How was Christ Forsaken?

[Aaron]

I didn't say Jesus "felt" forsaken.

Someone else did. You aren't reading all the posts.

God did not arrest Christ. God didn't convict Christ. God didn't whip Christ. God didn't crucify Christ. God didn't execute Christ. God didn't esteem Christ as stricken. God didn't consider Christ as a curse.

Man did.

The Scriptures plainly say that God bruised Him and put Him to grief. Man was merely the instrument in His hands.

He was never separated from God.

No one is separated from God. One either experiences His wrath and indignation, or His love and mercy. Where do you go from an omnipresent God? Whither shall I flee from thy presence?

 

[JonC]

Scripture teaches that it was God's will that Christ suffer at the hands of men (Acts 3), it was God's will to crush him, putting him to grief (Isaiah 53).

This is not the same as saying God punished Jesus by separating from Him on the cross. You are taking something Holy and making it historic fiction.

 

[Aaron]

Scripture teaches that it was God's will that Christ suffer at the hands of men (Acts 3), it was God's will to crush him, putting him to grief (Isaiah 53).

God is the active agent. God did the judging. God did the cursing. You think the curses of man are anything?

 

[JonC]

God is the active agent. God did the judging. God did the cursing. You think the curses of man are anything?

I don't believe anyone cursed Jesus. Instead I believe He became a curse for us.

The difference there is probably enough to demonstrate just how far apart we are on this topic.

 

[percho]

Was the Son incommunicado with the Father his God for three days and three nights?

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? - Did that verse apply to Jesus for three days and three nights? 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Cor 15:3,4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again <to what) the third day according to the scriptures:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[JonC]

Was the Son incommunicado with the Father his God for three days and three nights?

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? - Did that verse apply to Jesus for three days and three nights? 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Cor 15:3,4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again <to what) the third day according to the scriptures:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Psalm 139:8-10
If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me.

 

[percho]

Psalm 139:8-10
If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me.

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. I agree the Father the living God was there.

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, (And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?) Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Forsaken = to leave in straits, leave helpless, / not, totally abandoned, utterly forsaken / IMHO

How long was the life giving spirit of Jesus in the hands of the Father and when was Christ, Jesus, quickened with the Spirit.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give thee praise?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No one is separated from God. One either experiences His wrath and indignation, or His love and mercy. Where do you go from an omnipresent God? Whither shall I flee from thy presence?

Psalm 139:8-10
If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me.

Just so. We need to be careful here, and be aware of the omni-presence of God.
We read that the Lord departed from Saul (1 Samuel 16:14a), but that did not mean that He was not aware of Saul or had no dealings with him at all (v.14b). What it does mean is that God had no communication with him, and he received no comfort from Him (1 Samuel 28:6).

that, I believe is what our Lord experienced as He made satisfaction for our sins before God.

Now according to A.W. Pink (The Satisfaction of Christ), Christ's sufferings were:
1, A Federal Work.
2. A Substitutionary Work.
3. A Penal Work.
4. A Sacrificial Work.

I want just to look very briefly at the first two of these.
A Federal Work. Christ as the second Adam came to save His people; those whom the Father had given Him (John 6:39 etc.). There is a legal, covenantal union between Christ and His people. 'Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made' Galatians 3:16), but the Seed is first of all Christ, and then those who are in Him (1 Corinthians 15:22; Galatians 3:7). So what Christ has done, we have done; what has happened to Christ has happened to us. 'I have been crucified with Christ' (Galatians 2:20); 'If [or 'since'] then, you were raised with Christ.......' (Colossians 3:1; c.f. Ephesians 2:5-6).

A Substitutionary Work. Christ was the Surety for His people because He was their Substitute. Their debts became His debts; their sins, His sins; and their punishment, His punishment. Are His people due by divine justice eternal separation from God? Then Christ their Substitute is due the same by the same justice. 'The chastisement for our peace was upon Him.'

Eliphaz the Temanite asked, "Whoever perished being innocent? Or where were the righteous cut off?" (Job 4:7). We may confidently answer, no one and nowhere! Christ was personally innocent and righteous, but as our Covenant Head and as our Substitute, He was legally guilty and suffered the just punishment for all the ones for whom He was Surety.

Pink also says that Christ's sacrifice was
a. A Ransoming One.
b. A Priestly One.
c. A Propitiatory One.
d. An Expiatory One.

It might make our discussions more fruitful and less acrimonious if we use these headings.

 

[Aaron]

I don't believe anyone cursed Jesus. Instead I believe He became a curse for us.

The difference there is probably enough to demonstrate just how far apart we are on this topic.

Lol. Who is the lawgiver?

 

[JonC]

Lol. Who is the lawgiver?

We are not talking about transgressing the law. We are talking about your idea that God cursed Jesus versus my idea that He became a curse for us.

That said, this is another difference. Where you present redemption as being accomplished through the law - through Christ suffering our consequences under the law - I believe it a manifestation of God's righteousness apart from the law. These are two very different views (we look at God being just while justifying sinners differently).
.

 

[JonC]

Just so. We need to be careful here, and be aware of the omni-presence of God.
We read that the Lord departed from Saul (1 Samuel 16:14a), but that did not mean that He was not aware of Saul or had no dealings with him at all (v.14b). What it does mean is that God had no communication with him, and he received no comfort from Him (1 Samuel 28:6).

that, I believe is what our Lord experienced as He made satisfaction for our sins before God.

Now according to A.W. Pink (The Satisfaction of Christ), Christ's sufferings were:
1, A Federal Work.
2. A Substitutionary Work.
3. A Penal Work.
4. A Sacrificial Work.

I want just to look very briefly at the first two of these.
A Federal Work. Christ as the second Adam came to save His people; those whom the Father had given Him (John 6:39 etc.). There is a legal, covenantal union between Christ and His people. 'Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made' Galatians 3:16), but the Seed is first of all Christ, and then those who are in Him (1 Corinthians 15:22; Galatians 3:7). So what Christ has done, we have done; what has happened to Christ has happened to us. 'I have been crucified with Christ' (Galatians 2:20); 'If [or 'since'] then, you were raised with Christ.......' (Colossians 3:1; c.f. Ephesians 2:5-6).

A Substitutionary Work. Christ was the Surety for His people because He was their Substitute. Their debts became His debts; their sins, His sins; and their punishment, His punishment. Are His people due by divine justice eternal separation from God? Then Christ their Substitute is due the same by the same justice. 'The chastisement for our peace was upon Him.'

Eliphaz the Temanite asked, "Whoever perished being innocent? Or where were the righteous cut off?" (Job 4:7). We may confidently answer, no one and nowhere! Christ was personally innocent and righteous, but as our Covenant Head and as our Substitute, He was legally guilty and suffered the just punishment for all the ones for whom He was Surety.

Pink also says that Christ's sacrifice was
a. A Ransoming One.
b. A Priestly One.
c. A Propitiatory One.
d. An Expiatory One.

It might make our discussions more fruitful and less acrimonious if we use these headings.

That's an awful lot of philosophical notions attached to each of those passages. No wonder it took so long for those "truths" to be fleshed out.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

That's an awful lot of philosophical notions attached to each of those passages. No wonder it took so long for those "truths" to be fleshed out.

 

[JonC]

I couldn't resist.

I do know the ideas you are presenting (and the reasons behind them). I don't disagree with the logic.

If Penal Substitution Theory is true then Jesus had to experience a separation from God as the lost will be cast away. Christ suffers the same punishment (although not the same duration).

Those who reject this separation while affirming Penal Substitution Theory are, in a way, holding to a type of satisfaction theory (because Christ is not suffering "our" punishment).

I don't disagree with your logic, although I do reject the philosophy behind the theory.

 

[loDebar]

Christ dying?
It is in redemption- in God as just and the justifier of sinners - Christ as the "Firstborn of many brethern".

Christ suffering Hell? It would only glorify Satan by proofing God a liar.

God on the cross, suffering separation from God is spiritual death and as a man dying is physical death

The was suffering to live and die as a man but incurred the sin of the world to bear it on the cross.

 

[The Archangel]

No, we don't believe exactly the same (although at one time we did). Your theory here relies on humanistic philosophy as a lens to view all of Scripture.

Yet you ignore your own _________istic philosophy and lens(es). Hmmmmm..

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

God Did not Forsake His Son...

Yet Jesus pleads with the Father to "remove this cup." The cup is an unmistakable symbol of God's judgment. It was God who did this to Christ. Believers are accepted because of His condemnation.

The Archangel

 

[JonC]

Yet you ignore your own _________istic philosophy and lens(es). Hmmmmm..

The Archangel

Then point it out. Unsubstantiated claims are meaningless, brother. I have provided the humanistic philosophy I believe shackles you to error, seeing in Scripture what is not there. You have thus far (on other threads) failed to even attempt to justify the judicial system you impose on God's Word, much less prove the philosophy itself correct.

I have another thread discussing my beliefs on the Atonement. You are also more than welcome to challenge my views there as well.

 

[JonC]

God on the cross, suffering separation from God is spiritual death and as a man dying is physical death

The was suffering to live and die as a man but incurred the sin of the world to bear it on the cross.

I understand what you are saying. I just disagree.

 

[JonC]

Yet Jesus pleads with the Father to "remove this cup." The cup is an unmistakable symbol of God's judgment. It was God who did this to Christ. Believers are accepted because of His condemnation.

The Archangel

Why? Through Scripture "the cup" has represented both God's wrath and His blessings. It has represented God's will in what was to come, it a situation.

Why should we believe "the cup" here represents God's wrath rather than God's will? Because you want it to be the cup of God's wrath?

This is, BTW, one example of philosophy influencing theology.

(I bet you hate that "full my cup" song )

 

[loDebar]

I understand what you are saying. I just disagree.

that is fine,,

why did you not respond about the Ga Bulldogs?