How Long Does it Take You to Backslide?

[preacher4truth]

Of course we do. Paul spends the entire seventh chapter of Romans describing the struggle between his new nature and that old sinful nature. He does the things that he doesn't want to do, and the things he doesn't want to do those he does. It is a battle between two natures which we all have.

I find it interesting that John MacArthur Jr. doesn't seem to believe in the two natures, according to:

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/1natjm01.htm

- Peace

 

[JesusFan]

I find it interesting that John MacArthur Jr. doesn't seem to believe in the two natures, according to:

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/1natjm01.htm

- Peace

guess that IF one has to choose between inspired Apostle Paul or John, have to go with Paul!

And per the OP...

In a sense, all of us are "backslidding" on/off again throughout our day, as our thoughts would cause God to condemn us, BUT thank God those who are in Christ jesus will not have condemnation by God, as we are now found in the beloved!

And just HOW some Christians see this as being a "liceanse" to sin is neyond me!

 

[DHK]

I find it interesting that John MacArthur Jr. doesn't seem to believe in the two natures, according to:

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/1natjm01.htm

- Peace

I didn't read it all, but I could see why he takes that position. If he didn't it would conflict with his errant position on Lordship salvation. See how one wrong doctrine leads to another. BTW, Lordship salvation leads to a works-based salvation.

Here is a simple refutation of Lordship salvation via an illustration. If you lived in the time of King James, during the 17th century, a time when the power of the nation resided with the monarchy, then King James would be your Lord, your Sovereign. He is the King and sovereign lord of Great Britain, and you his loyal subject. If you are a citizen there, there is nothing you can do to change that fact. He is your lord. And you must address him as such.
Now you have two choices. You, like most citizens, can be a good and respectable citizen and honor your country and your king. Or, you can be an outlaw and have no respect for your country and your king. If you rebel against your king, he is still your Lord. No matter what you do, King James is still your lord and king. In the latter situation, you have simply become rebellious. In some situations he may even send forth his army and put you in jail to teach you a lesson. (chastisement). He is your lord and you are a citizen--rebellious or not, the king remains your lord.

When you got saved Christ became your Lord. You don't need to make him your Lord. He is your Lord. There is no such thing as Lordship salvation. There is a matter of submitting to his authority and rebelling against him. That has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with our sanctification in Christ, our obedience to him. At salvation, and all throughout the Christian life, Christ is Lord! and always will be. There is nothing that we can do to change the fact that Christ is Lord of the believer's life.

MacArthur doesn't teach that. He teaches an unscriptural view of salvation.

 

[JesusFan]

I didn't read it all, but I could see why he takes that position. If he didn't it would conflict with his errant position on Lordship salvation. See how one wrong doctrine leads to another. BTW, Lordship salvation leads to a works-based salvation.

Here is a simple refutation of Lordship salvation via an illustration. If you lived in the time of King James, during the 17th century, a time when the power of the nation resided with the monarchy, then King James would be your Lord, your Sovereign. He is the King and sovereign lord of Great Britain, and you his loyal subject. If you are a citizen there, there is nothing you can do to change that fact. He is your lord. And you must address him as such.
Now you have two choices. You, like most citizens, can be a good and respectable citizen and honor your country and your king. Or, you can be an outlaw and have no respect for your country and your king. If you rebel against your king, he is still your Lord. No matter what you do, King James is still your lord and king. In the latter situation, you have simply become rebellious. In some situations he may even send forth his army and put you in jail to teach you a lesson. (chastisement). He is your lord and you are a citizen--rebellious or not, the king remains your lord.

When you got saved Christ became your Lord. You don't need to make him your Lord. He is your Lord. There is no such thing as Lordship salvation. There is a matter of submitting to his authority and rebelling against him. That has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with our sanctification in Christ, our obedience to him. At salvation, and all throughout the Christian life, Christ is Lord! and always will be. There is nothing that we can do to change the fact that Christ is Lord of the believer's life.

MacArthur doesn't teach that. He teaches an unscriptural view of salvation.

think that more accurate to say that he teaches an unbiblical view of sanctification...

His salvation is right on about HOW one comes a Christian, but quite faulty on process After one is saved!

Think BOTH "Free Grace/Lordship" have problems in their understanding, as Free Grace can lead one to trust in emotional responses for true salvation, while in lordship, one never knows if one has made jesus "lord enough" to be really saved!

 

[DHK]

think that more accurate to say that he teaches an unbiblical view of sanctification...

His salvation is right on about HOW one comes a Christian, but quite faulty on process After one is saved!

Think BOTH "Free Grace/Lordship" have problems in their understanding, as Free Grace can lead one to trust in emotional responses for true salvation, while in lordship, one never knows if one has made jesus "lord enough" to be really saved!

The Bible simply says:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. (in its most basic summary)

To believe--have faith.
This is not a mental consent or just knowledge. It is faith/confidence in the word and work of Christ that it is true.
Faith has an object. The object of one's faith must be Christ--not emotion (as you suggest), or "for parent's sake," or because of peers, etc. The object of faith must be Christ and Christ alone.
The result of faith is salvation. Emotion is (joy and peace) may or may not be present. If they are it is an extra added bonus. If the Calvinist denies any emotion at salvation are they really saved? We are a new creature in Christ. There ought to be some difference.

In Lordship salvation the verses that are applied to discipleship are applied to salvation.
Whosoever forsakes not all that he has cannot be my disciple.
Whosoever puts his hand to the plow and looks back cannot be my disciple.
Whoso hates not mother and father...cannot be my disciple.

What new believer can do all these things? None of them.
If these are required for salvation, then salvation is a religion of works.
If one looks at a new Christians, just after receiving Christ and determines that if these are not present and therefore the person is not saved, he has a religion of works. He has made these marks as his determining marks of whether or not a person is saved or not, and therefore salvation is based on works.

He has disregarded that each one of these commands are commands for disciples, not for those coming to Christ.
He has disregarded the fact that there are carnal Christians. (1Cor.3:1-5)
He has disregarded the fact that it is possible for a believer to backslide.
He has set himself in the place of god judging who is a believer and who is not. The Lord knows them that are his. We don't know. Only God knows the heart. There are carnal Christians as there were in the Corinthian church. We cannot know if that person is carnal or unsaved. Our duty is to deal with their needs on a one-to-one basis, meeting their individual spiritual needs, being a witness of the grace and glory of Christ.

 

[beameup]

"backsliding" or being "backslidden" is not a scriptural concept for the Church.
Upon conversion, you need to really believe in the promises of God and your eternal security. You can "frontslide" into truly walking in the Spirit.
Once you are "Walking in the Spirit" you can be constantly guided by the Spirit. If you opt to "Walk in the Flesh" then you have not surrendered
your self/ego to the Holy Spirit but instead are making your own decisions without the benefit of guidance just like you did before you were SAVED.

Sadly, probably 90% of Christians in the churches are living with Christ "in their lives" but still GUIDED by the Self/Ego. It is pretty obvious
when looking at the posts on this forum. It took me 40 years to arrive at "Walking in the Spirit" but I would never even consider returning to
making all my own decisions and walking around in a state of uncertainty and confusion which will only produce "wood, hay, and stubble" in the end.

During the Tribulation, as it was before the Church age, people will be able to "lose" the Holy Spirit and thus their salvation - he that endureth until the end (death/martyrdom/return of Christ) shall be saved.

Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 - Pretty "solid" IMO.

 

[JesusFan]

The Bible simply says:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. (in its most basic summary)

To believe--have faith.
This is not a mental consent or just knowledge. It is faith/confidence in the word and work of Christ that it is true.
Faith has an object. The object of one's faith must be Christ--not emotion (as you suggest), or "for parent's sake," or because of peers, etc. The object of faith must be Christ and Christ alone.
The result of faith is salvation. Emotion is (joy and peace) may or may not be present. If they are it is an extra added bonus. If the Calvinist denies any emotion at salvation are they really saved? We are a new creature in Christ. There ought to be some difference.

In Lordship salvation the verses that are applied to discipleship are applied to salvation.
Whosoever forsakes not all that he has cannot be my disciple.
Whosoever puts his hand to the plow and looks back cannot be my disciple.
Whoso hates not mother and father...cannot be my disciple.

What new believer can do all these things? None of them.
If these are required for salvation, then salvation is a religion of works.
If one looks at a new Christians, just after receiving Christ and determines that if these are not present and therefore the person is not saved, he has a religion of works. He has made these marks as his determining marks of whether or not a person is saved or not, and therefore salvation is based on works.

He has disregarded that each one of these commands are commands for disciples, not for those coming to Christ.
He has disregarded the fact that there are carnal Christians. (1Cor.3:1-5)
He has disregarded the fact that it is possible for a believer to backslide.
He has set himself in the place of god judging who is a believer and who is not. The Lord knows them that are his. We don't know. Only God knows the heart. There are carnal Christians as there were in the Corinthian church. We cannot know if that person is carnal or unsaved. Our duty is to deal with their needs on a one-to-one basis, meeting their individual spiritual needs, being a witness of the grace and glory of Christ.

So are ytoyu now saying John macarthur teaches/preaches a "fasle Gospel" message? that he might not even be a 'genuine" Christian?

 

[JesusFan]

"backsliding" or being "backslidden" is not a scriptural concept for the Church.
Upon conversion, you need to really believe in the promises of God and your eternal security. You can "frontslide" into truly walking in the Spirit.
Once you are "Walking in the Spirit" you can be constantly guided by the Spirit. If you opt to "Walk in the Flesh" then you have not surrendered
your self/ego to the Holy Spirit but instead are making your own decisions without the benefit of guidance just like you did before you were SAVED.

Sadly, probably 90% of Christians in the churches are living with Christ "in their lives" but still GUIDED by the Self/Ego. It is pretty obvious
when looking at the posts on this forum. It took me 40 years to arrive at "Walking in the Spirit" but I would never even consider returning to
making all my own decisions and walking around in a state of uncertainty and confusion which will only produce "wood, hay, and stubble" in the end.

During the Tribulation, as it was before the Church age, people will be able to "lose" the Holy Spirit and thus their salvation.

there is NOT any verse supporting notion true believers lost their salvation, wither in OT/NT revelation times!

And there will be many true Christians who will fail to live up to what God has provided for them thru the Cross, and in power/person of the HS..

Some through igormance of their position in Christ and HS enabling power, others just wanting to live partially for jesus, wanting to walk both sides of the fence!

 

[humblethinker]

There are so many semantics issues going on with this thread that it is hard to post an opinion with confidence that it would have a good chance to be clearly understood as I intended.

 

[DHK]

"backsliding" or being "backslidden" is not a scriptural concept for the Church.

That is your opinion. Who said it isn't. Unlike the word "trinity" the word is found in the Bible. As Paul spoke to the believers at Corinth he called them "carnal." He said that he had wanted to feed them with meat of God's word but couldn't. They were carnal, and backslidden, so much so, that he had to feed them with milk.

Upon conversion, you need to really believe in the promises of God and your eternal security. You can "frontslide" into truly walking in the Spirit.

You can, and should, but that doesn't mean you will. The Corinthians did not, and were thus rebuked for it.

Once you are "Walking in the Spirit" you can be constantly guided by the Spirit. If you opt to "Walk in the Flesh" then you have not surrendered
your self/ego to the Holy Spirit but instead are making your own decisions without the benefit of guidance just like you did before you were SAVED.

That is true. But that doesn't mean you are not saved. It means you are carnal/backslidden. You are not the one to judge the heart. The Lord knows them that are his. Consider:
Peter denied the Lord three times. Was he not still saved.
Paul withstood Peter to the face--rebuked him sharply for his hypocrisy. Did Peter lose his salvation then?
Paul and Barnabas had a heated argument so hot that they parted ways. They no longer could travel with each other.
--People, even the most spiritual sin. There are times when they don't walk in the Spirit. There are times when they act in the flesh and are carnal. The Bible bears this out.

Sadly, probably 90% of Christians in the churches are living with Christ "in their lives" but still GUIDED by the Self/Ego. It is pretty obvious
when looking at the posts on this forum. It took me 40 years to arrive at "Walking in the Spirit" but I would never even consider returning to
making all my own decisions and walking around in a state of uncertainty and confusion which will only produce "wood, hay, and stubble" in the end.

And? Will you reach "sinless perfection"?

During the Tribulation, as it was before the Church age, people will be able to "lose" the Holy Spirit and thus their salvation - he that endureth until the end (death/martyrdom/return of Christ) shall be saved.

Nowhere does the Bible teach that a believer will be able to lose his salvation. You are teaching a works-based salvation here. Salvation is all of grace.

 

[freeatlast]

I find it interesting that John MacArthur Jr. doesn't seem to believe in the two natures, according to:

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/1natjm01.htm

- Peace

There is good reason and that is because there is not two. The two natures thing is nothing but an excuse to sin.

 

[DHK]

So are ytoyu now saying John macarthur teaches/preaches a "fasle Gospel" message? that he might not even be a 'genuine" Christian?

I don't question his salvation at all.
I believe that message of Lordship salvation is in error as to what is taught in the Bible.

 

[DHK]

There is good reason and that is because there is not two. The two natures thing is nothing but an excuse to sin.

That is an absolutely false statement.
If I set two things in front of you. One good and the other bad. Because there is a bad choice in front of you does that mean you have an excuse to make wrong choices. No it doesn't. The Bible teaches we have a sin nature and that sin nature will not be eradicated until we get to heaven.

We wait for the redemption of our bodies.

 

[beameup]

You certainly are on a very solid foundation if you base your personal Christianity on the Apostle to the Gentiles.
What is that, maybe 60 pages in most Bibles? Why not just read it and believe it. Why would anyone need someone
other than the Holy Spirit to TEACH you what you need to know?

Apostle Paul: "I am the apostle of the Gentiles" Rom 11:13
"I am... a teacher of the Gentiles" 1 Tim 2:7
"I am... a teacher of the Gentiles" 2 Tim 1:11
"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation" 1 Cor 3:10
Sounds like the Holy Spirit is trying to "make a point" for us "Gentiles". 2 Cor 13:1

guess that IF one has to choose between inspired Apostle Paul or John, have to go with Paul!

And per the OP...

In a sense, all of us are "backslidding" on/off again throughout our day, as our thoughts would cause God to condemn us, BUT thank God those who are in Christ jesus will not have condemnation by God, as we are now found in the beloved!

And just HOW some Christians see this as being a "liceanse" to sin is neyond me!

 

[JesusFan]

There is good reason and that is because there is not two. The two natures thing is nothing but an excuse to sin.

Apostle paul taught that it was a fact of the Christian life...

Would the same guy that was inspired to write "God forbid" to having a liceanse to keep sinning teach dual natures if NOT true?

 

[JesusFan]

I don't question his salvation at all.
I believe that message of Lordship salvation is in error as to what is taught in the Bible.

Totally agree on both statements!

 

[JesusFan]

You certainly are on a very solid foundation if you base your personal Christianity on the Apostle to the Gentiles.
What is that, maybe 60 pages in most Bibles? Why not just read it and believe it. Why would anyone need someone
other than the Holy Spirit to TEACH you what you need to know?

Apostle Paul: "I am the apostle of the Gentiles" Rom 11:13
"I am... a teacher of the Gentiles" 1 Tim 2:7
"I am... a teacher of the Gentiles" 2 Tim 1:11
"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation" 1 Cor 3:10
Sounds like the Holy Spirit is trying to "make a point" for us "Gentiles". 2 Cor 13:1

Just curious...

What was/is "the point" HS thru Apostle paul trying to teach us then?

 

[freeatlast]

That is an absolutely false statement.
If I set two things in front of you. One good and the other bad. Because there is a bad choice in front of you does that mean you have an excuse to make wrong choices. No it doesn't. The Bible teaches we have a sin nature and that sin nature will not be eradicated until we get to heaven.

We wait for the redemption of our bodies.

scripture please.

 

[freeatlast]

Apostle paul taught that it was a fact of the Christian life...

Would the same guy that was inspired to write "God forbid" to having a liceanse to keep sinning teach dual natures if NOT true?

No two natures. We are left with the flesh not a sin nature as when using the term it nature lends itself as what is natural and practiced and according to scripture sin is not natuiral or practiced for the believer.Our battle is whith the flesh, not some nature. We do not have two natures.

 

[beameup]

That is your opinion. Who said it isn't. Unlike the word "trinity" the word is found in the Bible. As Paul spoke to the believers at Corinth he called them "carnal." He said that he had wanted to feed them with meat of God's word but couldn't. They were carnal, and backslidden, so much so, that he had to feed them with milk.

You can, and should, but that doesn't mean you will. The Corinthians did not, and were thus rebuked for it.

That is true. But that doesn't mean you are not saved. It means you are carnal/backslidden. You are not the one to judge the heart. The Lord knows them that are his. Consider:
Peter denied the Lord three times. Was he not still saved.
Paul withstood Peter to the face--rebuked him sharply for his hypocrisy. Did Peter lose his salvation then?
Paul and Barnabas had a heated argument so hot that they parted ways. They no longer could travel with each other.
--People, even the most spiritual sin. There are times when they don't walk in the Spirit. There are times when they act in the flesh and are carnal. The Bible bears this out.

And? Will you reach "sinless perfection"?

Nowhere does the Bible teach that a believer will be able to lose his salvation. You are teaching a works-based salvation here. Salvation is all of grace.

Thanks for the "point by point" refutation, but it has no validity. I think that in some cases it could be considered Pharisaical to do so.
As well, it often simply a "misunderstanding" of terms - semantics - that leads to problems. I really don't have the time to fully explain
everything in a lengthy discourse. I'm writing of actual experience and not what someone has taught me other than the Holy Spirit.

Suffice it to say that I am a DISPENSATIONALIST.
For this reason, I completely ISOLATE the GENTILES; in particular
I consider the teaching of the "Apostle to the Gentiles" - Paul - to
the Gentile believers (aka: Church) to be a very SPECIFIC DISPENSATION
not to be confused with the teachings in the Gospels or Old Testament
or even the other APOSTLES of the N.T. The Epistles of Paul are to be
used as FOUNDATIONAL to Gentiles and all other scripture is to be evaluated
using the "Pauline test" as to its application to Gentiles. This eliminates serious
CONFUSION (which is clearly evident in this forum) in applying Scripture.
1 Cor 3:10, Rom 11:13, 1 Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 1:11