How to defeat the ME heresy

[J. Jump]

Here's what Scripture says:

7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? 8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

And here's what Skypair says:

(And BTW -- what David said was that the KNOWLEDGE of God is everywhere, even in sheol -- not His presence.)

Which are we to believe? Scripture or Skypair?

Not a mention of the "knowledge of God" in that passage. The only reference to "knowledge" in that passage is David saying that God knows more than he does and that he can never know as much as God does.

 

[skypair]

So skypair since God didn't deliver us out of Egypt it's okay for us to serve other gods?

No, since God didn't deliver us out of Egypt, the Mosaic law doesn't apply. Have you not heard that we are uder the "law of the Spirit?" All the former law is encompassed in these 2: Love God with all your heart and the second is like unto it -- love thy neighbor as thyself.

Do we believe in "another God?" No. But try to convince a Jew of that while showing them the first commandment. It's like you --- they are blind to that US part and to Christ so you must be serving other gods to them, right?

skypair

 

[J. Jump]

No

I didn't think so. So my statement still stands true. We can't do any of those things without being held accountable.

So while we are "free" in Christ we are not "free" to act in any ole way we want without consequences.

My point was that people try to say we are legalists and just another way to try and "prove" we are incorrect. So I always ask if it is okay if we do any of those things. And the answer is always no, so I'm not sure how we are legalists.

God gives us rules to live by. If we live by them there are consequences. And if we choose not to live by them there are consequences. But the choice is ours to make.

 

[skypair]

Here's what Scripture says:

7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? 8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

And here's what Skypair says:

(And BTW -- what David said was that the KNOWLEDGE of God is everywhere, even in sheol -- not His presence.)

Not a mention of the "knowledge of God" in that passage. The only reference to "knowledge" in that passage is David saying that God knows more than he does and that he can never know as much as God does.

Instead of being dishonest with me, please try to get the sense of the CONTEXT before putting your foot in your mouth, JJ. :laugh:

Psa 139:6 -- "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? ..." It is the "knowledge" of God that David can't get away from. And God's "knowledge," as we learn from the NT, is His mind -- His wisdom.

The fact is, JJ, EVERY human spirit has knowledge of God (Ecc 3:11, Rom 1:19-20) and that will be part of the excruciating torment of hell -- they knew but didn't respond. That is what "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is all about. Even the lost will be aware of/have the knowledge of God.

skypair

 

[J. Jump]

Skypair the only person that has inserted their foot in the mouth is you. The text simply doesn't back up your claim.

Nowhere in that text or context for that matter is the knowledge of God being everywhere talked about.

The text says David can not escape His "presence" exactly the opposite of what you said.

The text says His presence is EVERYWHERE not the knowledge of Him.

Now we can either believe what the text says or we can ignore it and make up our own theology despite what the text says.

And the text again says that David can not escape His presence. And since Scripture is absolutely 100% perfect I believe it is His presence that is inescapable.

Again the knowledge that is being talked about is what God knows. David says he can't know as much as God. So contextually you are out in left field.

And there was nothing dishonest in what I said.

 

[skypair]

I didn't think so. So my statement still stands true. We can't do any of those things without being held accountable.

So while we are "free" in Christ we are not "free" to act in any ole way we want without consequences.

My point was that people try to say we are legalists and just another way to try and "prove" we are incorrect.

If you are subject to any of the law, you are under ALL of it was Paul's contention. So do you offer blood sacrifices? Sabbath restrictions? Were you saved by the law or the Spirit?

So I always ask if it is okay if we do any of those things. And the answer is always no, so I'm not sure how we are legalists.

Legalist because you are imposing laws into the salvation equation. Do you not see that? In your case, you interpose them to condemn people's spirits to hell while their souls are justified. But scripture clearly says "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Rom 4:5

Read Galations, JJ. What do you make of Paul's comments on the legalists and Judaizers there? How are they any different than you?

And wouldn't be a poor witness of Christ to obey all the Mosaic law? Though I guess it would correspond to your OT gospel, it would be as if He hadn't come and fulfilled all the scriptures -- all the patterns and pictures -- already.

God gives us rules to live by.

Which would you violate if you lived "in the Spirit?"

If we live by them there are consequences.

And those consequences are here on earth, JJ. The Bible NEVER says otherwise so far as NT believers. Now again, it is true that OT saints ALL went to sheol like you seem to think the "bad Christians" go. But believers now are "chastised" and even receive God's "wrath" if the sin --- but they receive it in THIS LIFE!

skypair

 

[npetreley]

I found an even better way to defeat the ME heresy: another board that is uninfected by ME heresy, and is never likely to be so infected because its owner(s) won't allow it.

 

[skypair]

The text says David can not escape His "presence" exactly the opposite of what you said.

What is His presence in the text? It is God's spirit -- His knowledge. In the NT, we reaize that the Holy Spirit is the "mind of God/Christ." In the OT, He was God's "wisdom" (Prov 8:22-36).

If we retain the knowledge of God in our mind, that is His presence in us (usually we sense Him primarily in our conscience/soul).

Now, if that "presence" actually "quickens" us, that is the "filling" of the HS.

If He quickens us to salvation, then He "indwells" us. These are key biblical concepts for you to master, JJ.

The text says His presence is EVERYWHERE not the knowledge of Him.

Now we can either believe what the text says or we can ignore it and make up our own theology despite what the text says.

Or we can discover what the text means in concrete terms rather than say that God lives in hell, right?

And the text again says that David can not escape His presence. And since Scripture is absolutely 100% perfect I believe it is His presence that is inescapable.

Oh? Then how is it David prayed, "Take not Thy Spirit from me?" He prayed that because it was possible for God's Holy Spirit to leave him rather than be "with" him always. See, in the OT, they weren't indwelt by Him.

Again the knowledge that is being talked about is what God knows. David says he can't know as much as God. So contextually you are out in left field.

Of course David cannot attain to it. We have a chance to but David had not the indwelling of the Spirit nor the full counsel of God (NT). But he did have the knowledge of God, right?

And there was nothing dishonest in what I said.

I realize that now. You didn't realize the truth within the context that you offered me.

 

[npetreley]

I can't believe you guys are missing the obvious. If you're going to argue that this text says you can't flee from God's presence by going to hell, then you'll have to forget about calling spiritual death "separation from God", since you just (cough) "proved" that it is impossible to be separated from God.

Next.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

I think we all agree there is such place as purgatory. I think I recall a scripture saying"to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", I think it was Paul who wrote that.I don't see how that makes any allowance for a great deal of time to pass.

Anyhow it is nice to see you all playing together in a little nicer tones.:godisgood:

 

[Debby in Philly]

What's an ME? Methodist Episcopal?

 

[Rufus_1611]

What's an ME? Methodist Episcopal?

Millenial exclusionist.

 

[npetreley]

I think we all agree there is such place as purgatory.

Run that one by me again?

 

[Plain Old Bill]

OK let me say it this way." I find it difficult to fit purgatory into baptist doctrine or theology.":BangHead: I don't see myself as a protestant or a reformed person, I see myself as a baptist, we are'nt protesting anything, we have been right all along.:thumbs:

 

[Hope of Glory]

How about this one? He didn't bring US out of the land of Egypt.

What is Egypt a picture or type of?

 

[npetreley]

OK let me say it this way." I find it difficult to fit purgatory into baptist doctrine or theology.":BangHead: I don't see myself as a protestant or a reformed person, I see myself as a baptist, we are'nt protesting anything, we have been right all along.:thumbs:

I'm lost. Did you mean to say there's NO such place as purgatory?

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

What is Egypt a picture or type of?

A country located in the north East section of the African Continent,

 

[Hope of Glory]

If you are subject to any of the law, you are under ALL of it was Paul's contention.

So, are you saying that we don't need to love the Lord and we don't need to love our neighbors?

After all, that's the law.

 

[James_Newman]

I found an even better way to defeat the ME heresy: another board that is uninfected by ME heresy, and is never likely to be so infected because its owner(s) won't allow it.

Acts 4:17-18
17 But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name.
18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.

 

[Hope of Glory]

A country located in the north East section of the African Continent,

That's what it is geographically, but what is it a picture or type of?

Better yet, what is the Promised Land a type of?

How about the Land Flowing with Milk and Honey?