How to defeat the ME heresy

[npetreley]

So, if I get scripture that says "sin" you will accept it as one sin?

It depends on the context and the tense. In some cases it's a sin. In other cases, it means to sin continually. I can't give you examples of which is which without the Greek in front of me.

In practical terms, it makes no difference. We should flee sin, period. But the difference is important if you want to really understand what the author is saying in one place or another.

 

[Brother Bob]

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Here is what Apostle Paul taught.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

buffet does mean to be hit. but thorn means a point or prick, messenger means an angel. I still believe it was satan trying to get Paul to sin or weaken his faith someway. He got beatings before and he called them beatings.

In this case he also called it a beating. He used the word 'buffet' which means 'to rap with the fist.' He did not use the word 'tempt' or 'decieve'. Had he used either of those words, I would say it was temptation. But he did not. He used 'buffet,' 'to rap with the fist.' Physical, not spiritual.

 

[rbell]

Welcome back to the asylum, SFIC!!

 

[Brother Bob]

the thorn in the flesh was a physical person.

Had Paul said 'a thorn in the flesh to buffet me, then one might misconstrue it to mean a physical malady. But it clarified what that thorn was... a messenger of satan.

You say the messenger was an angel? Ok, let's go with that for a minute. Angels in the Bible always made their presence known to man in the form of, guess what??? ... human beings.

This angel (messenger) was a physical being who was sent to buffet (beat with the fist) Paul.
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I don't believe that is what it is saying. a messenger from Satan can also be and evil spirit. the scripture says to try the spirits to see if they are of God. The thorn in the flesh, could of been referring to that message that was continually disturbing Paul. A fist to the side of the head I believe would of said a beating. If the message would not leave him alone, I guess it did feel like being beaten all the time, but I think it would of said so. I am sure to Paul if felt like a beating to be continuously buffeted by the messenger of Satan.

I still have not heard the first person tell me all these sins Paul was committing while teaching others not to sin?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Welcome back to the asylum, SFIC!!

Thanx, rbell.

Now, can we play nicely?

 

[Brother Bob]

Buffet me I believe is a figure of speech. Paul was the leader of the churches, do you think they would of just stood around and let Paul take a beating all the time. If so, you can forget about Paul sinning, he was too busy trying to keep from get beaten up. :laugh:

 

[npetreley]

he was too busy trying to keep from get beaten up. :laugh:

Are you saying Paul was a nerd?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If the messenger of satan was sent to do anything other than rough Paul up through physical force, Paul would have said so.

The fact is, this messenger beat Paul physically.

The churches would not have stepped in if God had told them to stay out of it... which is possible.

Not everything that was done in Bible times was written down in Scripture.

But Paul's physical beating from this messenger sure was.

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
he was too busy trying to keep from get beaten up. :laugh:

Are you saying Paul was a nerd?

I am saying when did Paul get a chance to do all this writing and preaching. This thing was in his flesh, I mean the poor man, was taking a beating all the time. I suspect it was a figure of speech, don't you?

If the messenger of satan was sent to do anything other than rough Paul up through physical force, Paul would have said so.

The fact is, this messenger beat Paul physically.

The churches would not have stepped in if God had told them to stay out of it... which is possible.

Not everything that was done in Bible times was written down in Scripture.

But Paul's physical beating from this messenger sure was.
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Poor Paul, do you think he will continue to get beatings in the thousand year reign too? I always thought Paul was a man of statue. I find it hard seeing him as a little whimp, getting his head beat all the time. No wonder he said "in my flesh dwelleth no good thing", that was where the thorn was in the flesh.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

not a figure of speech at all.

Paul's sufferings were only in his life on earth then. In the Millenial Kingdom, the one who was tormenting him physically will still be in hell awaiting his final sentence at the Great White Throne.

 

[Amy.G]

What happened to the OP?

 

[Brother Bob]

not a figure of speech at all.

You have no way whatsoever of knowing if it was symbolic of something else Paul was speaking of.

What about the sins Paul was committing in a chief style, have you come up with any of them yet?

No evidence of a beating and no evidence of a sin, much less a chief sin!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The fact that 'buffet' in the Greek is translated 'to rap with the fist' is evidence enough of a physical beating.

The fact that Paul wrote 'the evil I would not, that I do' is not evidence of a sin? C'mon, Bob... surely you don't believe that Paul was saying that he was sinless?

You have not proved otherwise.

 

[Brother Bob]

The fact that 'buffet' in the Greek is translated 'to rap with the fist' is evidence enough of a physical beating.

The fact that Paul wrote 'the evil I would not, that I do' is not evidence of a sin? C'mon, Bob... surely you don't believe that Paul was saying that he was sinless?

You have not proved otherwise

Well, I will put it to you and me and everyone else on this board. "Don't you ever get knocked down by satan, and have to dust yourself off and get on with your Father's business".
(In my flesh dwelleth no good thing), that was where the messenger of Satan was, It can't touch the inward man who is born of God, so he attacks the outward man, the flesh.

Again, how many times in your Christian life have you been knocked down by satan and the troubles he cause you, ever time one of your loved ones die, is because of satan. Do you have to cry for the Lord to give you strength. You ever pray "Lord help me, I been in the valley so long", well have you? That was what Paul was speaking of, not a beating from a man. No one believes that, that I know of. But I get fooled a lot.

The fact that Paul wrote 'the evil I would not, that I do' is not evidence of a sin? C'mon, Bob... surely you don't believe that Paul was saying that he was sinless?

Those are words of the weakness of the flesh, that is a good reason to cry out "Lord help me'. You still have not told me "one" sin, Paul committed after he received his sight.

I told you what Paul was saying.

1. Hank Aaron until yesterday could say "I am the greatest hitter in baseball", even though its been years since he hit a ball.

2. Paul said "I am the chief of sinners, even though it had been years since he persecuted Jesus Christ and His Church.

Think about it, don't just throw it away because it don't fit your theology. The truth will set you free.

 

[npetreley]

What happened to the OP?

I don't know. It kind of turned into an "all you can argue" buffet, huh?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

How many times in your life prior to profession in Christ did you allow satan to control you? How many fights were you in in which you went after someone because you did not like what they said?

Satan can and will use people to do his work. He did in his attempt to wear Paul down.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

1. Hank Aaron until yesterday could say "I am the greatest hitter in baseball", even though its been years since he hit a ball.

Now he can no longer say I am the greatest...' present tense, He now has to say 'I was the greatest...,' past tense

2. Paul said "I am the chief of sinners, even though it had been years since he persecuted Jesus Christ and His Church. Paul was in present tense, speaking in present tense.

Think about it, don't just throw it away because it don't fit your theology. The truth will set you free.

 

[Brother Bob]

the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown

Satan "buffeted" Job also and the Lord let him do it as He told Paul, My Grace is sufficient, same with Job.

Now he can no longer say I am the greatest...' present tense, He now has to say 'I was the greatest...,' past tense

2. Paul said "I am the chief of sinners, even though it had been years since he persecuted Jesus Christ and His Church. Paul was in present tense, speaking in present tense.
(because no one had surpassed him in persecuting Jesus Christ and His Church, even though it had been years for Paul!)

1. Hank Aaron may be past tense now but he was present tense yesterday. There are many many people who can say "I am", even though the last time they did anything was years ago.

2. The reason Paul said "I am" present tense, he did not feel anyone had persecuted Jesus Christ and His Church as much as he had, nor had they surpassed him as of yet.

Read it, study it, don't just run past it.

If you don't recieve that Job was buffeted by satan, then you are denying the truth.

Satan can and will use people to do his work. He did in his attempt to wear Paul down.

I do not deny that Paul suffered at the hands of satan, he was even bitten by a snake, but that was not his thorn in the flesh.

The truth of the matter is, it don't make a hoot whether someone hit him or not. We are talking about "I am", and I explained that so a child could understand.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Satan "buffeted" Job also and the Lord let him do it as He told Paul, My Grace is sufficient, same with Job.


1. Hank Aaron may be past tense now but he was present tense yesterday. There are many many people who can say "I am", even though the last time they did anything was years ago.

2. The reason Paul said "I am" present tense, he did not feel anyone had persecuted Jesus Christ and His Church as much as he had, nor had they surpassed him as of yet.

Read it, study it, don't just run past it.

If you don't recieve that Job was buffeted by satan, then you are denying the truth.

I do not deny that Paul suffered at the hands of satan, he was even bitten by a snake, but that was not his thorn in the flesh.

The truth of the matter is, it don't make a hoot whether someone hit him or not. We are talking about "I am", and I explained that so a child could understand.

Paul had written earlier,

Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

Paul stated that the old was passed away once he came to Christ. Old things are passed away (past tense) 'of whom I am chief) present tense.

Paul was not speaking of the old man in his letter to 1 Timothy. He was speaking of the sin nature that he gave in to even after his conversion.

His past he had put behind him.