How should Christians judge America?

[MB]

I detest blatant refusal to acknowledge truth. I get upset & say stupid things like frick. You & I both know what I meant, eh?
You, on the other hand, preach about hate & division while calling me stupid. A winner there. Deep thoughts, by MB.

Well if anger makes you do stupid things then I can only assume this is also how you vote. Your bad Language is because you don't have control over your own actions. As far as truth. As soon as you speak some I will agree with it. I know you hate me because I disagree with you so what else is new? At least I can think for my self instead of the media doing it for me, or someone like you with no self control doing it for me.
MB

 

[Calminian]

I detest blatant refusal to acknowledge truth. I get upset & say stupid things like frick. You & I both know what I meant, eh?
You, on the other hand, preach about hate & division while calling me stupid. A winner there. Deep thoughts, by MB.

Don't feel bad. One of my favorite commentators is Pastor Robert Jeffress who appears on Fox a lot. Every once in a while he blurts out the word crap (pronounced crayyip) out of frustration. Just love him.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

I'm not sure where you're getting this. Are you saying the Bible commands Christians to take over counties and force them by the sword to become Christian? That's sounds like Islam to me.

Paul laid out the right attitude for the Christian and the governing authority he found himself under. Obey laws and give your country taxes customers fear and honor. There is no order to take over countries and force Christianity on them. Be good citizens and by extension a good witnesses.

If a country is willing to give you freedom to speak your mind, thank God for it, and use the opportunity to persuade men. Trashing the theology of a country's founders is kind of meaningless. Yes, some were Christians some weren't, but it's kind of irrelevant. Christianity flourished in America even as it died in Europe, and early values of America paved the way for this. I see it as a blessing from God, whom all governments come from (Romans 13).

Are you of the opinion that this continent was unoccupied when the Christian colonists arrived?

I asked leading questions to which so far, I have gotten no enlightening responses.

God gave land to be conquered by His people. They were to kill man, beast and crops. They failed mainly due to lust (sin).

He never gave similar instructions to His church.

 

[Calminian]

Are you of the opinion that this continent was unoccupied when the Christian colonists arrived?

No. Who told you that?

God gave land to be conquered by His people. They were to kill man, beast and crops. They failed mainly due to lust (sin).

He never gave similar instructions to His church.

You're right. And the Church did not conquer America, England did, to some extent, though much of America was open frontier land. So I'm confused as to what on earth you're actually talking about. The Church is not a nation, it's a community of professing believers who submit to governing authorities, and extend them taxes, customs, fear and honor.

 

[Wingman68]

Well if anger makes you do stupid things then I can only assume this is also how you vote. Your bad Language is because you don't have control over your own actions. As far as truth. As soon as you speak some I will agree with it. I know you hate me because I disagree with you so what else is new? At least I can think for my self instead of the media doing it for me, or someone like you with no self control doing it for me.
MB

Hahahahaha, thanks for the laugh. I don’t hate you, if I did, I wouldn’t be taking the time to have this discussion. I am over being insulted by you, however, so have a nice day.

 

[Calminian]

Don't feel bad. One of my favorite commentators is Pastor Robert Jeffress who appears on Fox a lot. Every once in a while he blurts out the word crap (pronounced crayyip) out of frustration. Just love him.

Here's some vintage Jeffress. Sometimes you just have to rant a little.

 

[MB]

Are you of the opinion that this continent was unoccupied when the Christian colonists arrived?

I asked leading questions to which so far, I have gotten no enlightening responses.

God gave land to be conquered by His people. They were to kill man, beast and crops. They failed mainly due to lust (sin).

He never gave similar instructions to His church.

Christ did give instructions the most important of is "Love they neighbor as thy self" How often we fail at this simple Law.
MB.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

I'm not sure where you're getting this. Are you saying the Bible commands Christians to take over counties and force them by the sword to become Christian? That's sounds like Islam to me.

Where I am getting what?

No, I have not said anything about the Bible commanding Christians to "taking over" countries by force. Share my statement that led you to that conclusion, or make a retraction.

I, perhaps mistakenly, thought that the impetuous for many of the colonist leaving England was to escape religious persecution.

Topic: Christianity in the U.S.
"Christianity has been in the United States since before the U.S. was established as a country. Christianity was established in the early colonial period when settlers from Europe brought Christianity along with them. Many settlers, such as the Pilgrims, settled in the United States in order to escape persecution of their particular denomination of Christianity in Europe."

Did these Christian settlers use superior weaponry to convince the inhabitants to give up and abandoned their land? Does that sound like Islam to you?

The Church is not a nation, it's a community of professing believers

I agree, the Church is not a nation nor a political body. However, it is not a community of professing believers. The Church is a community of called-out (by God) born-again believers.

 

[37818]

Do you believe all men are created equal?

Man was made in God's image, Genesis 1:26; And also Acts of the Apostles 17:26.

Where in scripture is it said that God endowed all of mankind with life, liberty and . . . .

Life, Genesis 9:5-6; Exodus 20:13.

Right now I am out of time . . . .

 

[Wingman68]

Don’t forget the power. That is paramount. They could have all the money in the world, & they would still crave the power. They would still not tolerate anyone to do or think other than their way. Power over the people, not by the people. That is their way.

Democrat Party to Vote on Censuring Arizona Sen. Kyrsten Sinema for Not Opposing Everything Trump Does

Case in point: even in a state that elected Trump, a dem senator is being punished for only voting against Trump 81% of the time. Not good enough, it must be 100%. They don’t give a fig about what may benefit constituents, just the partyline.

 

[poor-in-spirit]

Great new Video at PragerU really got me thinking.

Goodbye, America

Same is true regarding America. "America was built on genocide and slavery, and, therefore, is and always will be wicked." Never mind that we fought a bloody civil war over slavery. Never mind its world-leading strides in civil rights. And never mind the founding principles that made those triumphs possible! "We are evil!" That's the message the leftist teaches our kids in schools and universities (at the great expense of their parents).

And I see this creeping into Christian thought as well. Even Christians are starting to feel very uncomfortable about American patriotism. "Can I possibly think approvingly of a nation with a sinful past?"

But is this really a biblical perspective? Should Christians look to past sins, or present progress? Do we focus on historical sins, or modern triumphs?

Of course the latter is true. Any true Christian is keenly aware of their own past wretchedness. But I see the false religion of leftism creeping into the Church and confusing many in this regard.

Ah, what if this is the lie of 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12?

Starting to seem that way. Most of the rest of the industrialized world has had their own versions of this lie for decades now (EU, Australia, Canada, etc.).

The goal of the left is a one-world government run by the elite ruling class (under the beast, perhaps?). Oh, the rank and file minions don't understand this. They only understand their brainwashing from media and academia. The latest generations: Gen X to some extent, much of the Millennial and the vast majority of Z of the industrialized world are brainwashed into this progressive lie, including the false religious of "christianity" thanks to public education (indoctrination) and the media.

Remember when most denominations use to warn against public schools and TV, even the internet when it became popular? Remember when they used to warn against the very idea of a one-world government as the sign of the beast's coming? Most if not all seem silent now. Well, here we are: Now, most of what identifies as "christian" (even the seemingly elect) are ready for his mark (open border, socialism).

https://www.jesussaidwhat.com/trump-derangement-or-strong-delusio

 

[MB]

Ah, what if this is the lie of 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12?

Starting to seem that way. Most of the rest of the industrialized world has had their own versions of this lie for decades now (EU, Australia, Canada, etc.).

The goal of the left is a one-world government run by the elite ruling class (under the beast, perhaps?). Oh, the rank and file minions don't understand this. They only understand their brainwashing from media and academia. The latest generations: Gen X to some extent, much of the Millennial and the vast majority of Z of the industrialized world are brainwashed into this progressive lie, including the false religious of "christianity" thanks to public education (indoctrination) and the media.

Remember when most denominations use to warn against public schools and TV, even the internet when it became popular? Remember when they used to warn against the very idea of a one-world government as the sign of the beast's coming? Most if not all seem silent now. Well, here we are: Now, most of what identifies as "christian" (even the seemingly elect) are ready for his mark (open border, socialism).

https://www.jesussaidwhat.com/trump-derangement-or-strong-delusio

True but I don't think some on this thread understands this.
MB

 

[Wingman68]

True but I don't think some on this thread understands this.
MB

Bless your heart.

 

[agedman]

I didn’t read many of the replies, it seemed they generated unnecessary heat.

The OP question “How should Christians judge America.”

The short answer is as they judge anything, anyone, anyplace that is ungodly.

Christian citizenship is not of any earthly kingdom. But we must be careful to be recognized as ambassadors and of that King and Kingdom in which is from the Father.

Why then is there concern over “how”?

The world is condemned.
Nations are all condemned.
All have sinned. All are condemned ALREADY.

If there is a message, a prayer to be offered it should be for believers to get out of the world and worldly. Quit sitting with scorners at a ball game or in front of the media. Quit the paths of sinners, and heed the counsels of God rather than man.

If one is going to pray, let it be that of John, “Even so, come, Lord Jesus!”

Do not fret or be dismayed by the kingdoms of this world. They all belong to the deceiver.

Rather, contend for the King of kings, and store in that place what the this world has no capacity to even consider.

 

[Calminian]

I didn’t read many of the replies, it seemed they generated unnecessary heat.

The OP question “How should Christians judge America.”

The short answer is as they judge anything, anyone, anyplace that is ungodly.

Christian citizenship is not of any earthly kingdom. But we must be careful to be recognized as ambassadors and of that King and Kingdom in which is from the Father.

Why then is there concern over “how”?

The world is condemned.
Nations are all condemned.
All have sinned. All are condemned ALREADY.

If there is a message, a prayer to be offered it should be for believers to get out of the world and worldly. Quit sitting with scorners at a ball game or in front of the media. Quit the paths of sinners, and heed the counsels of God rather than man.

If one is going to pray, let it be that of John, “Even so, come, Lord Jesus!”

Do not fret or be dismayed by the kingdoms of this world. They all belong to the deceiver.

Rather, contend for the King of kings, and store in that place what the this world has no capacity to even consider.

That's not exactly the point of the OP. The question is, do we judge based on past moral perfection or current moral direction? That would go for nations as well as individuals.

 

[Calminian]

...I agree, the Church is not a nation nor a political body. However, it is not a community of professing believers. The Church is a community of called-out (by God) born-again believers.

According to Jesus the Church is a community of wheats and tares (Matt. 13:24-30). That's why I include the word professing. There will always be unbelievers in the pews needing the warnings of the epistles. In the end, the wheats and tares of the Church will be separated, but Jesus commanded us not to try and completely purify the Church on our own. The ultimate judgement will be left to him (Matt. 13:24-30).

But again, I'm not sure what point you are making about America's origins. The Church is not a nation, and so a nations origins are somewhat irrelevant to the commands Paul gave us. Paul lived in Rome which also had questionable origins. Yet, Paul called himself a Roman citizen and even appealed to its authority on occasion.

Pointing out a nation's sins as an excuse for dishonoring it doesn't fly in the NT. You're fighting against God on this. Praying for a nation, and going through legal channels to make it more righteous is the route Christians should take, especially on issues like abortion. Sitting out and mocking those working for justice, is the worst of all possible options.

 

[agedman]

That's not exactly the point of the OP. The question is, do we just past perfection or current direction? That would go for nations as well as individuals.

Does not the Scripture state that the evil of today is sufficient to be considered?

Each day stands in the accounting of God, but to believers we are to contend with the evil that oppresses our day and not that which extends beyond the authority of the ambassador.

Paul states our prayers should be intercession for the rulers, not condemnation. Why condemn that which is already condemned?

Too often politics gains entrance onto the checkerboard live of the believer.

One should remember that the Scriptures teach that the wrestler needs to focus upon the game which takes place at a heavenly level and leave alone the distractions of the flesh and blood.

 

[Calminian]

Does not the Scripture state that the evil of today is sufficient to be considered?

Each day stands in the accounting of God, but to believers we are to contend with the evil that oppresses our day and not that which extends beyond the authority of the ambassador.

Paul states our prayers should be intercession for the rulers, not condemnation. Why condemn that which is already condemned?

Hmmm. We're definitely looking at this differently. Scripture, as I read it, doesn't speak of governments as condemned. If you read Romans 13 government is spoken of as a gift from god to the innocent and a terror to the guilty. And when we read revelation and other prophetic passages, government will be perfected at Christ's return when he rules over the nations in this millennial kingdom.

The nations will also be purified and redeemed under Christ's rule. You seem to talk about government as intrinsically evil, but that's not the message of the Scripture. Kind of reminds me of the gnostic heresy, where matter is unjustifiably considered intrinsically evil.

Jesus will one day purify and shoulder the government and the nations. That's the message of Scripture. In the meantime, government (as imperfect as it is) is in place for our benefit, and should be honored and respected (Romans 13:7)

I think this is what's separating our outlook on this subject.

 

[agedman]

Hmmm. We're definitely looking at this differently. Scripture, as I read it, doesn't speak of governments as condemned. If you read Romans 13 government is spoken of as a gift from god to the innocent and a terror to the guilty. And when we read revelation and other prophetic passages, government will be perfected at Christ's return when he rules over the nations in this millennial kingdom.

The nations will also be purified and redeemed under Christ's rule. You seem to talk about government as intrinsically evil, but that's not the message of the Scripture. Kind of reminds me of the gnostic heresy, where matter is unjustifiably considered intrinsically evil.

Jesus will one day purify and shoulder the government and the nations. That's the message of Scripture. In the meantime, government (as imperfect as it is) is in place for our benefit, and should be honored and respected (Romans 13:7)

I think this is what's separating our outlook on this subject.

When the King returns to rule, the believers rule with Him. Until then we, as you pointed out, are to submit.
Romans 13:

1Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.​

Were we seem to differ is in the matter of how governments are treated upon the return of Christ. You see them perfected, I see them obliterated and believers placed as rulers.

Christ does not take on corruption, for that mission was completed. The King is absolute. As we reign with Him (2 Timothy 2:12, Revelation 20:4) the people are therefore ruled. Not by human installed institutions, but by the King and His designated rulers (believers).

Between now and then we are to submit, pray for, and obey the leadership.

Leadership, “of the people, by the people, for the people” is not the same as leadership of glorified believers, by glorified believers, for the people of the millennium who at the end are again deceived.

 

[Calminian]

...Christ does not take on corruption, for that mission was completed. The King is absolute. As we reign with Him (2 Timothy 2:12, Revelation 20:4) the people are therefore ruled. Not by human installed institutions, but by the King and His designated rulers (believers)....

Yet Paul says the opposite.

Rom. 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.​

I don't see how you can get around this. Paul sharply disagrees with you on this. He does not say governments are human installed, and to be temporarily obeyed, etc. etc. He says the current government system is from God as a minster to those who obey and do good.

Leadership, “of the people, by the people, for the people” is not the same as leadership of glorified believers, by glorified believers, for the people of the millennium who at the end are again deceived.

Yes, but even the modern government of the US, by, for and of the people, must be from God. Therefore, if you are a citizen of the US, you have a God-given position of authority. If you ignore this position and refuse to vote, you're ignoring the position God gave you.