How much of a "sinner" are we really?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

“I made a covenant with mine eyes; Why then should I think upon a maid? Job 31:1

So you don’t see beauty in the female human form?

 

[1689Dave]

It doesn’t. Now does anyone care about those sentiments? No. For all intense and purposes, those sentiments have been ignored by this board. They are probably seen as the ramblings of a yankee Catholic liberal. They might be right.

In today’s trumpian world, those words are looked upon as petty sentimentality. In this “new world order” one must protect ones own interests, not consern ones self with others and their condition. So it’s really about refocusing, putting your own agenda in order, concentrating on your own plans and ignoring all else. Wasn’t it Sophocles who said that when a vast force or power enters into the affairs of men, open or secret, it brings with it a curse?

It still comes down to us treating others as our equal. And the system won't allow for it by design. But individually, Christians can move about freely blessing others using their own assets. Example, I worked for a Christian business that paid us more than we were worth, in some cases, far more than we were worth.

 

[1689Dave]

So you don’t see beauty in the female human form?

It's like Job said: “I made a covenant with mine eyes; Why then should I think upon a maid?” (Job 31:1)

 

[HankD]

“I made a covenant with mine eyes; Why then should I think upon a maid? Job 31:1

Why? Because sometimes I wander where I shouldn't go.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


.

 

[Judith]

I believe that we are sinners by birth and choice.

 

[HankD]

How much of a "sinner" are we really?

Did anyone quote this passage? I think it says it all.

Jeremiah 17
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

The human heart is not just deceitful but it is deceitful above all things.
The human heart is not just wicked but it is desperately wicked.
We cannot know it until God reveals it to us (see the passage above).

 

[rlvaughn]

I suppose this will bring out the real "Arminian" in those who are and I suppose this will bring out the real "Particular Redemptionist" in those who are?!

Wouldn't this be more of a "Neo-Trad/Cal" argument? I thought true Arminian theology embraced total depravity?

 

[rlvaughn]

The following hymn is one of my favorites that I led in church...
1 Jesus, Thou art the sinner's Friend;
As such I look to Thee;
Now, in the fulness of Thy love,
O Lord, remember me...

Sorry no music... Brother Glen

Well, then, let's add some :

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It still comes down to us treating others as our equal. And the system won't allow for it by design. But individually, Christians can move about freely blessing others using their own assets. Example, I worked for a Christian business that paid us more than we were worth, in some cases, far more than we were worth.

Your example is not real world

 

[Martin Marprelate]

He is speaking of how he views himself. He is quite plain in his other writings such as Rom 1:17, 3:22 etc. that he knows that Christ blood made him righteous. One can not positionally be both righteous and a sinner. When Paul speaks of being a sinner, he is speaking of his actions, not his position in Christ or the state of his soul.

Well just so. Paul knew himself to be both a sinner and counted righteous in Christ.

'When Satan tempts me to despair
And tells me of the guilt within,
Upwards I look and see His face
Who made an end of all my sin.
Because the sinless Saviour died,
My sinful soul is counted free;
For God the just is satisfied
To look on Him and pardon me.'

 

[1689Dave]

Your example is not real world

Thankfully not. We are not to be of the world.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I disagree. Paul was not the most wicked after conversion. But certainly was before.

Well, by your accounts he is a liar, at least. Here he is saying that he is [Gk. eimi. Present Continuous Tense] the chief of sinners, and you're saying, no, he isn't.

If you, as he says, walk in the Spirit you will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh. And I'm certain Paul practiced what he preached. Certainly you have experienced this?

Well, the best I can say of myself is that I desire to keep God's righteous laws. 'Oh, that my ways were directed to keep Your statutes. Then I would not be ashamed when I look into all your commandments' (Psalm 119:5-6). Or as Paul would say, 'For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man, but I find another law in my members warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? I thank God-- through Christ Jesus my Lord!' (Romans 7:22-25).

 

[1689Dave]

Well, by your accounts he is a liar, at least. Here he is saying that he is [Gk. eimi. Present Continuous Tense] the chief of sinners, and you're saying, no, he isn't.

Well, the best I can say of myself is that I desire to keep God's righteous laws. 'Oh, that my ways were directed to keep Your statutes. Then I would not be ashamed when I look into all your commandments' (Psalm 119:5-6). Or as Paul would say, 'For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man, but I find another law in my members warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? I thank God-- through Christ Jesus my Lord!' (Romans 7:22-25).

How could Paul be as bad as you make him out to be if he walked in the Spirit, not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thankfully not. We are not to be of the world.

That doesn’t buy you any bread. Nor does it heat your house, or pay the doctor bills.

 

[1689Dave]

That doesn’t buy you any bread. Nor does it heat your house, or pay the doctor bills.

It did all of the above and more in my case.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How could Paul be as bad as you make him out to be if he walked in the Spirit, not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh?

Dave, do you live the life of a cloister? I’ve had 34 years of living as a Roman Catholic, sinning, feeling guilty, going into a confessional and being absolved of my sins... but then I realized that sin is all around me... I sin every day. And what’s more, a lot of time I like sinning. Again it’s reality, but you live in a world that feeds and takes care of the butterflies. BTW the two monistaries by me (one a Franciscan place & the other one being Benedictine) both closed. Apparently didn’t turn enough profit for the Bishop—even though it helped the community.

 

[kyredneck]

I disagree. Paul was not the most wicked after conversion. But certainly was before.

Well he felt that he was the most wicked mostly because he persecuted the church, in ignorance. Consider this:

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God. Jn 16

I don't know about you but I think that describes Paul's motive exactly. He literally thought he was serving God in trying to stamp out this new 'cult'.

4 and he fell upon the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

IMO, Christ knew exactly how to address this wayward child that He had separated from the womb to carry the gospel to the nations.

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutes: Acts 2

I don't perceive a 'wicked' God-hating enemy of God in that response, Can you imagine how crushing that was to him when he realized just how wrong he had been?

No, I don't think Paul was the most 'wicked' before his conversion, but he most certainly felt that he was.

 

[1689Dave]

Dave, do you live the life of a cloister? I’ve had 34 years of living as a Roman Catholic, sinning, feeling guilty, going into a confessional and being absolved of my sins... but then I realized that sin is all around me... I sin every day. And what’s more, a lot of time I like sinning. Again it’s reality, but you live in a world that feeds and takes care of the butterflies. BTW the two monistaries by me (one a Franciscan place & the other one being Benedictine) both closed. Apparently didn’t turn enough profit for the Bishop—even though it helped the community.

You are missing the point. Sin is a condition of the flesh (mind, soul). It is wicked. But in the New Birth, our human spirit (the part of us that says "I" "me") is no longer enslaved to the flesh. But under the influence of the Holy Spirit. And you can choose to follow the Spirit and resist the flesh. Or you can resist the Spirit and serve the flesh.

So this is why I censor thoughts and impulses from the flesh, and choose obedience to Christ instead. Do I sin outwardly doing this? Rarely. Do I sin inwardly doing this? Only if I yield to the wicked promptings of the flesh. Otherwise it is just temptation. Am I tempted? Yes, continuously at times it seems. But if I yield, I lose peace of mind. Wrestle with guilt. And cannot think straight in spiritual matters. Not to mention stifling the other fruits of the Spirit.

So I do as Paul says. Bring every thought captive into obedience to Christ and cast down imaginations. And think only on good edifying things, as stated previously.

 

[1689Dave]

Well he felt that he was the most wicked mostly because he persecuted the church, in ignorance. Consider this:

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God. Jn 16

I don't about you but I think that describes Paul's motive exactly. He literally thought he was serving God in trying to stamp out this new 'cult'.

4 and he fell upon the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

IMO, Christ knew exactly how to address this wayward child that He had separated from the womb to carry the gospel to the nations.

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutes: Acts 2

I don't perceive a 'wicked' God-hating enemy of God in that response, Can you imagine how crushing that was to him when he realized just how wrong he had been?

No, I don't think Paul was the most 'wicked' before his conversion, but he most certainly felt that he was.

Did Paul repent? Did Paul walk in the Spirit?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well he felt that he was the most wicked mostly because he persecuted the church, in ignorance. Consider this:

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God. Jn 16

I don't about you but I think that describes Paul's motive exactly. He literally thought he was serving God in trying to stamp out this new 'cult'.

4 and he fell upon the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

IMO, Christ knew exactly how to address this wayward child that He had separated from the womb to carry the gospel to the nations.

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutes: Acts 2

I don't perceive a 'wicked' God-hating enemy of God in that response, Can you imagine how crushing that was to him when he realized just how wrong he had been?

No, I don't think Paul was the most 'wicked' before his conversion, but he most certainly felt that he was.

The guy really is 1689 (hook, line and sinker) has anybody introduced him to iconoclast?