How Long Does it Take You to Backslide?

[preacher4truth]

You certainly are on a very solid foundation if you base your personal Christianity on the Apostle to the Gentiles.
What is that, maybe 60 pages in most Bibles? Why not just read it and believe it. Why would anyone need someone
other than the Holy Spirit to TEACH you what you need to know?

Apostle Paul: "I am the apostle of the Gentiles" Rom 11:13
"I am... a teacher of the Gentiles" 1 Tim 2:7
"I am... a teacher of the Gentiles" 2 Tim 1:11
"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation" 1 Cor 3:10
Sounds like the Holy Spirit is trying to "make a point" for us "Gentiles". 2 Cor 13:1

I don't place my personal Chritianity on the Apostle to the Gentiles, but on the same Christ, Grace, and Gospel he did.

Why would anyone need someone other than the Holy Spirit to teach them? Well, because the same Holy Spirit had men write that some are "teachers" in Holy Scripture, as per Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; and they teach and equip the Saints.

 

[JesusFan]

Thanks for the "point by point" refutation, but it has no validity. I think that in some cases it could be considered Pharisaical to do so.
As well, it often simply a "misunderstanding" of terms - semantics - that leads to problems. I really don't have the time to fully explain
everything in a lengthy discourse. I'm writing of actual experience and not what someone has taught me other than the Holy Spirit.

Suffice it to say that I am a DISPENSATIONALIST.
For this reason, I completely ISOLATE the GENTILES; in particular
I consider the teaching of the "Apostle to the Gentiles" - Paul - to
the Gentile believers (aka: Church) to be a very SPECIFIC DISPENSATION
not to be confused with the teachings in the Gospels or Old Testament
or even the other APOSTLES of the N.T. The Epistles of Paul are to be
used as FOUNDATIONAL to Gentiles and all other scripture is to be evaluated
using the "Pauline test" as to its application to Gentiles. This eliminates serious
CONFUSION (which is clearly evident in this forum) in applying Scripture.
1 Cor 3:10, Rom 11:13, 1 Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 1:11

Actually, you are a "hyper" Dispy...

basically, you would tend to see ONLY Apostle paul theology valid and applicapable to us today ...

Even despite ALL of the Bible is profitable to us , to learn teach mature and prepare us to be effective for Chrsit...

Or are the other Apostles either NOT as inspired, or they wrote stuff that we do not need any more today?

 

[beameup]

I don't place my personal Chritianity on the Apostle to the Gentiles, but on the same Christ, Grace, and Gospel he did.

Why would anyone need someone other than the Holy Spirit to teach them? Well, because the same Holy Spirit had men write that some are "teachers" in Holy Scripture, as per Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; and they teach and equip the Saints.

No doubt, there was a "transition period" - a special "dispensation" if you will - between the Resurrection/Day of Pentecost/Jewish Church until
the completion and distribution of Paul's Epistles among the GENTILES (aka: "Church"). I'm sure that the early Church used the Septuagint, for example.
I'm speaking of the CURRENT CHURCH AGE where the Bible is fully circulated among the Gentile Church. see 1 Cor 3:10, Rom 11:13, 1 Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 1:11.
This current "Dispensation" will last until the Church is Raptured.

If this simple procedure was followed - placing of Paul's Epistles as "foundational" - it would remove a lot of confusion in the Church...
and put a lot of "pastors" out of a job.

 

[preacher4truth]

No doubt, there was a "transition period" - a special "dispensation" if you will - between the Resurrection/Day of Pentecost/Jewish Church until
the completion and distribution of Paul's Epistles among the GENTILES (aka: "Church"). I'm sure that the early Church used the Septuagint, for example.
I'm speaking of the CURRENT CHURCH AGE where the Bible is fully circulated among the Gentile Church. see 1 Cor 3:10, Rom 11:13, 1 Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 1:11.
This current "Dispensation" will last until the Church is Raptured.

If this simple procedure was followed - placing of Paul's Epistles as "foundational" - it would remove a lot of confusion in the Church...
and put a lot of "pastors" out of a job.

Um, no, I disagree with you there friend.

You said all we need is the Holy Spirit, but, He gave teachers. You skipped over that.

The church is to have pastors.

I'm on no agenda to discredit them. If that is necesarry, it's His job, not mine.

I think Camping teaches similar to this.

 

[DHK]

scripture please.

Man, even when saved, has two natures. He retain his sin nature. If he didn't the following statements and commands by Paul would all be moot and useless.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. (Romans 6:11-12)
--Why reckon my self to be dead to sin, if I have no sin nature? What a useless command this is.
--Don't let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey it...
Why? I don't have a sin nature, you say. I wouldn't obey it anyway.

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (Romans 7:14)
--A flat out statement. Paul is carnal. Was he lying?

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. (Romans 7:15-16)
--He did things he didn't want to do, and he didn't want to do the things he wanted to do. There was a continual battle going on within him, as there is in you, and in every believer. It is a battle between out two natures--the old vs. the new. What shall I do--Watch the TV vs. read the Bible. (only an example). We face battles every day. How to best use our time; battle of discipline; how not to let Satan get the best of us; how not to let our carnal nature rule over us.

Near the end of this chapter, Paul, in dire desperation cries out:
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Romans 7:24)
--He is a wretch, a wicked man. His carnal nature is winning over his new nature. Alas! What to do about it. Then he gives the answer:

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:25)
--The battle is in the mind. The victory is in Christ.
With my mind I serve the law of God.
With the flesh I serve the law of sin. The flesh is the carnal nature; that old sin nature that continues to raise its ugly head and causes the believer to backslide. Which one will the believer give into? Will he submit his mind to the Lord Jesus Christ, or allow his flesh to have the better of him? That choice is up to him. He will not lose his salvation. But he can become a carnal and backslidden Christian. The choice is his.

What about the believers that James was writing to? Is it possible for a Christian to actually become an enemy of God? Let's see:

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:4)
--God hates the world. If you are friends with the world then you are an enemy of God. You have had an affair. You have committed adultery against God. This is one of the most serious sins a believer can commit, and yet it is rampant in all of our churches--worldly and carnal believers.
They imitate the world.
They imitate the world's dress.
They imitate the world's music.
They imitate the world's amusements.
They "NEED" to have the world's goods.

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. (1 John 2:15-16)

Love not the world.
Be not conformed to the world.
If you are a friend of the world you are an enemy of God. You are a carnal and backslidden Christian.

 

[freeatlast]

Man, even when saved, has two natures. He retain his sin nature. If he didn't the following statements and commands by Paul would all be moot and useless.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. (Romans 6:11-12)
--Why reckon my self to be dead to sin, if I have no sin nature? What a useless command this is.
--Don't let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey it...
Why? I don't have a sin nature, you say. I wouldn't obey it anyway.

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (Romans 7:14)
--A flat out statement. Paul is carnal. Was he lying?

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. (Romans 7:15-16)
--He did things he didn't want to do, and he didn't want to do the things he wanted to do. There was a continual battle going on within him, as there is in you, and in every believer. It is a battle between out two natures--the old vs. the new. What shall I do--Watch the TV vs. read the Bible. (only an example). We face battles every day. How to best use our time; battle of discipline; how not to let Satan get the best of us; how not to let our carnal nature rule over us.

Near the end of this chapter, Paul, in dire desperation cries out:
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Romans 7:24)
--He is a wretch, a wicked man. His carnal nature is winning over his new nature. Alas! What to do about it. Then he gives the answer:

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:25)
--The battle is in the mind. The victory is in Christ.
With my mind I serve the law of God.
With the flesh I serve the law of sin. The flesh is the carnal nature; that old sin nature that continues to raise its ugly head and causes the believer to backslide. Which one will the believer give into? Will he submit his mind to the Lord Jesus Christ, or allow his flesh to have the better of him? That choice is up to him. He will not lose his salvation. But he can become a carnal and backslidden Christian. The choice is his.

What about the believers that James was writing to? Is it possible for a Christian to actually become an enemy of God? Let's see:

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:4)
--God hates the world. If you are friends with the world then you are an enemy of God. You have had an affair. You have committed adultery against God. This is one of the most serious sins a believer can commit, and yet it is rampant in all of our churches--worldly and carnal believers.
They imitate the world.
They imitate the world's dress.
They imitate the world's music.
They imitate the world's amusements.
They "NEED" to have the world's goods.

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. (1 John 2:15-16)

Love not the world.
Be not conformed to the world.
If you are a friend of the world you are an enemy of God. You are a carnal and backslidden Christian.

Those are all flesh passages not nature passages, no Christian can backslide (1John 3:9). Scripture says we are not longer slaves of sin and that is because we no longer have the nature we once had. We are left with one nature and the flesh to battle against with the nature.

 

[DHK]

Those are all flesh passages not nature passages, no Christian can backslide (1John 3:9). Scripture says we are not longer slaves of sin and that is because we no longer have the nature we once had. We are left with one nature and the flesh to battle against with the nature.

You still have a fleshly nature!
Do you want a relative to pinch you and find out your reaction?
Your flesh/meat is your body. Your flesh/nature is your reaction.

If we have no carnal/sin nature, only the most hardened rebels against Christ would not accept the Christian's offer of Christianity.
Here is what you could offer them.

If there is no sin nature:
--never any temptation to sin.
--sinless perfection (just like Jesus).
--never even one ungodly thought would I yield to.
--never an angry moment in my life I would have.
--all my emotions would always be in check.
--my marriage would always be in perfect harmony.
--never a lie to tell.
--never any deception of any kind.
--never an ugly post to write.

All in all I would be absolutely sinless just like Christ if I don't have a sin nature. If the sin nature is eradicated I have only the mind of Christ, and no carnality at all to deal with. Now that is something to offer to people!!
But alas, it is not true. We live in reality, not a dream world. We wait for the redemption of our bodies.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:23)

 

[beameup]

Actually, you are a "hyper" Dispy...

basically, you would tend to see ONLY Apostle paul theology valid and applicapable to us today ...

Even despite ALL of the Bible is profitable to us , to learn teach mature and prepare us to be effective for Chrsit...

Or are the other Apostles either NOT as inspired, or they wrote stuff that we do not need any more today?

No, actually there is only ONE dispensation that I'm interested in and that is the UNIQUE one I'm in where everyone is eternally saved through faith in Jesus Christ.
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Romans 11:25

I view the Epistles of Paul as FOUNDATIONAL to this current age of the Church. All other portions of scripture are viewed through the Gentile Epistles to eliminate "confusion".
"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation" - I Corinthians 3:10
I don't know how the Holy Spirit could be MORE CLEAR without screaming in your ear (like the sound of a "trumpet"). see 1 Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 1:11

Yes, "all the Bible" is important to us viewed through the lens of the Epistles to the Gentiles (this current age).

When I read in Matt 24 that I should: pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day, I immediately KNOW that it does NOT APPLY to me but instead, belongs to another "dispensation", if you will. Gentiles are not required to keep the Sabbath. During the Tribulation, JEWISH believers WILL keep the Sabbath like the early Church in Jerusalem (under Peter).

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Eph 4:11

Do we have apostles today?
Do we have prophets today?
Most would say no.
So what do we make of this?
Like I said before, there was a "transition" period at least until the Pauline Epistles were complete and widely circulated for the Gentile Church.

I don't follow Camping, however I do feel that most pastors (like Camping) haven't got a clue. This is probably because they are in fact "Carnal Christians". The times are evil and there are many false teachers/preachers. The Holy Spirit can be relied on to "guide us into all truth".

 

[freeatlast]

You still have a fleshly nature!
Do you want a relative to pinch you and find out your reaction?
Your flesh/meat is your body. Your flesh/nature is your reaction.

If we have no carnal/sin nature, only the most hardened rebels against Christ would not accept the Christian's offer of Christianity.
Here is what you could offer them.

If there is no sin nature:
--never any temptation to sin.
--sinless perfection (just like Jesus).
--never even one ungodly thought would I yield to.
--never an angry moment in my life I would have.
--all my emotions would always be in check.
--my marriage would always be in perfect harmony.
--never a lie to tell.
--never any deception of any kind.
--never an ugly post to write.

All in all I would be absolutely sinless just like Christ if I don't have a sin nature. If the sin nature is eradicated I have only the mind of Christ, and no carnality at all to deal with. Now that is something to offer to people!!
But alas, it is not true. We live in reality, not a dream world. We wait for the redemption of our bodies.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:23)

This started out as sin nature and now it is fleshly nature. I suppose if stated like that it would be acceptable as long as someone does not think that the flesh is greater then the new nature in us as all sin is a choice between giving in to the flesh or following our new nature.

 

[DHK]

Thanks for the "point by point" refutation, but it has no validity. I think that in some cases it could be considered Pharisaical to do so.

That is the nature of debate here--to refute or respond to each others points.

As well, it often simply a "misunderstanding" of terms - semantics - that leads to problems. I really don't have the time to fully explain
everything in a lengthy discourse. I'm writing of actual experience and not what someone has taught me other than the Holy Spirit.

You go to an independent Baptist church. You obviously have been taught by a pastor.

Suffice it to say that I am a DISPENSATIONALIST.

And so? What bearing does that have on this conversation. I am a dispensationalist also. Have you read the OP? You seem to be a bit off track here.

For this reason, I completely ISOLATE the GENTILES; in particular
I consider the teaching of the "Apostle to the Gentiles" - Paul - to
the Gentile believers (aka: Church) to be a very SPECIFIC DISPENSATION
not to be confused with the teachings in the Gospels or Old Testament
or even the other APOSTLES of the N.T. The Epistles of Paul are to be
used as FOUNDATIONAL to Gentiles and all other scripture is to be evaluated
using the "Pauline test" as to its application to Gentiles. This eliminates serious
CONFUSION (which is clearly evident in this forum) in applying Scripture.
1 Cor 3:10, Rom 11:13, 1 Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 1:11

And what has all of that to do with whether or not a believer is carnal or can backslide? Again, did you read the OP? Have you been following the discussion?

The Title of this thread is:How Long Does it Take You to Backslide?

 

[righteousdude2]

Amen to that...

No, actually there is only ONE dispensation that I'm interested in and that is the UNIQUE one I'm in where everyone is eternally saved through faith in Jesus Christ.
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Romans 11:25

I view the Epistles of Paul as FOUNDATIONAL to this current age of the Church. All other portions of scripture are viewed through the Gentile Epistles to eliminate "confusion".
"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation" - I Corinthians 3:10
I don't know how the Holy Spirit could be MORE CLEAR without screaming in your ear (like the sound of a "trumpet"). see 1 Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 1:11

Yes, "all the Bible" is important to us viewed through the lens of the Epistles to the Gentiles (this current age).

When I read in Matt 24 that I should: pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day, I immediately KNOW that it does NOT APPLY to me but instead, belongs to another "dispensation", if you will. Gentiles are not required to keep the Sabbath. During the Tribulation, JEWISH believers WILL keep the Sabbath like the early Church in Jerusalem (under Peter).

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Eph 4:11

Do we have apostles today?
Do we have prophets today?
Most would say no.
So what do we make of this?
Like I said before, there was a "transition" period at least until the Pauline Epistles were complete and widely circulated for the Gentile Church.

I don't follow Camping, however I do feel that most pastors (like Camping) haven't got a clue. This is probably because they are in fact "Carnal Christians". The times are evil and there are many false teachers/preachers. The Holy Spirit can be relied on to "guide us into all truth".

....without the HS/HG we would be without defense, leadership, nuturing, feeding, infilling, knowledge, comfort, love, etc. I thank God for sending to each of us the HS, and the gifts He imparts. The armor Paul says we need to put on and wear each day is all HS supplied. Without the armor, we are hopelessly left to wander this world and be easy pickings to the devil and his minions.

 

[DHK]

This started out as sin nature and now it is fleshly nature. I suppose if stated like that it would be acceptable as long as someone does not think that the flesh is greater then the new nature in us as all sin is a choice between giving in to the flesh or following our new nature.

We have to define terms.
The word trinity is not in the Bible but we believe in it.
We don't find the exact term "sin nature" either.
But we do find terms such as "carnal," "in the flesh," "old nature" etc.

It stands reason to believe that if we have a new nature we also have an old nature, that old nature being our sin nature.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
--A new creature, yes; but we still have an old nature.

1Cor. 15:31, Paul said, "I die daily." Why? If there is no sin nature, to what does he die to? Every day he must put the old man, that old sin nature to death.

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Ephesians 4:24)
--Something we must do daily.

This is contrast to:
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; (Ephesians 4:22)
--We have both natures. He is writing to believers. Every day put off the old man (sin nature); but on the new man.

Yield yourself to Christ; deny yourself of sin and the world.

 

[preacher4truth]

We have to define terms.
The word trinity is not in the Bible but we believe in it.
We don't find the exact term "sin nature" either.
But we do find terms such as "carnal," "in the flesh," "old nature" etc.

It stands reason to believe that if we have a new nature we also have an old nature, that old nature being our sin nature.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
--A new creature, yes; but we still have an old nature.

1Cor. 15:31, Paul said, "I die daily." Why? If there is no sin nature, to what does he die to? Every day he must put the old man, that old sin nature to death.

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Ephesians 4:24)
--Something we must do daily.

This is contrast to:
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; (Ephesians 4:22)
--We have both natures. He is writing to believers. Every day put off the old man (sin nature); but on the new man.

Yield yourself to Christ; deny yourself of sin and the world.

We are told to "put off the old man" (self) which is the old nature, and put on the new self.

Eph 4:22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
Eph 4:23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Eph 4:24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

 

[beameup]

That is the nature of debate here--to refute or respond to each others points.
You go to an independent Baptist church. You obviously have been taught by a pastor.
And so? What bearing does that have on this conversation. I am a dispensationalist also. Have you read the OP? You seem to be a bit off track here.
And what has all of that to do with whether or not a believer is carnal or can backslide? Again, did you read the OP? Have you been following the discussion?

The Title of this thread is:How Long Does it Take You to Backslide?

"Backsliding" is not a Pauline doctrine. In the case of the Corinthian
Christians, they never made the "transition" from newborn "babies" in
Christ to being Spiritual Christians. Instead they, like most Christians
I have known, have been "stuck" in Carnality. The desires of this world -
obtaining possessions, desire for sensual satisfaction, etc. - prevent us
from "walking in the Spirit". A Christian may be intelligent and very well
versed in Scripture and even be a Seminary Graduate, but never have
"the mind of Christ". Only the Holy Spirit can impart WISDOM.
The proud need not apply.

There are only three "states": Natural > Carnal (Worldly, Ego Centered) > Spiritual.


Now, "walking in the Spirit" does not mean that we have somehow obtained "sinlessness".
It means that we have FULL CONFIDENCE in our eternal security and do not "listen to the accuser of the brethren" (Devil) -
but instead move on undeterred "walking with the Lord" and avoid consciously, purposefully SINNING.
1 Cor 2:16 - For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him?
But we [who are spiritual] have the mind of Christ.

 

[freeatlast]

We have to define terms.
The word trinity is not in the Bible but we believe in it.
We don't find the exact term "sin nature" either.
But we do find terms such as "carnal," "in the flesh," "old nature" etc.

It stands reason to believe that if we have a new nature we also have an old nature, that old nature being our sin nature.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
--A new creature, yes; but we still have an old nature.

1Cor. 15:31, Paul said, "I die daily." Why? If there is no sin nature, to what does he die to? Every day he must put the old man, that old sin nature to death.

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Ephesians 4:24)
--Something we must do daily.

This is contrast to:
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; (Ephesians 4:22)
--We have both natures. He is writing to believers. Every day put off the old man (sin nature); but on the new man.

Yield yourself to Christ; deny yourself of sin and the world.

I feel because of the term sin nature it sends an incorrect message. Everyone I have ever spoken about this hold it is a part of us within and that it is more then we can control so we all sin every day is the claim and it renders confession void. By the way not all believers sin every day and no believer should.

If you look at it this way perhaps it is better seen. A dog has a nature to do..... fill in the blanks. A hog has a nature to ..... fill in the blanks. A bird has a nature to... fill in the blanks and so on and there is no way to overcome their nature. A new nature requires a new creation.
When it comes to sinful man we are told we are born in sin and that is our nature, to sin. While lost we can do nothing except sin and even the good we think we do is sin because it is done with the wrong motive which has to be to please and honor the Lord. The lost cannot do that. So while lost we sin because that is the nature of the creature. The lost are not lost because they have flesh nor is the flesh the reason they sin as sin comes from the heart and seen in the flesh. The flesh is simply an avenue to carry out the hearts nature.

However after salvation that nature is dead as we are dead to sin and alive to righteousness with a new heart or nature. What we have been left with however is the flesh to deal with while we are waiting for a new body. Our flesh is not our nature, (new wine has been put into old wineskins and one day they will burts assunder) but because we are in it we do have to battle against. In fact our now new nature, the only nature we have left, requires that of us (In other words that is what is natural now for the believer)and thus the reason for what is written in 1John 3. So we do not have two natures residing within us and calling the flesh our nature is simply improper and confusing. We have one new nature battling the flesh as the old sin nature is dead since we are alive to Christ.

 

[DHK]

"Backsliding" is not a Pauline doctrine.

Your opinion. Not necessarily Biblical.
The English language has increased its vocabulary since the 400 year span from when the KJV was written. Even so the word "backsliding" is in the Bible. And there is more in the Bible than 13 books. It seems as if you are missing 53 of them. A person missing 53 books is not likely to have a Biblical doctrine as he does not have all the Scripture at hand.

In the case of the Corinthian
Christians, they never made the "transition" from newborn "babies" in Christ to being Spiritual Christians.

Yes, in 1Cor.3:1-5 Paul calls them carnal.
In the first chapter he calls them saints.

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (1 Corinthians 1:2)
--Who were these people?
They are sanctified in Christ.
They are called to be saints.
--Compare Scripture with Scripture. These are saints in Christ, but they are carnal.

Instead they, like most Christians
I have known, have been "stuck" in Carnality. The desires of this world -obtaining possessions, desire for sensual satisfaction, etc. - prevent us from "walking in the Spirit".

First, you don't know most Christians. I'm taking a well-educated guess and say that you know a very low percentage of the Christians of the world.
Second, Paul was addressing the problems of the believers in the Corinthian church. It is true that many believers today have those same problems, but not all. It is wise not to make sweeping generalizations. If any of the things you read in Scripture apply to you than you need to make those personal applications.

A Christian may be intelligent and very well
versed in Scripture and even be a Seminary Graduate, but never have "the mind of Christ". Only the Holy Spirit can impart WISDOM. The proud need not apply.

Be careful how you word your posts. You might want to look in the mirror, or at least practice what you preach.

There are only three "states": Natural > Carnal (Worldly) > Spiritual.

1. 1Cor.2:14 speaks of the natural man. He is unsaved.
2. 1Cor.3:1-5 speaks of the carnal man. He is saved, but not living for the Lord. Paul says of him that he needs to be fed with milk and cannot be fed yet with meat.
3. 1Cor.2:15 speaks of the one that is spiritual and is able to judge all things.

 

[freeatlast]

1. 1Cor.2:14 speaks of the natural man. He is unsaved.
I agree.

2. 1Cor.3:1-5 speaks of the carnal man. He is saved, but not living for the Lord. Paul says of him that he needs to be fed with milk and cannot be fed yet with meat.
I disagree. To say they are not living for the Lord is too strong and sounds like they are living (practicing) in sin (moral sins) That is not the case. The problem is pride and because of it they have envying, and strife, and divisions so Paul takes them back to the A,B,C's.

3. 1Cor.2:15 speaks of the one that is spiritual and is able to judge all things.
Yes I agree

1 Corinthians 1:2
is a general statement and salutation with no exact claim to their salvation intended. Paul is not suggesting they ALL are saved. We know that because of what we call 2Cor and the last chapter when he questions their salvation.

 

[DHK]

However after salvation that nature is dead as we are dead to sin and alive to righteousness with a new heart or nature.

You are not dead to sin. You are to act as if you are dead to sin. If you really were dead to sin, you really would be dead to sin and you would never, never sin any more. But quite frankly I have seen sin in posts made on the board. It becomes my duty to edit them. We all sin. It is in our nature to do so.
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

What we have been left with however is the flesh to deal with while we are waiting for a new body. Our flesh is not our nature, (new wine has been put into old wineskins and one day they will burts assunder) but because we are in it we do have to battle against.

Flesh is used in two ways:
1. It is your actual flesh = meat.
2. It is your nature. The Bible teaches this.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Romans 8:5-6)
--The fleshly nature and the carnal nature are the same thing. They both lead to death. What is spoken of is the sin nature. And that sin nature dwells in you. It is not eradicated. You still have it. You still sin. You are not sinless like Christ.

In fact our now new nature, the only nature we have left, requires that of us (In other words that is what is natural now for the believer)and thus the reason for what is written in 1John 3. So we do not have two natures residing within us and calling the flesh our nature is simply improper and confusing. We have one new nature battling the flesh as the old sin nature is dead since we are alive to Christ.

What did John write:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

These are clear statements that we do sin. If we deny it we make Christ a liar and his word is not in us. We also are deceiving us. The reason we sin is because we have a sin nature.

Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,
Prone to leave the God I love;
Here’s my heart, O take and seal it,
Seal it for Thy courts above.

The hymn writer put it well. Our hearts are prone to wander, wander and leave the God we love--a direct result of our sin nature.

I believe you are not reading my posts.
You don't respond to Romans 7.
Paul said clearly:
I am carnal sold under sin.
I have a sin nature and am sold under sin.
He said this as a believer describing his struggle with his sin nature.

 

[DHK]

2. 1Cor.3:1-5 speaks of the carnal man. He is saved, but not living for the Lord. Paul says of him that he needs to be fed with milk and cannot be fed yet with meat.
I disagree. To say they are not living for the Lord is too strong and sounds like they are living (practicing) in sin (moral sins) That is not the case. The problem is pride and because of it they have envying, and strife, and divisions so Paul takes them back to the A,B,C's.

If there is envy, strife, divisions, and pride, then they are not living for the Lord. The rest of the chapter goes on and demonstrates this. Chapter five even mentions how there was immorality being condoned instead of being condemned in the church.

 

[beameup]

First, you don't know most Christians. I'm taking a well-educated guess and say that you know a very low percentage of the Christians of the world.

Like I said, you come off as very "judgemental" (I think I used the word "Pharisaical").

Perhaps you failed to follow my previous posts? There is a logical sequence.

"Backsliding" is not a Pauline doctrine. In the case of the Corinthian
Christians, they never made the "transition" from newborn "babies" in
Christ to being Spiritual Christians. Instead they, like most Christians
I have known, have been "stuck" in Carnality. The desires of this world -
obtaining possessions, desire for sensual satisfaction, etc. - prevent us
from "walking in the Spirit". A Christian may be intelligent and very well
versed in Scripture and even be a Seminary Graduate, but never have
"the mind of Christ". Only the Holy Spirit can impart WISDOM.
The proud need not apply.

There are only three "states": Natural > Carnal (Worldly, Ego Centered) > Spiritual.

1 Cor 2:15