yes, we are in condemnation that is why we need salvation
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How was Christ Forsaken?
- Thread starter JonC
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"Sheol"? Yes. That's the point Christ died for us.
"Hell"? No one has experienced Hell yet. That is the "second death" absent Christ through Whom everything has it's being.
Same reason Jesus died upon the Cross, in order to bring glory to Him!
God the father could not have fellowship at that time when Jesus became the Sin Bearer, as God and sins cannot co exist with each other, as God is Holy, and nothing impure can be in His sight!
Jesus experein ced the final state of lost sinners, he faced hell while upon that Cross....
Jesus himself shows He was forsaken
Mar 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsakenme?
egkataleipō separation
how does that being glory except in redeeming sinners
that is right
Of course it is.....but I just had another thought....that's three today!
The first Narnia movie is on (C.S. Lewis). I have to admit that I agree with much of the allegory (although I wouldn't take theological instruction from a movie).
The younger generation is increasingly drifting from the "Latin view". I wonder if the popularity of these movies have had an effect in more "Classic" ways of viewing the cross.
Christ dying?
It is in redemption- in God as just and the justifier of sinners - Christ as the "Firstborn of many brethern".
Christ suffering Hell? It would only glorify Satan by proofing God a liar.
Except YOU already gave us the definition of egkataleipō. And as YOU pointed out it can also mean "left in straits" (a situation of extreme trouble or difficulty).
There was no separation because if there were we would never have been saved. But yes, Christ was forsaken in suffering the cross and when he died into the Father's hands he committed his spirit.
How about moving towards what Pauline theology defines foe us Jesus accomplished while upon that Cross?
If it were a movie about the Atonement then they'd probably opt for Penal Substitution Theory as mythology is a popular cinematic theme now days and they could probably fit Thor into the plot without much difficulty. That's Hollywood.
If they just wanted to convey Penal Substitution Theory as an allegory they'd be too late. That was called "The Godfather". It's a good movie.
CAREFUL - I've not made that mistake at all.
The idea that God was wrathful towards Christ is contrary to what Scripture says of God. The idea that God departed from Jesus is contrary to what Scripture says of God. I never made the mistake of the Father somehow placing HIs wrath upon Jesus for something that he had done. NEVER ONCE.
I demand an apology!!!!! I demand satisfaction!!!!!
(just kidding....I don't want an apology, but you did just make up something about me that is not true). Even when I held the myth that God separated from Christ as a punishment of what we would experience at Judgment I didn't think it was for something Jesus had done....I know that isn't the case. But you are making things up rather on the spot these days.
Oh boy! You really don't understand at all! To talk about God forsaking but not abandoning is simply playing with words.
From the Oxford Concise Dictionary.
Forsake v.t. Give up, break off from, renounce, withdraw one's help, friendship or companionship from, desert, abandon.
Abandon v.t. Give up to another's control or mercy, yield one(self) completely to a passion or impulse, give up (possession, habit, game), forsake.
The two words, in the context we have them in these Bible verses, are synonyms.
Amen!
This is just arrogant nonsense, and you know it. I can put the same thing back to you with brass knobs on. Until you, @JonC, find yourself able to see the text itself, without reading into it, without "seeing something that isn't there" I don't see that a discussion is to be had. We will only talk in circles because I actually believe that you see your philosophy in the text.
So stop the infantile posturing, and either get to grips with the Bible or leave the discussion for someone more able to conduct.
This is a very important text, and tomorrow I will deal with it in a little depth (it's bed-time in Britain now). But do you see where you have altered the text (accidentally, I hope!)? The word in verse 24 is 'tree' (Gk. xulon), not 'cross' (Gk. stauros). This is hugely important to a proper understanding of what was going on at Calvary. Compare with Galatians 3:13.
You don't have to. Psalm 22:1 and the Matthew and Mark passages are quite sufficient. There on the cross, the Son was forsaken for that period by the Father, with all that being forsaken entails. Trying to find a more pejorative word does not help you avoid the obvious meaning of the texts.
I have to say, brother....for an Englishman....you don't know English real good.
I wonder why you read "separated from" as the "obvious" meaning (particularly as it isn't even the meaning among scholars who would otherwise agree with your theory). Could it be that you are able to only see what is not actually there?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I have to disagree, sir:
"But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." ( Luke 12:5 )
" And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." ( Revelation 6:8 )
" And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." ( Revelation 20:13-14 )
Hell is real, and both it and death will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
That, is the second death...when all those who were in Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire, that burns forever.
There are people experiencing Hell right now.
I do believe that Hell refers to an eternal state after Judgment. I don't believe this is the same as hades.I have to disagree, sir:
"But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." ( Luke 12:5 )
" And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." ( Revelation 6:8 )
" And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." ( Revelation 20:13-14 )
Hell is real, and both it and death will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
That, is the second death...when all those who were in Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire, that burns forever.
There are people experiencing Hell right now.
I can't source the reference, but I remember D. A. Carson giving a good explanation in his gospel series.
The idea is that no one is currently in their end states because they have not been resurrected to everlasting life or death. No one is in Heaven (that will exist as God comes to dwell with His people and this heaven and earth pass away), no one is in Hell (they are in hades....and hades and death will be cast into the lake of fire - an everlasting Hell).
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