How long should sermons be

[Rippon]

If a preacher has something worth saying and says it well the whole time, I find that even people with short attention spans can follow him for very long periods of time.

Short attention spans. Do you think the Lord sympathizes with that excuse? Isn't that a modern excuse? I don't think it was used as a phrase before the 20th century.

As I've said before, I don't advocate longer sermons than what most here are accustomed to just because they are longer. I want a 45 minute sermon, for instance, to be filled with meaningful biblical content. Al Martin isn't capable of delivering a 25 minute ditty.

EW&F has claimed he used to be part of that congregation if I recall correctly. I don't think he ever complained about long sermons in the past on the BB. When and if he becomes part of a legitimate assembly of believers he needs to let go of his inconvenience arguments. It doesn't wash.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So you're not a New Testament church kind of guy. I,I,I,I and I huh?

But preaching and not Q&A sessions are what the Lord has prescribed for us.

You and your timetable. Your restlessness is rebelliousness. I think you would object to sitting on a mountainside listening to Jesus preaching on the Beatitudes --it's just not how you roll.

What? Do you have ants in your pants at your age?

Do you think that because you are not a patient person that excuses your disobedience?

You would not have been a happy camper at Westminster chapel. You probably would have wanted to confront DMLJ and told him to trim his messages because you think a sermon should be a homily instead.

Shame on you EW&F.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU & THANK YOU.....I will live very comfortably with that shame:thumbs:. And I will return to a Francis commentary....PREACH THE GOSPEL ALWAYS AND IF NECESSARY USE WORDS. Praise Him for this major revaluation. :godisgood:

 

[Rippon]

More research yields the following results:

Maurice Roberts
8 sermons in the 30s
12 sermons in the 40s
3 sermons in the 50s
________________________
D.A. Carson (18 sermons)
3 sermons 40+ minutes
6 sermons 50+ minutes
4 sermons 60+ minutes
3 sermons 70+ minutes
1 sermon 90+ minutes
__________________________
John Weaver
21 sermons more than 50 minutes
3 sermons more than 60 minutes
1 sermon more than 70 minutes
__________________________
Rolfe Barnard
2 sermons over 20-some minutes
4 sermons over 30 minutes
8 sermons over 40 minutes
9 sermons over 50 minutes
2 sermons more than 60 minutes
__________________________
Leonard Ravenhill
1 sermon 30ish
4 sermons 40ish
9 sermons 50ish
6 sermons 60ish
3 sermons 70ish
2 sermons 80ish
__________________________
B.B. Caldwell
3 sermons 30+
18 sermons 40+
1 sermon 50+
2 sermons 60+
1 sermon 70+
___________________________
E.W. Johnson
1 sermon over 30 min.
10 sermons over 40 min.
14 sermons over 50 min.
___________________________
Ferrell Griswold
2 sermons more than 30 min.
13 sermons over 40 min.
8 sermons over 50 min.
2 sermons over 60 minutes
________________________________
Conclusion? Three of these eight preachers average in the range of 40-some minutes. Five of these preachers average more than 50 minutes per message.

(By the way, the last four men were all friends with Rolfe Barnard.)

Is it just a coincidence that of the 22 men I have listed in this thread averaged in the 40-some to 50+ range in their preaching? As I have said --solid preaching requires time --no shortcuts --no soundbites. The ancients didn't whip out their sundials and tap them thinking they had better things to do than attend the preaching of God's Word!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Is it just a coincidence that of the 22 men I have listed in this thread averaged in the 40-some to 50+ range in their preaching?

No, its a testament to the fact that even great speakers get carried away with their own self-importance. You can post all the sermons those guys preached longer than 40 minutes if you want, the question is, even though they are great speakers, did they really have anything to say that was worth more than 40 minutes? My opinion -- and like bellybuttons, everybody's got one -- most don't.

Southern Baptist seminaries actually teach their students what constitutes great sermons. They tell them pastors who speak to great length are guilty of several mistakes that may never be pointed out to them, because after all, who's going to tell the pastor to wrap it up and sit down?

Pastors go into great detail in the introduction. Introductions that take forever make peoples minds wander to lunch or Fantasy Football. I don’t care if you have a great story. Get to the point. What are you talking about? Why should I care? How does this impact me? Whether pastors like it or not, that is what is going through the minds of the majority of the congregation, and castigating them for not being "interested enough to want to listen" won't get them to listen.

• Pastors try to include too many points in the sermon. Pastors should focus on a central idea, one point, and seek for two, perhaps three subpoints. Beyond that, it is nothing more than overreaching and overspeaking.
• Pastors are guilty of TMI -- Too Much Information. They introduce a central thought, and immediately become historians, laying the groundwork for the passage's background, history, social mores, etc. Not necessary. People who want to know that kind of detail will research it for themselves. Frankly, most people don't.
• Pastors "circle the runway." Sometimes I think they just don't know how to end the sermon, but the unfortunate truth is, they don't want to end it. They enjoy hearing themselves talk. They like preaching the gospel, which is a good thing, but there comes a time when they cease preaching and proceed to beat a dead horse. That is beyond the time to wrap it up and sit down.
• Pastors think more is better. It isn't. You can chastise people for not wanting to sit through more than a 30-minute sermon all you want, most people won't do it, and that doesn't make them less faithful, less attentive, or certainly less hungry for the word. A sermon that begins to go over 30 minutes causes people's attention to begin to drift. I love listening to great preaching, but "length" doesn't guarantee "great"! I have to consciously refocus myself on the message, and if I have that problem, I know a large number of the congregation do, too.

I've got some difficult questions for my pastor friends on here, and I offer them in love and fellowship. The rest who have argued for long sermons, what are you trying to prove, that you are hungrier for the word, more faithful and holy than the rest? Balderdash. Deep down, I'm pretty sure you like shorter sermons, too, if they feed your need. So, here we go, from my own professional perspective as a counselor:

Pastors, who are you trying to reach? You? Or them? If you want to reach them, consider the attention span of the average American these days, Christian or not.

Did you know, according to the latest research, from 1998 to 2008, the average American attention span dropped from 12 minutes to five minutes. So that 30 minute sermon is about six times longer than your congregation pays attention to anything else.

If you want to go longer, are you really doing your job, or just being self-centered?

 

[Jerome]

Tom Ascol over at the 'Founders' website answers the inquiry "Who or what determines what is the appropriate length of a person's sermon?":

Sometimes we tend to measure spirituality or "depth" by the length of the sermon. That is wrong, in my opinion.

I would argue that we should not have an set length as a standard of excellence.

Ascol urges preachers to consider Iain Murray's counsel:

Far better to be short than to be dull! A number of eminent preachers could be quoted who did not think 20 minutes ‘short’ or unacceptable.

http://blog.founders.org/2009/12/iain-murray-on-what-is-lacking-in.html

 

[Rippon]

Tom Ascol over at the 'Founders' website answers the inquiry "Who or what determines what is the appropriate length of a person's sermon?":

Well, looking at his first page of sermons Tom has this breakdown:

1 message in the 30th range
8 messages in 40th
14 messages in the 50th
2 messages in the 60 range

So Tom Ascol is comfortable preaching around 50-some minutes on average.

His buddy,Dr. Tom Nettles :

4 sermons in the 30s
7 in the 40s
9 in the 50s
3 in the 60s
2 in the 70s

On average Tom preaches 50-some minutes.

 

[Rippon]

No, its a testament to the fact that even great speakers get carried away with their own self-importance.

That's your very subjective call. You ought to be hesitant before making such claims.

even though they are great speakers, did they really have anything to say that was worth more than 40 minutes? My opinion -- most don't.

Since you really have not sat under preaching longer than 30 to your knowledge --you have no basis for saying what you have.

Pastors go into great detail in the introduction.
They enjoy hearing themselves talk.
Pastors think more is better. It isn't.
A sermon that begins to go over 30 minutes causes people's attention to begin to drift.

You have made some rather rash determinations. What you need to do is actually listen to some sermons on sermonaudio.com and find out for yourself. Then come back to eat your hat for all of us to see. I listed some pretty good preachers --check them out.

Pastors, who are you trying to reach? You? Or them? If you want to reach them, consider the attention span of the average American these days, Christian or not.

Did you know, according to the latest research, from 1998 to 2008, the average American attention span dropped from 12 minutes to five minutes.

According to your tripe in other words.:laugh:

As I have said elsewhere, I don't think the term "attention span" was bandied about until the middle of the 20th century. It's just a sinful excuse for lazy, self-centered, spoiled, largely American Christians who haven't a clue.

If you want to go longer, are you really doing your job, or just being self-centered?

Now that is a completely unwarranted charge. Shame on you.

 

[nodak]

I'm not lazy, not self centered, and most certainly well educated, especially in matters of theology and doctrine.

I'm also evangelistic.

If I believe a sermon or service would cause an unbeliever to walk away from the church and from our Lord, I won't take them to it.

And if I believe any given pastor is full of himself and talks far beyond what the congregation wants to hear, I simply walk away.

Many years ago a thriving church, growing leaps and bounds, got one of those long winded pastors. Individuals approached him about it. He got longer. The deacons called him to task. He got longer. The elder board directed him to speak shorter. He got longer, and lengthened the song service.

He's gone now. Left when he grew the church to almost no attenders.

The simple truth is this: a sermon's length WILL be determined by the listeners, unless they are cultlike in figuring the head shaman controls their relationship to God. If a given pastor is long and boring, they will go elsewhere.

Preach as long as you want. If I figure you preach longer than you have something to say, I simply won't be there to hear it, and my relationship with Jesus Christ won't suffer a bit.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

.

Since you really have not sat under preaching longer than 30 to your knowledge --you have no basis for saying what you have.

Actually, I have sat under preaching longer than that. None of it was worth it. Not everyone has so much to say that the congregation willingly will sit through a 40-, 50-, or 60-minute sermon. In fact, such men are few and far between, and most pastors won't even consider talking that long any more.

Many churches these days have multiple services. It is impossible for a pastor to speak that long and do three services in one morning. Pastors have learned to speak on point, stay on point, and most importantly, make a point. Many today who speak for more than 30 minutes miss the point.

You want to sit through an hour-long sermon? Fine. Go for it. But don't judge my refusal, or anyone else's to do so. Long sermons are mostly the product of arrogance or bad public speaking, not worthwhile information. As was said just before this:

The simple truth is this: a sermon's length WILL be determined by the listeners, unless they are cultlike in figuring the head shaman controls their relationship to God. If a given pastor is long and boring, they will go elsewhere.

If you want to view an hour-long sermon as appropriate, so be it. I won't disparage you. Kindly don't disparage the rest of us for having the opposite view

 

[Rippon]

.Actually, I have sat under preaching longer than that. None of it was worth it.

In a prior post you said you've been a Baptist for 21 years,4 churches,and that you've "never seen one go over 30 minutes with a sermon." You have contradicted yourself.

Long sermons are mostly the product of arrogance or bad public speaking, not worthwhile information. As was said just before this:If you want to view an hour-long sermon as appropriate, so be it. I won't disparage you. Kindly don't disparage the rest of us for having the opposite view

You are quite hypocritical. After having said that no sermon over 30 minutes is worth it --no worthwhile information. You've said :
"Long sermons are mostly a product of arrogance or bad public speaking."
"Great speakers get carried away with their own self-importance."
They are "self-centered."

Now you want to pretend that you won't disparage the rest of us who appreciate longer sermons. TND, you speak with a forked-tongue.

 

[Iconoclast]

In a prior post you said you've been a Baptist for 21 years,4 churches,and that you've "never seen one go over 30 minutes with a sermon." You have contradicted yourself.

You are quite hypocritical. After having said that no sermon over 30 minutes is worth it --no worthwhile information. You've said :
"Long sermons are mostly a product of arrogance or bad public speaking."
"Great speakers get carried away with their own self-importance."
They are "self-centered."

Now you want to pretend that you won't disparage the rest of us who appreciate longer sermons. TND, you speak with a forked-tongue.

opps....busted....:laugh::wavey::laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

thisnumbersdisconnected

No, its a testament to the fact that even great speakers get carried away with their own self-importance

.

So...Dconn they preach long because they are self centered and egotistical?

Why would you have such a dim view? Not every word they say is a great gem. Some parts of a message speak to part of the people and some others are interested in other sections of the message. What if you would have them cut off the parts that help the one group.?

Southern Baptist seminaries actually teach their students what constitutes great sermons. They tell them pastors who speak to great length are guilty of several mistakes that may never be pointed out to them, because after all, who's going to tell the pastor to wrap it up and sit down?

A 40 minute sermon is not "great length". It is normal length. If you are in a church where members are ready to tell the pastor to {wrap it up} you are in the wrong church.

Pastors go into great detail in the introduction. Introductions that take forever make peoples minds wander to lunch or Fantasy Football.

If peoples minds are carnal and wandering to the things of the flesh it suggests lack of prayer time and preparation the night before and the morning of worship. They are coming to a service not prepared to hear Divine truth.
This shameful condition of coming with a mind full of vain thoughts;

14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

rather than seeing these carnal vain thoughts as the problem, you and Nodak suggest it is the pastor and the sermon length. I suggest it is people who have no appetite for the things of God.

17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

I don’t care if you have a great story. Get to the point

.

Preaching......is not story telling. It is an exposition of God's revealed word.

A story to illustrate a point or two in the sermon is fine as long as the word of God gets unfolded and preached. Your pastor and Nodaks I would suggest are telling more little stories than preaching.

What are you talking about? Why should I care? How does this impact me
? Whether pastors like it or not, that is what is going through the minds of the majority of the congregation,

Good sermons that Rippon is speaking of answer all those questions. That is why several are saying you have not heard good preaching or you would not post what you are posting

[*]Pastors try to include too many points in the sermon. Pastors should focus on a central idea, one point, and seek for two, perhaps three subpoints. Beyond that, it is nothing more than overreaching and overspeaking.

very few pastors go more than three points, which is what spurgeon did

Pastors are guilty of TMI -- Too Much Information. They introduce a central thought, and immediately become historians, laying the groundwork for the passage's background, history, social mores, etc. Not necessary.

While this can be overdone....it is necessary to open the passage properly.

People who want to know that kind of detail will research it for themselves. Frankly, most people don't.[/

Frankly...many who do not care are not going to heaven, they do not care, they do not research anything, and they live ungodly lives. Their manner of life is filled with the things of this world, cursing, drinking, and any other flesh appealing thing...so they have no time for a 40 minute sermon.

Pastors "circle the runway." Sometimes I think they just don't know how to end the sermon, but the unfortunate truth is, they don't want to end it. They enjoy hearing themselves talk

.

This is not true in any church I have been in.. If that is going on, it is not a God called man .

They like preaching the gospel, which is a good thing, but there comes a time when they cease preaching and proceed to beat a dead horse. That is beyond the time to wrap it up and sit down.[/

Again...not the good ones.

Pastors think more is better. It isn't. You can chastise people for not wanting to sit through more than a 30-minute sermon all you want, most people won't do it, and that doesn't make them less faithful, less attentive, or certainly less hungry for the word. A sermon that begins to go over 30 minutes causes people's attention to begin to drift. I love listening to great preaching, but "length" doesn't guarantee "great"! I have to consciously refocus myself on the message, and if I have that problem, I know a large number of the congregation do, too

.[/FONT][/SIZE]

What you are describing is the flesh warring against the Spirit.
Surely you have noticed when you are at pray or prayer meeting you must work to focus and not allow these drifting thoughts to overtake godly ones.It is the same with hearing a sermon....it is work, not entertainment.

I've got some difficult questions for my pastor friends on here, and I offer them in love and fellowship. The rest who have argued for long sermons, what are you trying to prove, that you are hungrier for the word, more faithful and holy than the rest? Balderdash.

No one has said long sermons guarantee good result. We have said good sermons by God called men run 35-45 minutes. I have never brought a stop watch to church, and yet more often than not I felt some more could have been in there. So in the fellowship time following the sermon we discuss some of the key points and long to explore the key points, not rush out of the assembly hall and avoid the fellowship of the saints.

Deep down, I'm pretty sure you like shorter sermons, too, if they feed your need. So, here we go, from my own professional perspective as a counselor:

Nope...not at all. It is not an issue.

Pastors, who are you trying to reach? You? Or them? If you want to reach them, consider the attention span of the average American these days, Christian or not.

Did you know, according to the latest research, from 1998 to 2008, the average American attention span dropped from 12 minutes to five minutes. So that 30 minute sermon is about six times longer than your congregation pays attention to anything else.

This is pragmatic garbage. No thanks.:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

nodak

If I believe a sermon or service would cause an unbeliever to walk away from the church and from our Lord, I won't take them to it.

This betrays a lack of the biblical knowledge and doctrine you claim to have.If God is drawing the sinner to salvation they will come and not be turned away by a godly sermon.

And if I believe any given pastor is full of himself and talks far beyond what the congregation wants to hear, I simply walk away.

This is an ungodly attitude. Why would you sit in a place where the pastor was[full of himself} and who says the congregation controls the pastor.This sounds like a goat rebellion , not sheep waiting to be lead by the word of God.

Many years ago a thriving church, growing leaps and bounds, got one of those long winded pastors. Individuals approached him about it. He got longer. The deacons called him to task. He got longer. The elder board directed him to speak shorter. He got longer, and lengthened the song service.

He's gone now. Left when he grew the church to almost no attenders.

This anecdotal story is subjective it is your view and no one knows the accuracy of it to even comment on it.

The simple truth is this: a sermon's length WILL be determined by the listeners, unless they are cultlike in figuring the head shaman controls their relationship to God

.

Again this is an ungodly perspective, To speak of a God called pastor as the head shaman betrays your thoughts are skewed.....

If a given pastor is long and boring, they will go elsewhere

.
If a pastor is boring at all ,he is not God's man.

Preach as long as you want. If I figure you preach longer than you have something to say, I simply won't be there to hear it, and my relationship with Jesus Christ won't suffer a bit.

You are quite free to make such statements. I am quite free to call them ungodly perspectives that need to be repented of. This is rebellion as posted.

Who are you or the "congregation to rule over the eldership? If they are not called of God , you should not sit there. If they are you have no right to rule over them;

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

 

[Rippon]

Someone please find at least seven preachers on sermonaudio.com who average 20 to 25 minutes. If there are such creatures I dare say they do not unpack the Word of God much at all.

That was my challenge a while back. So far no one has produced anything.

 

[InTheLight]

So much of this depends on the speaker. For example, we had a guest speaker two weeks ago that preached for 35 minutes and had me frequently glancing at my watch. Last week it was 40 minutes with assistant pastor and a lot of checking on time. Today our pastor went 50 minutes, it flew by and I was sorry it ended.

I will say this--30 minutes is the bare minimum; 40-45 is about right.

 

[Iconoclast]

So much of this depends on the speaker. For example, we had a guest speaker two weeks ago that preached for 35 minutes and had me frequently glancing at my watch. Last week it was 40 minutes with assistant pastor and a lot of checking on time. Today our pastor went 50 minutes, it flew by and I was sorry it ended.

I will say this--30 minutes is the bare minimum; 40-45 is about right.

:thumbs::applause::wavey:...yes exactly

a friend posted this on facebook;

http://theaquilareport.com/why-so-many-churches-hear-so-little-of-the-bible/#.U3gG2Os6gj8.facebook

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So much of this depends on the speaker. For example, we had a guest speaker two weeks ago that preached for 35 minutes and had me frequently glancing at my watch. Last week it was 40 minutes with assistant pastor and a lot of checking on time. Today our pastor went 50 minutes, it flew by and I was sorry it ended.

I will say this--30 minutes is the bare minimum; 40-45 is about right.

He needed 50 minutes to say what exactly?

 

[Rippon]

Reset your watches

Obviously some folks have a different meaning for the word l-o-n-g. I would say that 42.50 minutes would be a bare minimum for the time taken to preach a good sermon. That's not long at all from my point of reference.

For many of the preachers I listed they are at full throttle at that point. Maybe we can consider 45 minutes as the standard length. Anything over an hour may be considered long, but many times still quite good. You might have noticed where several of the preachers I featured went up to 80-some minutes on occasion. That wasn't their normal length --but they did go to that point.

Again,as I have said several times: some shorter sermons of 25 to 30 minutes or so may be fine and dandy. But on a regular basis the flock needs more meat.

Those of you who you who just cannot conceive of listening to a sermon of 45 plus minutes need to open your minds,plant yourself down, and hear some good preaching from sermonaudio.com

For review:

Short :under 30 minutes
Standard :45 minutes
Long : over one hour

All three lengths by various preachers may be good. A good spiritual diet for a congregant might very well be a preacher in the standard parameter normally.

Some who normally preach near the hour mark have a lot of fat content. Or to mix metaphors --they blow a lot of hot air. Some who preach 25-30 minutes may pack a surprising amount of meat in a short space. Or they might be skimping the people. I think one of the major roles for a pastor is that Sunday sermon. He should be preparing all week for it. If what comes out is a little ditty then I think the people have been robbed. They deserve a better undershepherd.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Obviously some folks have a different meaning for the word l-o-n-g. I would say that 42.50 minutes would be a bare minimum for the time taken to preach a good sermon. That's not long at all from my point of reference.

For many of the preachers I listed they are at full throttle at that point. Maybe we can consider 45 minutes as the standard length. Anything over an hour may be considered long, but many times still quite good. You might have noticed where several of the preachers I featured went up to 80-some minutes on occasion. That wasn't their normal length --but they did go to that point.

Again,as I have said several times: some shorter sermons of 25 to 30 minutes or so may be fine and dandy. But on a regular basis the flock needs more meat.

Those of you who you who just cannot conceive of listening to a sermon of 45 plus minutes need to open your minds,plant yourself down, and hear some good preaching from sermonaudio.com

For review:

Short :under 30 minutes
Standard :45 minutes
Long : over one hour

All three lengths by various preachers may be good. A good spiritual diet for a congregant might very well be a preacher in the standard parameter normally.

Some who normally preach near the hour mark have a lot of fat content. Or to mix metaphors --they blow a lot of hot air. Some who preach 25-30 minutes may pack a surprising amount of meat in a short space. Or they might be skimping the people. I think one of the major roles for a pastor is that Sunday sermon. He should be preparing all week for it. If what comes out is a little ditty then I think the people have been robbed. They deserve a better undershepherd.

80 minutes ....really? 80 minutes. What in the world did they have to say to the congregation in 80 minutes that they couldn't say in 45????

 

[Rippon]

80 minutes ....really? 80 minutes. What in the world did they have to say to the congregation in 80 minutes that they couldn't say in 45????

This will requite some effort on your part --but you will have to exercise p-a-t-i-e-n-c-e. You have made a point of saying that you have little of that commodity.

Check out Leonard Ravenhill. On his first page of 25 he has 2 that are in the 80s. D.A. Carson has 1 that is over 90 minutes!