Matt22:37-39
New Member
Wow you are so wrong too...I don't need to go anywhere to collect anything for my book it is all in my head and in the bible..again nice try lol...you know what they say about assuming!
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How should christians treat the saved homosexual?
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Wow you are so wrong too...I don't need to go anywhere to collect anything for my book it is all in my head and in the bible..again nice try lol...you know what they say about assuming!
Matt22:37-39
New Member
Like I sad I'm not God I do not control my ADULT children's lives....God does, just like He does mine.
TREAT OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM TREAT YOU...
I believe in predestination....I find it hard to believe that those here who believe GOD CHOOSE US BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD...would then be surprised to find one or more of their kids WEREN'T Chosen....so contradicting, wouldn't you say!
I'm proud of both my boys saved or not....I'm sorry that RD isn't
Matt22:37-39
New Member
Then pastors better wake up and preach the whole counsel of God's word instead of TOPICAL sermons and RELATIONSHIP sermons and FLUFF sermons.
Like any business or marriage etc. it is the LEADERS job to set the standard and then allow God to work....you can't force anyone even yourself to do right so why do you think you can others?
I've written on here what it takes to draw close to God...it takes those who claim to know Him who claim to be spiritual to WALK along side a weaker brother and help guide them through prayer, scripture, accountability, love, acceptance, not judging them, meeting their needs etc...not by condemning and being mean to them....then we wonder why people SIN they are looking for something (God) they are not GETTING IN THE CHURCH...because of ABUSE!
You are proud that your child isn't saved? You can be proud of your accomplishments but since Jesus Christ died to save the unsaved, I'd hope that you would have a bit of a broken heart for an unsaved child. You do realize unsaved means an eternity in hell, right?
Matt22:37-39
New Member
Romans 14 - Helping a Weaker Brother
A. Don’t judge each other in doubtful things.
1. (1-2) Receiving the weaker brother.
Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
a. We must receive (accept) the one who is weak in the faith; but we are not to receive them for the sake of carrying on a debate with them regarding doubtful things.
i. Receive the one who is weak in the faith: These are words to take seriously. Paul warns us to not make spiritual maturity a requirement for fellowship. We should distinguish between someone who is weak and someone who is rebellious.
ii. There are many reasons why a Christian might be weak.
· They may be a babe in Christ (babies are weak)
· They may be sick or diseased (by legalism)
· They may be malnourished (by lack of good teaching)
· They may lack exercise (needing exhortation)
b. Eats only vegetables: As an example of a doubtful thing, Paul looks at those who refuse to eat meat for a spiritual reason. Perhaps they refused it because they feared it was meat sacrificed to a pagan god (as in 1 Corinthians 8). Perhaps they refused the meat because it wasn't kosher, and they stuck to Jewish dietary regulations and traditions.
i. Because some Christian saw nothing wrong in this meat and others saw much wrong in it, this was a burning issue among believers in Paul's day. While the issue of not eating meat for spiritual reasons is no longer directly relevant to most Christians today, there are plenty of issues where some believers believe one way and others believe differently.
c. He who is weak eats only vegetables: In Paul’s mind, the weak brother is the stricter one. It wasn't that they were weaker in their Christian life because of what they ate or didn't eat, but they were weaker because of their legalistic attitudes and lack of love towards others.
i. Undoubtedly these weak ones did not see themselves as weaker. It's likely they thought they were the strong ones, and the meat-eaters were the weak ones. Legalism has a way of making us think that we are strong and those who don't keep the rules the way we do are weak.
2. (3-4) Judging our brother is inappropriate because we are not their masters.
Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
a. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat: It would be easy for a Christian who felt free to eat meat to despise those who did not feel free as hopeless legalists. It would also be easy for those who did not eat such meat to judge those who did - but God has received those Christians who eat meat.
b. Who are you to judge another’s servant? Paul reminds us that it isn’t our place to pass judgment on any fellow Christian. They stand or fall before their own Master, God - and God is able to make those “meat eaters” stand.
i. There is a lot of useless, harmful division among Christians over silly, bigoted things. Paul isn't telling these Christians to erase their differences; he tells them to rise above them as Christian brothers and sisters.
3. (5-6) Judging our brother is inappropriate because these are matters of conscience.
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
a. One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike: By bringing in the aspect of observing certain days, Paul lets us know that he is talking more about principles than specific issues. What he says has application to more than just eating meat.
b. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind: In such issues, Paul is willing to leave it up to the conscience of the individual. But whatever we do, we must be able to do it to the Lord, not using “conscience” as an excuse for obviously sinful behavior.
4. (7-9) We live and die to the Lord.
For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
a. For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself: We must understand that from beginning to end our life is connected to other lives. Paul reminds the Roman Christians that “No man is an island.”
b. Whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s: From beginning to end, our lives are to be dedicated to God. Therefore, whatever we do, we do it to the Lord - because Jesus is our Lord (that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living).
5. (10-12) Judging our brother is inappropriate because we will all face judgment before Jesus.
But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
a. But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? Probably, the use of both judge and show contempt is meant to have application to both the “strict” and the “free” individuals. In either case, the attitude is wrong because we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
i. The strict Christian found it easy to judge his brother, writing him off as an unspiritual meat-eater-compromiser. The free Christian found it easy to show contempt against his brother, regarding him as a uptight-legalistic-goody-good. Essentially, Paul's answer is "Stop worrying about your brother. You have enough to answer for before Jesus."
ii. The judgment seat of Christ: “This is the bema seat, equivalent to the judge’s seat in the Olympic Games. After each game, the winners came before the judge’s seat to receive crowns for first, second and third places. Likewise, the Christian’s works will be tested by fire, and he’ll be rewarded for those which remain . . . The judgment seat of Christ is only concerned with a Christian’s rewards and position in the kingdom, not with his salvation.” (Smith)
A. Don’t judge each other in doubtful things.
1. (1-2) Receiving the weaker brother.
Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
a. We must receive (accept) the one who is weak in the faith; but we are not to receive them for the sake of carrying on a debate with them regarding doubtful things.
i. Receive the one who is weak in the faith: These are words to take seriously. Paul warns us to not make spiritual maturity a requirement for fellowship. We should distinguish between someone who is weak and someone who is rebellious.
ii. There are many reasons why a Christian might be weak.
· They may be a babe in Christ (babies are weak)
· They may be sick or diseased (by legalism)
· They may be malnourished (by lack of good teaching)
· They may lack exercise (needing exhortation)
b. Eats only vegetables: As an example of a doubtful thing, Paul looks at those who refuse to eat meat for a spiritual reason. Perhaps they refused it because they feared it was meat sacrificed to a pagan god (as in 1 Corinthians 8). Perhaps they refused the meat because it wasn't kosher, and they stuck to Jewish dietary regulations and traditions.
i. Because some Christian saw nothing wrong in this meat and others saw much wrong in it, this was a burning issue among believers in Paul's day. While the issue of not eating meat for spiritual reasons is no longer directly relevant to most Christians today, there are plenty of issues where some believers believe one way and others believe differently.
c. He who is weak eats only vegetables: In Paul’s mind, the weak brother is the stricter one. It wasn't that they were weaker in their Christian life because of what they ate or didn't eat, but they were weaker because of their legalistic attitudes and lack of love towards others.
i. Undoubtedly these weak ones did not see themselves as weaker. It's likely they thought they were the strong ones, and the meat-eaters were the weak ones. Legalism has a way of making us think that we are strong and those who don't keep the rules the way we do are weak.
2. (3-4) Judging our brother is inappropriate because we are not their masters.
Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
a. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat: It would be easy for a Christian who felt free to eat meat to despise those who did not feel free as hopeless legalists. It would also be easy for those who did not eat such meat to judge those who did - but God has received those Christians who eat meat.
b. Who are you to judge another’s servant? Paul reminds us that it isn’t our place to pass judgment on any fellow Christian. They stand or fall before their own Master, God - and God is able to make those “meat eaters” stand.
i. There is a lot of useless, harmful division among Christians over silly, bigoted things. Paul isn't telling these Christians to erase their differences; he tells them to rise above them as Christian brothers and sisters.
3. (5-6) Judging our brother is inappropriate because these are matters of conscience.
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
a. One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike: By bringing in the aspect of observing certain days, Paul lets us know that he is talking more about principles than specific issues. What he says has application to more than just eating meat.
b. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind: In such issues, Paul is willing to leave it up to the conscience of the individual. But whatever we do, we must be able to do it to the Lord, not using “conscience” as an excuse for obviously sinful behavior.
4. (7-9) We live and die to the Lord.
For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
a. For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself: We must understand that from beginning to end our life is connected to other lives. Paul reminds the Roman Christians that “No man is an island.”
b. Whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s: From beginning to end, our lives are to be dedicated to God. Therefore, whatever we do, we do it to the Lord - because Jesus is our Lord (that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living).
5. (10-12) Judging our brother is inappropriate because we will all face judgment before Jesus.
But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
a. But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? Probably, the use of both judge and show contempt is meant to have application to both the “strict” and the “free” individuals. In either case, the attitude is wrong because we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
i. The strict Christian found it easy to judge his brother, writing him off as an unspiritual meat-eater-compromiser. The free Christian found it easy to show contempt against his brother, regarding him as a uptight-legalistic-goody-good. Essentially, Paul's answer is "Stop worrying about your brother. You have enough to answer for before Jesus."
ii. The judgment seat of Christ: “This is the bema seat, equivalent to the judge’s seat in the Olympic Games. After each game, the winners came before the judge’s seat to receive crowns for first, second and third places. Likewise, the Christian’s works will be tested by fire, and he’ll be rewarded for those which remain . . . The judgment seat of Christ is only concerned with a Christian’s rewards and position in the kingdom, not with his salvation.” (Smith)
Matt22:37-39
New Member
b. Every knee shall bow: The quotation from Isaiah 45:23 emphasizes the fact that all will have to appear before God in humility, and give account of himself before God. If this is the case, we should let God deal with our brother.
6. (13) Summary: don’t make it an issue of judging, but don’t use your liberty to stumble another brother.
Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.
a. Let us not judge one another: In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus helped us to understand what this means - it means judging others according to a standard that we would not want to have applied to our self.
i. This does not take away the need and the responsibility for admonishment (Romans 15:14) or rebuke (2 Timothy 4:2). When we admonish or rebuke, we do it over clear Scriptural principles, not over doubtful things. We may offer advice to others about doubtful things, but should never judge them.
b. Not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way: We might stumble or cause our brother to fall in two ways. We can discourage or beat them down through our legalism against them, or we can do it by enticing them to sin through an unwise use of our liberty.
B. Don’t stumble each other over doubtful things.
1. (14-15) Destroying a brother makes a privilege wrong.
I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
a. I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself: Paul knew that there was nothing intrinsically unclean about meat that was not kosher or sacrificed to an idol. Yet there was nothing that could justify the destruction of a Christian brother over food.
i. Trapp on I know and am convinced: "Many, on the contrary, are persuaded before they know; and such will not be persuaded to know."
b. The issue now is not my personal liberty; it is walking in love towards a brother that Jesus loves and died for.
c. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died: If Jesus was willing to give up His life for the sake of that brother, I can certainly give up my steak dinner!
2. (16-18) Pursuing the higher call of the Kingdom of God.
Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
a. Do not let your good be spoken of as evil: Our liberty in Jesus and freedom from the law is good, but not if we use it to destroy another brother in Christ. If we do that, then it could rightly be spoken of as evil.
b. If we place food and drink before righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, then we are hopelessly out of touch with God’s priorities and His heart.
c. Serving God with a heart for His righteousness and peace and joy is the kind of service that is acceptable in His sight, and will be approved by men.
3. (19-21) Use your liberty to build each other up, not to tear each other down.
Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.
a. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food: If eating or drinking something will stumble another brother, then we are not free to do so. Even if we have the personal liberty, we do not have the liberty to stumble, offend, or weaken a brother.
b. All things indeed are pure: Paul will concede the point that there is nothing impure in the food itself; but he likewise insists that there is nothing pure in causing a brother to stumble.
c. Nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak: However, we shouldn’t think that Paul would permit this kind of heart to cater to someone’s legalism. Paul speaks about the stumbling of a sincere heart, not catering to the whims of someone’s legalism.
i. For example, when some Christians from a Jewish background were offended that Gentile believers were not circumcised, Paul didn't cater to their legalistic demands.
4. (22-23) The concluding principle of faith.
Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
a. Do you have faith? If you have [strong] faith, and feel liberty to partake of certain things, praise God! But have your strong faith before God, not before a brother who will stumble.
b. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves: Not every Christian knows this happiness. There are things God may challenge us to give up, but we go on approving them in our life - thus we condemn ourselves. It may not be that they thing itself is clearly good or bad, but it is enough that God has spoken to us about this matter.
i. Each of us must ask: "God what is there in my life hindering a closer walk with You? I want to know the happiness that comes from not condemning myself by what I approve in my life." This takes faith, because we often cling to hindering things because we think they make us happy. Real happiness is found being closer and closer to Jesus, and by not being condemned by what we approve.
c. Whatever is not from faith is sin: Paul concludes with another principle by which we can judge “gray areas” - if we can’t do it in faith, then it is sin.
i. This is a wonderful check on our tendency to justify ourselves in the things we permit. If we are troubled by something, it likely isn’t of faith and likely is sin for us.
6. (13) Summary: don’t make it an issue of judging, but don’t use your liberty to stumble another brother.
Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.
a. Let us not judge one another: In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus helped us to understand what this means - it means judging others according to a standard that we would not want to have applied to our self.
i. This does not take away the need and the responsibility for admonishment (Romans 15:14) or rebuke (2 Timothy 4:2). When we admonish or rebuke, we do it over clear Scriptural principles, not over doubtful things. We may offer advice to others about doubtful things, but should never judge them.
b. Not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way: We might stumble or cause our brother to fall in two ways. We can discourage or beat them down through our legalism against them, or we can do it by enticing them to sin through an unwise use of our liberty.
B. Don’t stumble each other over doubtful things.
1. (14-15) Destroying a brother makes a privilege wrong.
I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
a. I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself: Paul knew that there was nothing intrinsically unclean about meat that was not kosher or sacrificed to an idol. Yet there was nothing that could justify the destruction of a Christian brother over food.
i. Trapp on I know and am convinced: "Many, on the contrary, are persuaded before they know; and such will not be persuaded to know."
b. The issue now is not my personal liberty; it is walking in love towards a brother that Jesus loves and died for.
c. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died: If Jesus was willing to give up His life for the sake of that brother, I can certainly give up my steak dinner!
2. (16-18) Pursuing the higher call of the Kingdom of God.
Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
a. Do not let your good be spoken of as evil: Our liberty in Jesus and freedom from the law is good, but not if we use it to destroy another brother in Christ. If we do that, then it could rightly be spoken of as evil.
b. If we place food and drink before righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, then we are hopelessly out of touch with God’s priorities and His heart.
c. Serving God with a heart for His righteousness and peace and joy is the kind of service that is acceptable in His sight, and will be approved by men.
3. (19-21) Use your liberty to build each other up, not to tear each other down.
Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.
a. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food: If eating or drinking something will stumble another brother, then we are not free to do so. Even if we have the personal liberty, we do not have the liberty to stumble, offend, or weaken a brother.
b. All things indeed are pure: Paul will concede the point that there is nothing impure in the food itself; but he likewise insists that there is nothing pure in causing a brother to stumble.
c. Nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak: However, we shouldn’t think that Paul would permit this kind of heart to cater to someone’s legalism. Paul speaks about the stumbling of a sincere heart, not catering to the whims of someone’s legalism.
i. For example, when some Christians from a Jewish background were offended that Gentile believers were not circumcised, Paul didn't cater to their legalistic demands.
4. (22-23) The concluding principle of faith.
Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
a. Do you have faith? If you have [strong] faith, and feel liberty to partake of certain things, praise God! But have your strong faith before God, not before a brother who will stumble.
b. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves: Not every Christian knows this happiness. There are things God may challenge us to give up, but we go on approving them in our life - thus we condemn ourselves. It may not be that they thing itself is clearly good or bad, but it is enough that God has spoken to us about this matter.
i. Each of us must ask: "God what is there in my life hindering a closer walk with You? I want to know the happiness that comes from not condemning myself by what I approve in my life." This takes faith, because we often cling to hindering things because we think they make us happy. Real happiness is found being closer and closer to Jesus, and by not being condemned by what we approve.
c. Whatever is not from faith is sin: Paul concludes with another principle by which we can judge “gray areas” - if we can’t do it in faith, then it is sin.
i. This is a wonderful check on our tendency to justify ourselves in the things we permit. If we are troubled by something, it likely isn’t of faith and likely is sin for us.
It is not likely you understand what a topical sermon is.
Matt22:37-39
New Member
wow I can't believe you are actually saying what you are saying it is so unbiblical...
no one can make any saved and it isn't for me to judge my sons heart...he says he is and he can't be talked out of it.
So what do you suggest I do to make my son saved?...lol...I pray for my boys that is all I and RD can do...I mean if RD can't get his lesbian daughter to get saved why are you even attacking me?...talk about pride...*shakes head*...what part about predestination do you not get?
Matt22:37-39
New Member
Ann, I always say when I go to heaven I am going to be SURPRISED to see who IS there and who ISN'T there...
wow I can't believe you are actually saying what you are saying it is so unbiblical...
no one can make any saved and it isn't for me to judge my sons heart...he says he is and he can't be talked out of it.
So what do you suggest I do to make my son saved?...lol...I pray for my boys that is all I and RD can do...I mean if RD can't get his lesbian daughter to get saved why are you even attacking me?...talk about pride...*shakes head*...what part about predestination do you not get?
Yes, I understand predestination but it doesn't mean that we get to sit on our laurels and say "It's not my problem." Instead we are to preach the Gospel. We are to show Christ to all. We do not accept sin and say it's OK.
Why not say something to RD? Because his heart is broken about his daughter. He has spent countless hours on his knees praying for her because he knows she's lost and needs the Lord. I'm not sure you feel that your son needs the Lord. He's good enough as he is and you're fine with that. But a parent who truly knows the Lord and knows - or even has doubts that their child is not saved will wear out the carpet next to their bed praying for their child.
Matt22:37-39
New Member
IT ISN'T MY PROBLEM...DUH IT IS MY SONS???
BTW, showing Christ is by love...when did Christ do anything thing you legalistic are recommending?...if I remember he attacked legalistic....not sinners...think about that one.
So you are saying POUND THE GOSPEL into peoples heads...maybe you didn't read what I wrote...my boys were raised in a LOVING Christian home, I used the bible to point to their sin growing up, they went to church 3 times a week, they went to Christian school more bible....they are now adults so now they make their own choices...so did you have your parents tell you every move you should make as an adult? If you did I feel sorry for you and if you do that to your kids I feel sorry for them...please make some sense when replying to me or I'm done with you.
And if RD's daughter is living in sin, I can see why that is, that is what LEGALISM does to kids, it makes them rebel.
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Matt22:37-39
New Member
Why Church Kids Rebel (Part 2)
Home > Pastors Blog > Why Church Kids Rebel (Part 2)
Over the past couple of weeks it seems many of my conversations have been about “church kids.” You know the type…
· They’re in Sunday school every week and always have the right answers
· They participate in AWANA or some other type of bible club
· They sing in the children’s choir
· They correct you that Jonah was not swallowed by a whale but a big fish
· They know the stories about Noah’s ark, Samson’s donkey bone, and David’s sling
· They go through confirmation, catechism, or they would say they’ve prayed a prayer, walked an aisle, or been baptized
· They go to church camp and retreats
· They serve as youth leaders for the “bad” kids
· And they go on mission trips with the youth group
One other important point is that many of these same kids are rebelling against the church and Christianity in droves! Why do church kids rebel? We’ve been in conversations with weeping parents who say, “We home-schooled our son/daughter, we did all the programs, we volunteered in AWANA, they went on mission trips and now they want nothing to do with Jesus, the church, or the bible. Where did we go wrong?
Unfortunately, the Christian church is famous for shooting their wounded rather than “weeping with those who weep.” Christians love to turn to Proverbs 22:6 and say, “Don’t worry, you’ve trained them right, eventually, they’ll be back to the Lord.” But, is that true? You know as well as I do that many never return. Or they’ll use this verse to tell parents, “You obviously did not “train up your child in the way he should go” otherwise you wouldn’t have this problem today. Gee, thanks…that helps…I won’t be sharing my problems with anyone anymore.
Is it a secret formula where some parents figure it out and others don’t? Is there some way to guarantee your child will never rebel? Over the next few weeks, I hope to share some reasons I believe church kids rebel.
Reason #1: They’ve Never Been Regenerated (Click here to view)
Reason #2: Legalism in the Home and/or Church
Last week I wrote about the #1 reason for church kids to rebel was because they’ve never been regenerated. Technically, if they don’t have a new heart, they’ve really never rebelled. Instead, they’re acting out of their own sinful nature and doing what’s actually normal for them. It may be seen as rebellion because they’ve “always been good kids” but, on the inside, they were full of “dead man’s bones.”
Be a Good Boy!
Think about your two-year old, whom you are diligently training not to be selfish, not to be hurtful, and to sit quietly. Think about what you are asking of him. “Be a good boy for mommy” has become your rallying cry! You are asking him to be loving, joyful, peaceful, kind, and patient but without the Spirit of God living in him. In other words, you are expecting that two year old to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit in his own flesh. Is that even possible? How frustrating it must be for them when they’re only acting according to their natures and want to stop being “bad” but can’t .
Teen Ministry is Easy
When I was in student ministry, I used to tell the children’s ministry guy, “You have the hardest job in the church.” To which he would reply, “No way, kids are easy! You just have to make sure they’re safe, have clean diapers, and teach bible stories while they patiently sit. The teenagers are the hardest to work with.” But, the more you think about it; these kids will obey because of the fact that adults are bigger, stronger, and authoritative. You can get them to obey essentially because they’re scared of you. You have no idea who is genuinely interested in spiritual things and who has been trained to be “good.” Teenagers on the other hand are easy. They aren’t scared of you. Once you’ve worked with teens for a while it’s pretty easy to see who’s faking it and who isn’t. If you haven’t reached their heart, you’re the first to know it.
While I will be the first to say that we need to teach our little ones what is proper and what isn’t, I would caution parents and pastors to be careful not to mistake “good” behavior, proper clothing, or biblical answers for a heart that is seeking after the things of God. Instead, they may be self-righteous or simply used to playing by the rules. As they get older, they either swing towards the legalism and self-righteousness they’re used to, or the pendulum swings from legalism to licentiousness.
As you read back through the gospels, is there any group of people whom Jesus is harsher on than the legalistic Pharisees? I challenge you to find one. When Jesus rebuked them, He ridiculed the good looking outside due to the rottenness that characterized their sinful hearts on the inside.
It is EASY to get your child to stop doing bad behavior! That’s what our government uses the prison system for. It is a temporary (sometimes permanent) “time out” for those in our society that can’t play by the rules. This method of discipline in our homes has us confining them to their rooms, taking away their stuff, and keeping them away from certain people. But, if their hearts are not repentant, this is a temporary fix at best. As soon as you put your guard down, it will be like letting a balloon loose without tying the end. I am not saying that you shouldn’t do that as parents! I am saying that there has to be more than that if you’re going to reach their hearts!
Home > Pastors Blog > Why Church Kids Rebel (Part 2)
Over the past couple of weeks it seems many of my conversations have been about “church kids.” You know the type…
· They’re in Sunday school every week and always have the right answers
· They participate in AWANA or some other type of bible club
· They sing in the children’s choir
· They correct you that Jonah was not swallowed by a whale but a big fish
· They know the stories about Noah’s ark, Samson’s donkey bone, and David’s sling
· They go through confirmation, catechism, or they would say they’ve prayed a prayer, walked an aisle, or been baptized
· They go to church camp and retreats
· They serve as youth leaders for the “bad” kids
· And they go on mission trips with the youth group
One other important point is that many of these same kids are rebelling against the church and Christianity in droves! Why do church kids rebel? We’ve been in conversations with weeping parents who say, “We home-schooled our son/daughter, we did all the programs, we volunteered in AWANA, they went on mission trips and now they want nothing to do with Jesus, the church, or the bible. Where did we go wrong?
Unfortunately, the Christian church is famous for shooting their wounded rather than “weeping with those who weep.” Christians love to turn to Proverbs 22:6 and say, “Don’t worry, you’ve trained them right, eventually, they’ll be back to the Lord.” But, is that true? You know as well as I do that many never return. Or they’ll use this verse to tell parents, “You obviously did not “train up your child in the way he should go” otherwise you wouldn’t have this problem today. Gee, thanks…that helps…I won’t be sharing my problems with anyone anymore.
Is it a secret formula where some parents figure it out and others don’t? Is there some way to guarantee your child will never rebel? Over the next few weeks, I hope to share some reasons I believe church kids rebel.
Reason #1: They’ve Never Been Regenerated (Click here to view)
Reason #2: Legalism in the Home and/or Church
Last week I wrote about the #1 reason for church kids to rebel was because they’ve never been regenerated. Technically, if they don’t have a new heart, they’ve really never rebelled. Instead, they’re acting out of their own sinful nature and doing what’s actually normal for them. It may be seen as rebellion because they’ve “always been good kids” but, on the inside, they were full of “dead man’s bones.”
Be a Good Boy!
Think about your two-year old, whom you are diligently training not to be selfish, not to be hurtful, and to sit quietly. Think about what you are asking of him. “Be a good boy for mommy” has become your rallying cry! You are asking him to be loving, joyful, peaceful, kind, and patient but without the Spirit of God living in him. In other words, you are expecting that two year old to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit in his own flesh. Is that even possible? How frustrating it must be for them when they’re only acting according to their natures and want to stop being “bad” but can’t .
Teen Ministry is Easy
When I was in student ministry, I used to tell the children’s ministry guy, “You have the hardest job in the church.” To which he would reply, “No way, kids are easy! You just have to make sure they’re safe, have clean diapers, and teach bible stories while they patiently sit. The teenagers are the hardest to work with.” But, the more you think about it; these kids will obey because of the fact that adults are bigger, stronger, and authoritative. You can get them to obey essentially because they’re scared of you. You have no idea who is genuinely interested in spiritual things and who has been trained to be “good.” Teenagers on the other hand are easy. They aren’t scared of you. Once you’ve worked with teens for a while it’s pretty easy to see who’s faking it and who isn’t. If you haven’t reached their heart, you’re the first to know it.
While I will be the first to say that we need to teach our little ones what is proper and what isn’t, I would caution parents and pastors to be careful not to mistake “good” behavior, proper clothing, or biblical answers for a heart that is seeking after the things of God. Instead, they may be self-righteous or simply used to playing by the rules. As they get older, they either swing towards the legalism and self-righteousness they’re used to, or the pendulum swings from legalism to licentiousness.
As you read back through the gospels, is there any group of people whom Jesus is harsher on than the legalistic Pharisees? I challenge you to find one. When Jesus rebuked them, He ridiculed the good looking outside due to the rottenness that characterized their sinful hearts on the inside.
It is EASY to get your child to stop doing bad behavior! That’s what our government uses the prison system for. It is a temporary (sometimes permanent) “time out” for those in our society that can’t play by the rules. This method of discipline in our homes has us confining them to their rooms, taking away their stuff, and keeping them away from certain people. But, if their hearts are not repentant, this is a temporary fix at best. As soon as you put your guard down, it will be like letting a balloon loose without tying the end. I am not saying that you shouldn’t do that as parents! I am saying that there has to be more than that if you’re going to reach their hearts!
Matt22:37-39
New Member
Dig Up The Root
Instead of being so quick to fix the outside, as parents, we need to do a better job of understanding the heart behind the action. Legalism says, “If you’re good enough on the outside, you will be pleasing to God (and mommy).” The problem with that thinking is bigger than you may think! The heart of the problem is always the heart! Jesus said, “Out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, and slanders” (Matthew 15:18). The legalistic Pharisees were more concerned about how the disciples were washing their hands because of fear of being “defiled” when the real problem was their sinful hearts.
James says our fights, quarrels, and lusts aren’t because we have some kind of psychopathic “problem” on the outside, it’s a problem of the heart on the inside. In counseling, one of my goals is to discover the root of the counselee’s problem. It’s rarely what they think it is (my husband’s a jerk, my wife nags, my child is on drugs) as they are just focusing on the fruit rather than the root. It’s easy to focus on the fruit but, if all we do is remove fruit, it will grow back again in due time. When we only focus on the fruit of our kid’s lives, we can easily miss getting to the root of the problem and rebellion is inevitable.
There is nothing more frustrating than legalism! When Paul spoke of the character of those living in the last days he said men will be “holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power” (2 Timothy 3:5). If all our kids see of Christianity is a list of rules without relationship, why not turn them into Buddhists?
One of my primary things I teach in our parenting class is not to ask your children, “Why did you do that?” What a dumb question! Your kids will say, “But, he…” or “I don’t know.” He’s either going to blame someone else or he’s going to claim ignorance. If they were old enough and smart-alecky enough they would say, “Because I have a sinful heart bent towards sin and I struggle with this fleshly outside.” The heart is always the problem! Instead, ask the question, “What did you do wrong?” By asking this, it makes them understand and confess sin. They’ll still say, “But he hit me first” and you just ask, “What did YOU do wrong?” This teaches them to acknowledge their sin.
What if they say, “I don’t know?” Then, you can look at your own legalistic heart and see if what you are requiring of them is a biblical mandate or something that would make daddy look good. Seriously, this gives you the chance to take your child through the scriptures and share what God has to say about it.
Better to Err on the Side of Grace
I have heard countless times, “It’s better to err on the side of conservatism.” I’ve heard this so many times I almost believe it. This phrase is used any time someone wants to put up another legalistic rule. Did Jesus err on the side of conservatism? It seemed to me that Jesus erred on the side of grace. The woman at the well was offered grace and was the first evangelist but she wouldn’t be qualified in most of our churches to do much more than sit in the back and take notes.
The woman caught in adultery was nearly stoned to death by a legalistic mob and Jesus extended grace. How many of our churches would have John the Baptist on their staff? Yet, Jesus said he is the greatest who has been born among women. I can just imagine what that weekly luncheon would look like when it was John’s turn to pick where they were going for lunch.
Far too many of our churches have unknowingly sent out this message, “We love you! We love you! We love you! As long as you dress like us, listen to the same music as us, and stop hanging around with “those” other people, then we will love you unconditionally!
If You’re the Rebel
Maybe you’re reading this today and you’re the one that’s rebelled against the legalistic church. You’re a believer in Jesus Christ but have been turned off by organized religion. Let me be the first to congratulate you! Well done, my friend! But, don’t rebel into licentiousness, rebel into grace. Don’t rebel and speak against the body of Christ (would you want someone talking bad about your bride?), rebel against the same legalism that Jesus hated. If you’re going to rebel, rebel into grace. Embrace the bride of Christ as He does and find a group of believers who you can mutually build into.
Instead of being so quick to fix the outside, as parents, we need to do a better job of understanding the heart behind the action. Legalism says, “If you’re good enough on the outside, you will be pleasing to God (and mommy).” The problem with that thinking is bigger than you may think! The heart of the problem is always the heart! Jesus said, “Out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, and slanders” (Matthew 15:18). The legalistic Pharisees were more concerned about how the disciples were washing their hands because of fear of being “defiled” when the real problem was their sinful hearts.
James says our fights, quarrels, and lusts aren’t because we have some kind of psychopathic “problem” on the outside, it’s a problem of the heart on the inside. In counseling, one of my goals is to discover the root of the counselee’s problem. It’s rarely what they think it is (my husband’s a jerk, my wife nags, my child is on drugs) as they are just focusing on the fruit rather than the root. It’s easy to focus on the fruit but, if all we do is remove fruit, it will grow back again in due time. When we only focus on the fruit of our kid’s lives, we can easily miss getting to the root of the problem and rebellion is inevitable.
There is nothing more frustrating than legalism! When Paul spoke of the character of those living in the last days he said men will be “holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power” (2 Timothy 3:5). If all our kids see of Christianity is a list of rules without relationship, why not turn them into Buddhists?
One of my primary things I teach in our parenting class is not to ask your children, “Why did you do that?” What a dumb question! Your kids will say, “But, he…” or “I don’t know.” He’s either going to blame someone else or he’s going to claim ignorance. If they were old enough and smart-alecky enough they would say, “Because I have a sinful heart bent towards sin and I struggle with this fleshly outside.” The heart is always the problem! Instead, ask the question, “What did you do wrong?” By asking this, it makes them understand and confess sin. They’ll still say, “But he hit me first” and you just ask, “What did YOU do wrong?” This teaches them to acknowledge their sin.
What if they say, “I don’t know?” Then, you can look at your own legalistic heart and see if what you are requiring of them is a biblical mandate or something that would make daddy look good. Seriously, this gives you the chance to take your child through the scriptures and share what God has to say about it.
Better to Err on the Side of Grace
I have heard countless times, “It’s better to err on the side of conservatism.” I’ve heard this so many times I almost believe it. This phrase is used any time someone wants to put up another legalistic rule. Did Jesus err on the side of conservatism? It seemed to me that Jesus erred on the side of grace. The woman at the well was offered grace and was the first evangelist but she wouldn’t be qualified in most of our churches to do much more than sit in the back and take notes.
The woman caught in adultery was nearly stoned to death by a legalistic mob and Jesus extended grace. How many of our churches would have John the Baptist on their staff? Yet, Jesus said he is the greatest who has been born among women. I can just imagine what that weekly luncheon would look like when it was John’s turn to pick where they were going for lunch.
Far too many of our churches have unknowingly sent out this message, “We love you! We love you! We love you! As long as you dress like us, listen to the same music as us, and stop hanging around with “those” other people, then we will love you unconditionally!
If You’re the Rebel
Maybe you’re reading this today and you’re the one that’s rebelled against the legalistic church. You’re a believer in Jesus Christ but have been turned off by organized religion. Let me be the first to congratulate you! Well done, my friend! But, don’t rebel into licentiousness, rebel into grace. Don’t rebel and speak against the body of Christ (would you want someone talking bad about your bride?), rebel against the same legalism that Jesus hated. If you’re going to rebel, rebel into grace. Embrace the bride of Christ as He does and find a group of believers who you can mutually build into.
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So his daughter refusing the Gospel is rebellion but your son's is not?
I believe those God has predestined He will justify, sanctify, and ultimately glorify.
But I'm sure glad it is Jesus, not some on this board, that judges if I am far enough down the road right this very minute.
One indeed can have a saved child still, as some churches put it, "in bondage to sin and cannot free themselves."
I know those into Lordship Salvation believe we have to get sanctified to get justified but that is just plain backwards.
Salvation is free for believing, no strings attached.
Now, God in His mercy may severely chastise the sinning believer, even unto death.
Some of ya'll would have kicked Peter out of the First Baptist Church of Jerusalem rather than wait for him to turn back to the Lord.
Or kicked Jesus Himself out of it for turning water into wine (at least without paying the proper taxes and registration.)
God looks on the motives and intents of the heart while we can only look on outward appearances.
And remember the Pharisee did not go home justified, but the publican did.
Let's give God time to work.
But I'm sure glad it is Jesus, not some on this board, that judges if I am far enough down the road right this very minute.
One indeed can have a saved child still, as some churches put it, "in bondage to sin and cannot free themselves."
I know those into Lordship Salvation believe we have to get sanctified to get justified but that is just plain backwards.
Salvation is free for believing, no strings attached.
Now, God in His mercy may severely chastise the sinning believer, even unto death.
Some of ya'll would have kicked Peter out of the First Baptist Church of Jerusalem rather than wait for him to turn back to the Lord.
Or kicked Jesus Himself out of it for turning water into wine (at least without paying the proper taxes and registration.)
God looks on the motives and intents of the heart while we can only look on outward appearances.
And remember the Pharisee did not go home justified, but the publican did.
Let's give God time to work.
Matt22:37-39
New Member
Again you do not make sense...but you do make things up...I never said anything like that???...is there a way to block you, cause you are clearly ignorant!
Matt22:37-39
New Member
Matt22:37-39
New Member
BTW ANN, I have read many messages to you and they too see your arrogance and ignorance and your being mean spirited....you should reread some of them and see how UNGODLY you are....some times I wonder who really runs these boards?...they actually sound very mad about Christianity and the church....cause they aint giving CHRIST a very good name, in fact way more harm than good.
GAL 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
GAL 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
No, not ignorant but instead Biblical. It seems you judge RD for his daughter yet you are in the same place as he is - both of you with children who are not walking with the Lord. Doesn't matter that his daughter is a lesbian and your son is a "contributing member of society" because bottom line, there is one thing that matters. Where do they stand in front of the cross of Christ - saved or unsaved. If unsaved, I would certainly hope it would happen despite our constant prayers and our putting them on the alter of Christ. That it would happen despite our teaching and our love for them. But honestly to post on a board with an attitude that seems like it's "no big deal" if they are saved or night is frightening to me.
regardless of whatever lifestyle, sin one gets into before salvation, we are ALL in the same boat, ALL heading to hell, and Jesus needs to save BOTh a lesbian and a person with legitmate problems!
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