How Long Does it Take You to Backslide?

[Dr. Bob]

Okay, you and Iconclast have given me some things to think about, but I'm not convinced yet.

Take a minute and look up the actual Hebrew words in your lexicon (don't use the Strong's mini-definition as that is like a readers digest version of a real book). You will see that the modern misuse of the term "backsliding" has nothing to do with God's Word.

Don't let me convince you. Look at God's actual inspired words and see what HE had to say.

(Of course, HE will agree with me . . but modesty forbids me mentioning that)

:laugh:

 

[freeatlast]

This is the correct biblical teaching expressed here. The word is used 17 times in the OT.....16 of the 17 were used for apostate rebellious Israel as a nation....once for an individual use, but that person was also in rebellion and apostasy.

many sermons are made about the christian who slacks off for awhile...in a loose sense by way of application all sin is a minny apostasy.
True believers can never be said to be backslidden in a technical sense of the word the way God has used it.
there are" no backslidden," or "carnal christians'
Sin in the life is to be repented of......carnality in the life is sin...not a biblical lifestyle

The one time the scripture is using the person it is using him as a picture of Israel. In every instance the word is used to speak of a people who had never been saved.

 

[preacher4truth]

....on how far down the slippery slope (of sin) goes. :wavey:

Sorry, I couldn't let that slide by! You pose an interesting question, and I never thought of backsliding in time increments. However, put the way you put it, it makes sense.

Since I've written my book, which contains the story of my 15 year slide from grace, I no longer refer to this sin as backsliding.

I now refer to it as "going Prodigal!"

Because in my 15 year walk from grace, I never once felt that I wasn't sinning. I was miserable, and highly aware of my wrong choices, and all that time. I never forgot my Father and His house and how comfortable and safe I'd be if only I'd return. However, pride, and tremendous guilt kept me away for 15 years, and I only considered going home once I was so deep in the mire of sin, that I knew, like the Prodigal Son, that at least my Father home would be much better than where I had slid to.

Been there brother.


By the way to whom it matters, this OP isn't written in a technical term of backsliding, as "apostatizing" from the faith, but in a more liberal term of breaking off clean fellowship with God and are not walking as close as we were in the past, we've "gotten away" from God in a sense as far as close fellowship and zeal.

Of course most of us have see a preacher manipulate others with terms. We were recently at a service where the preacher used Hebrews 10:26 to mean that if a believer ever commits a willful sin, or if they are in a willful sin presently, there is no more sacrifice for their sins, but then, he invited "them" to fill the altar and ask for forgiveness, so obviously there was "sacrifice" for sin still available! Uh?

The altar was pretty much filled. I don't know what they all "did," but that's what happened.

I've seen Hebrews 10:26 used like this too often. Also, tehre was no background, context, exposition, nothing. Just a text and a tirade really.

My intentions of the OP are not meant to be so technical. It has to do with our fellowship, are we sliding back, or pressing on and staying in clean fellowship, not if we've apostatized from the faith.

Also, Righteousdude, let me know about your book if you don't mind. Thanks.

- Peace

 

[freeatlast]

....on how far down the slippery slope (of sin) goes. :wavey:

Sorry, I couldn't let that slide by! You pose an interesting question, and I never thought of backsliding in time increments. However, put the way you put it, it makes sense.

Since I've written my book, which contains the story of my 15 year slide from grace, I no longer refer to this sin as backsliding.

I now refer to it as "going Prodigal!"

Because in my 15 year walk from grace, I never once felt that I wasn't sinning. I was miserable, and highly aware of my wrong choices, and all that time. I never forgot my Father and His house and how comfortable and safe I'd be if only I'd return. However, pride, and tremendous guilt kept me away for 15 years, and I only considered going home once I was so deep in the mire of sin, that I knew, like the Prodigal Son, that at least my Father home would be much better than where I had slid to.

My friend the prodigal was lost. That is not a guess that is what scripture says.
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Secondly claiming that any born again believer can live daily in the practice of sin makes 1John incorrect.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
We can know the real and the false. The problem is that because of faulty preaching and teaching many have made professions and never gotten saved so the lost do not know they are lost.

 

[JesusFan]

Been there brother.


By the way to whom it matters, this OP isn't written in a technical term of backsliding, as "apostatizing" from the faith, but in a more liberal term of breaking off clean fellowship with God and are not walking as close as we were in the past, we've "gotten away" from God in a sense as far as close fellowship and zeal.

Of course most of us have see a preacher manipulate others with terms. We were recently at a service where the preacher used Hebrews 10:26 to mean that if a believer ever commits a willful sin, or if they are in a willful sin presently, there is no more sacrifice for their sins, but then, he invited "them" to fill the altar and ask for forgiveness, so obviously there was "sacrifice" for sin still available! Uh?

The altar was pretty much filled. I don't know what they all "did," but that's what happened.

I've seen Hebrews 10:26 used like this too often. Also, tehre was no background, context, exposition, nothing. Just a text and a tirade really.

My intentions of the OP are not meant to be so technical. It has to do with our fellowship, are we sliding back, or pressing on and staying in clean fellowship, not if we've apostatized from the faith.

Also, Righteousdude, let me know about your book if you don't mind. Thanks.

- Peace

basically, whenever we decide to go against God and His revealed will to us in any given situation..

backslidding
Trick is to repent and coness, to keep from backslidding into a state of ongoing "carnal Chrsitianity!"

 

[preacher4truth]

basically, whenever we decide to go against God and His revealed will to us in any given situation..

backslidding
Trick is to repent and coness, to keep from backslidding into a state of ongoing "carnal Chrsitianity!"

Wasn't the church at Corinth filled with carnal believers?

 

[JesusFan]

Wasn't the church at Corinth filled with carnal believers?

Yep...

Church full of "backslidders"

Thank God Paul did not warn them against "backsilliding right out the door, lost again!"

 

[freeatlast]

Wasn't the church at Corinth filled with carnal believers?

No not in the context in which you are trying to use the word carnal. When Paul used the word he was not speaking about living in sin apart from God. He was speaking about who they lifted up above another and acting like children who argue over trivial matters. The word carnal is NEVER applied to anyone who is in moral sin. In fact Paul actually questions their salvation in 2Cor. So the answer to your question is NO!

 

[preacher4truth]

My friend the prodigal was lost. That is not a guess that is what scripture says.
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Secondly claiming that any born again believer can live daily in the practice of sin makes 1John incorrect.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
We can know the real and the false. The problem is that because of faulty preaching and teaching many have made professions and never gotten saved so the lost do not know they are lost.

I disagree with you here. All of us fall into sin at times, doing so doesn't mean "practicing" sin, and I don't believe the word "lost" here means what you make it out to be, he was still a son, and lost in the sense that he got away from his Father. Psalms are filled with this concerning David also, getting into sin, not just the 51st, but others, yet, he still belonged to God.

Living a lifestyle of sin, that is different. Being a child of God, falling into sin, coming to ones senses, returning? All that is a picture of a true child of God.

I praise God for righteousdudes testimony, and can't discount it as anything other than he got away from God, and became prodigal, then returned.


- Peace

 

[preacher4truth]

No not in the context in which you are trying to use the word carnal. When Paul used the word he was not speaking about living in sin apart from God. He was speaking about who they lifted up above another and acting like children who argue over trivial matters. The word carnal is NEVER applied to anyone who is in moral sin. In fact Paul actually questions their salvation in 2Cor. So the answer to your question is NO!

Which was in itself sin, and carnality, as we agree.

This sin doesn't make one live apart from God, only "moral" ones do? I totally disagree, all sin does, whether "moral" or otherwise.

1 Peter 2:11 ties in carnality with lusts, which are moral sins inclusively. *Fleshly (see below)? It's the same word as carnal (Greek "sarkikos') so, in fact, CARNAL is used along with moral sins.

Proof? The word "lusts" here is the same condemning moral sin found in Romans 1:24. regarding sexual sin.

Here is 1Pe 2:11: Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from *fleshly (carnal) lusts (conupiscence) which wage war against the soul.

And, Rom 1:24: Therefore God gave them over in the lusts (concupiscence) of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

I think you're incorrect here, though I appreciate your zeal for righteousness.

- Peace

 

[freeatlast]

I disagree with you here. All of us fall into sin at times, doing so doesn't mean "practicing" sin, and I don't believe the word "lost" here means what you make it out to be, he was still a son, and lost in the sense that he got away from his Father. Psalms are filled with this concerning David also, getting into sin, not just the 51st, but others, yet, he still belonged to God.

Living a lifestyle of sin, that is different. Being a child of God, falling into sin, coming to ones senses, returning? All that is a picture of a true child of God.

I praise God for righteousdudes testimony, and can't discount it as anything other than he got away from God, and became prodigal, then returned.


- Peace

I can only tell you what scripture says and teaches and I believe it and try not to explain it away. I believe that the way is just as narrow and just as straight as scripture teaches it is. I truly believe Matt 7:21-23.


These are the many who professed a relationship but practiced sin. To practice sin is to do what comes naturally. It does not take sinning every moment or even every day. It is the natural act of any individual when certain circumstances arise. For the believer the natural act is to live holy with an occasional sin. When a believer sins they not only shock those around them, but they shock themselves. The reason is it is not their practice to sin, contrary to many false teachings in the church today and I am convinced because of this that a majority of the people who attend on any given Sunday in any given church are really lost even though they profess to be saved. In other words the lives do not agree with the profession.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

It just depends on who we believe. The Word of God or some false testimony of how someone fell away from the Lord and now is rededicating their life when they really need to get saved.

 

[JesusFan]

I disagree with you here. All of us fall into sin at times, doing so doesn't mean "practicing" sin, and I don't believe the word "lost" here means what you make it out to be, he was still a son, and lost in the sense that he got away from his Father. Psalms are filled with this concerning David also, getting into sin, not just the 51st, but others, yet, he still belonged to God.

Living a lifestyle of sin, that is different. Being a child of God, falling into sin, coming to ones senses, returning? All that is a picture of a true child of God.

I praise God for righteousdudes testimony, and can't discount it as anything other than he got away from God, and became prodigal, then returned.


- Peace

What "Muddies" the waters here is that some on BB have posted and hold to once a Christian NO MORE old nature"flesh" remains just new nature in Christ, so little room for a :carnal Christian" even being an option, either living for God or not!

 

[freeatlast]

Which was in itself sin, and carnality, as we agree.

This sin doesn't make one live apart from God, only "moral" ones do? I totally disagree, all sin does, whether "moral" or otherwise.

1 Peter 2:11 ties in carnality with lusts, which are moral sins inclusively. Fleshly? It's the same word as carnal (Greek "sarkikos') so, in fact, CARNAL is used along with moral sins.

I think you're incorrect here, though I appreciate your zeal for righteousness.

- Peace

Thank you that is very kind, but it is not my intention to be appreciated. I only desire truth and I stand on what I have written as it agrees with scripture without having to do a commentary on it ***(Implication removed)***

The only problem here is this. If I am correct there are many who need to be warned and taught the truth of the bible to get saved, as by my calculation your view it is filling hell with people of a false hope. If I am incorrect then no real lose is incurred as they go to heaven anyway in the mist of their sin. I have to stick with what is written in scripture and not try and explain it away as I believe many will say Lord, Lord because of this false teaching of backsliding

 

[preacher4truth]

Thank you that is very kind, but it is not my intention to be appreciated. I only desire truth and I stand on what I have written as it agrees with scripture without having to do a commentary on it

The only problem here is this. If I am correct there are many who need to be warned and taught the truth of the bible to get saved, since by your view it is filling hell with people of a false hope. If I am incorrect then no real lose is incurred as they go to heaven anyway in the mist of their sin. I have to stick with what is written in scripture and not try and explain it away as I believe many will say Lord, Lord because of this false teaching of backsliding

Here is what I said:

Which was in itself sin, and carnality, as we agree.

This sin doesn't make one live apart from God, only "moral" ones do? I totally disagree, all sin does, whether "moral" or otherwise.

1 Peter 2:11 ties in carnality with lusts, which are moral sins inclusively. *Fleshly (see below)? It's the same word as carnal (Greek "sarkikos') so, in fact, CARNAL is used along with moral sins.

Proof? The word "lusts" here is the same condemning moral sin found in Romans 1:24. regarding sexual sin.

Here is 1Pe 2:11: Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from *fleshly (carnal) lusts (conupiscence) which wage war against the soul.

And, Rom 1:24: Therefore God gave them over in the lusts (concupiscence) of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

I think you're incorrect here, though I appreciate your zeal for righteousness.

- Peace

Let' see how it worked for you, when I give proof and commentary, I'm a Jehovahs Witness cult? Correct? But when you give commentary (which you have), it's all truth? OK.

I gave you proof and good Scriptural analysis, not opinion. Look above.

And my preaching is filling hell with people? Really?

Not at all. Ever.

I gave you proof that you are completely wrong that carnality is not ever linked to moral sins. It is. You're wrong.

But I'll be gracious and not tell you that your teaching is cultic and sending people to hell, as you've done to me.

That you say that to me? For one, it's not allowed on the BB, and secondly, it's not true what you say.

 

[JesusFan]

Thank you that is very kind, but it is not my intention to be appreciated. I only desire truth and I stand on what I have written as it agrees with scripture without having to do a commentary on it

The only problem here is this. If I am correct there are many who need to be warned and taught the truth of the bible to get saved, as by my calculation your view it is filling hell with people of a false hope. If I am incorrect then no real lose is incurred as they go to heaven anyway in the mist of their sin. I have to stick with what is written in scripture and not try and explain it away as I believe many will say Lord, Lord because of this false teaching of backsliding

How is it "false teaching?"

 

[righteousdude2]

Point, Counterpoint!

My friend the prodigal was lost. That is not a guess that is what scripture says.
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Secondly claiming that any born again believer can live daily in the practice of sin makes 1John incorrect.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
We can know the real and the false. The problem is that because of faulty preaching and teaching many have made professions and never gotten saved so the lost do not know they are lost.

Great point FAL, and you won't get an argument from me. However, I look at it this way. Sin does separate us from God, and when the Prodigal walked away, he was dead as you say, to his father, just like we are dead to the Father while following sin.

I find it hard to believe that the deeper intrenched we become in sin, the more inclined the Father is to turn from us until we return to Him.

While I rebelled and out of anger, trued to push God away, I never once felt that He wasn't future than a prayer of repentance away. My life was complicated during those years, but I know that He never stopped loving me, even though many of the actions of my life indicated just the opposite when it came to my love for Him.

When everything fell apart (marriage, family, ministry) my anger with God caused me to pack up my belongings and leave. However, "The Hound of Heaven" by Dr. Mickey Anders of the First Christian Church Pikeville, Kentucky September 23, 2001 (based on Romans 1:19-21) has always reminded me of the prodigal daze I was under, and how HE never once gave up on me.

Don't get me wrong, Even though I was living life my way, I couldn't get so far from God that the continued need to repent from the conviction I faced (sometimes, moment after moment). The only problem was, I noticed that my prayers of repentance grew weaker each time I uttered them heavenward! And after years of sinning and repenting, the prayers became like a noisey din, going nowhere because I only returned to the vomit.

It took a few days of feeling, as though I was cut off from God and that my prayers were empty catechism uttering that led me deep into a state of depression (and me eating out of the farmers pig trough) that found me nearly taking my life, except for the grace of God, the attempt failed, and with days, I was being greeted by my Heavenly Father, with the brass ring and a family feast waiting.

I believe so much of what you call one thing is merely semantics. You'd have to have lived in and walked in my shoes to understand what I went through, and what I knew while I plowed my way deep into a pit of sin.

He never left me, that I know, but, there was a three-day period (between my attempted suicide and my complete return to Him) where I was empty and void of Him. I came out of those three long days, closer to Him than I ever though possible. BTW, There is no other way to explain the miracle of His intervention in my suicide. It was God, who intervened, no doubt about it on my behalf.

I hope we can agree that our difference of opinion is merely semantic, and not theological.

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[freeatlast]

Great point FAL, and you won't get an argument from me. However, I look at it this way. Sin does separate us from God, and when the Prodigal walked away, he was dead as you say, to his father, just like we are dead to the Father while following sin.

I find it hard to believe that the deeper intrenched we become in sin, the more inclined the Father is to turn from us until we return to Him.

While I rebelled and out of anger, trued to push God away, I never once felt that He wasn't future than a prayer of repentance away. My life was complicated during those years, but I know that He never stopped loving me, even though many of the actions of my life indicated just the opposite when it came to my love for Him.

When everything fell apart (marriage, family, ministry) my anger with God caused me to pack up my belongings and leave. However, "The Hound of Heaven" by Dr. Mickey Anders of the First Christian Church Pikeville, Kentucky September 23, 2001 (based on Romans 1:19-21) has always reminded me of the prodigal daze I was under, and how HE never once gave up on me.

Don't get me wrong, Even though I was living life my way, I couldn't get so far from God that the continued need to repent from the conviction I faced (sometimes, moment after moment). The only problem was, I noticed that my prayers of repentance grew weaker each time I uttered them heavenward! And after years of sinning and repenting, the prayers became like a noisey din, going nowhere because I only returned to the vomit.

It took a few days of feeling, as though I was cut off from God and that my prayers were empty catechism uttering that led me deep into a state of depression (and me eating out of the farmers pig trough) that found me nearly taking my life, except for the grace of God, the attempt failed, and with days, I was being greeted by my Heavenly Father, with the brass ring and a family feast waiting.

I believe so much of what you call one thing is merely semantics. You'd have to have lived in and walked in my shoes to understand what I went through, and what I knew while I plowed my way deep into a pit of sin.

He never left me, that I know, but, there was a three-day period (between my attempted suicide and my complete return to Him) where I was empty and void of Him. I came out of those three long days, closer to Him than I ever though possible. BTW, There is no other way to explain the miracle of His intervention in my suicide. It was God, who intervened, no doubt about it on my behalf.

I hope we can agree that our difference of opinion is merely semantic, and not theological.

Pastor Paul :type:

Hello Paul,
as you know we have had this discussion before. Your testimony is not uncommon, but I believe it is not in accord with scripture. You claim one thing and the word claims another. Who should I believe? I am not suggesting you are a liar. Just deeply confused as to what happens at salvation. Salvation is not merely a positional change, but also a character change. As we learn what is expected of us we grow in the grace we have been given which is our sanctification. That is what 1 John is trying to show.

Once we are saved we remain positionally saved, (eternal security) but we also remain by the same Spirit living our lives for the Lord. It is impossible to separate the two. This is not to suggest sinless perfection as someone is going to try and claim. Since my salvation and because of my background sin has been a serious battle. At times I have sinned greatly, but with the sin came immediate great regret and contrition which made me seek even harder to live as we have been called. It is the same for all as I am not unique. No child of God can turn from the Lord as they are kept in the Lord.
Many times it is very easy for those who have been indoctrinated with the teachings of scripture and all the emotions that can come with that think they are saved, but the proof is if they remain. not if the come and leave and return. I thank God that He is the God of a second chance so to speak as I have made false professions in the past also, but when the time came I knew I had to surrender all to be saved and accept Him as Lord of my life. Only then does He place His spirit into us so that this heart never changes or returns to sin.



One more thing. I realize I am not the best at putting into words what I try to say while seeking not to compromise the truth and yet not be harsh, but I do try. With that let me say this. It is absolutely impossible to know within ourselves we are saved when we have sin in our lives. There has only been one test in scripture for knowing if we are saved and that is if we keep the commandments. In fact it clearly says if we claim to know God and do not keep them we are the liar. It is so easy to be deceived and sadly we many times deceive ourselves. No Christian backslides from a biblical perspective. If we are not seeking God with a daily walk we are not His. There is simply no exceptions. I have to admit that the position i hold is not popular and that makes it difficult to hold, but as much as i would like to hold to the doctrine of backsliding if for no other reason then convenience it is not biblical. Again no one ever gets saved and turns from the Lord, No one because we do not keep ourselves, but are kept by the Spirit.

 

[JesusFan]

Hello Paul,
as you know we have had this discussion before. Your testimony is not uncommon, but I believe it is not in accord with scripture. You claim one thing and the word claims another. Who should I believe? I am not suggesting you are a liar. Just deeply confused as to what happens at salvation. Salvation is not merely a positional change, but also a character change. As we learn what is expected of us we grow in the grace we have been given which is our sanctification. That is what 1 John is trying to show.

Once we are saved we remain positionally saved, (eternal security) but we also remain by the same Spirit living our lives for the Lord. It is impossible to separate the two. This is not to suggest sinless perfection as someone is going to try and claim. Since my salvation and because of my background sin has been a serious battle. At times I have sinned greatly, but with the sin came immediate great regret and contrition which made me seek even harder to live as we have been called. It is the same for all as I am not unique. No child of God can turn from the Lord as they are kept in the Lord.
Many times it is very easy for those who have been indoctrinated with the teachings of scripture and all the emotions that can come with that think they are saved, but the proof is if they remain. not if the come and leave and return. I thank God that He is the God of a second chance so to speak as I have made false professions in the past also, but when the time came I knew I had to surrender all to be saved and accept Him as Lord of my life. Only then does He place His spirit into us so that this heart never changes or returns to sin.



One more thing. I realize I am not the best at putting into words what I try to say while seeking not to compromise the truth and yet not be harsh, but I do try. With that let me say this. It is absolutely impossible to know within ourselves we are saved when we have sin in our lives. There has only been one test in scripture for knowing if we are saved and that is if we keep the commandments. In fact it clearly says if we claim to know God and do not keep them we are the liar. It is so easy to be deceived and sadly we many times deceive ourselves. No Christian backslides from a biblical perspective. If we are not seeking God with a daily walk we are not His. There is simply no exceptions. I have to admit that the position i hold is not popular and that makes it difficult to hold, but as much as i would like to hold to the doctrine of backsliding if for no other reason then convenience it is not biblical. Again no one ever gets saved and turns from the Lord, No one because we do not keep ourselves, but are kept by the Spirit.

Think this one of the points of the prodigal Son...

That he was and always was a child of God(Father) and een while out in the World and in with Pigs, he reamined a Child, who finally repented and came back to God

God always was there to welcome Him back!

just shows from Jesus Himself that love of God and his Grace towards His own never fails/stops, and that His own will caome back to Him, eventually!

 

[preacher4truth]

Think this one of the points of the prodigal Son...

That he was and always was a child of God(Father) and een while out in the World and in with Pigs, he reamined a Child, who finally repented and came back to God

God always was there to welcome Him back!

just shows from Jesus Himself that love of God and his Grace towards His own never fails/stops, and that His own will caome back to Him, eventually!

Amen. :thumbsup:

 

[JesusFan]

Amen. :thumbsup:

We always need to keep in mind, that grace is free, NOT cheap, took death of Son of God to provide it enough to cover our sins...

BUT

We need to also know that its God doing His work in and through us, conforming into image of Jesus

So relax, and follow example of paul...

get knocked off the horse, pick yourself up, and keep running the race!