How Wicked Were the People of Noah's Day? And Why No Detail?

[OfLivingWaters]

"Because he obviously..." is your main argument here. If it were so obvious, it would not be so controversial. Obviously.



But the burden of proof is on you, my friend. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. You have to do better than saying, "Because he obviously...".



I did read about this in my brief online research before commenting. Similar arguments have been made about the Dead Sea Scrolls. And maybe other lost scrolls or tablets will turn up some time in the future. Having been lost to history doesn't prove anything in and of itself, though.




I never claimed there was anti-Semitism in the book of Enoch. That is a straw man. Go back and read what I said.



There you go with the word "obviously" again. Nope, I'm not Catholic. Assumptions, assumptions. Next time you have the impulse to type "obviously", try to resist it. It will improve your arguments.



Wow. Just wow.



You're hanging a lot just on interpretation.



So you do believe women are to blame for making the angels fall. Do you also think women should cover their heads so it doesn't happen again?

Jesus was not sexist, and He was the gold standard, not Enoch.

The teaching is to love your neighbor, and there is no fine print saying it is good to hate your neighbor if she is a woman. Just remember that.



You know all about angels and everything they can do, huh?



And you seem to think all kinds of supernatural beings besides God have the creative power of God.



Speculation.



I might have been thinking of Jack Parsons and Ron Hubbard, not Crowley. They got their ideas from somewhere. As you have noted, there is nothing new under the sun. But that was kind of my point. This type of Enoch and similar material can be inspirational to occultists. It is not poles apart.




This is the Chariots of the Gods type of argument. And Graham Hancock, and Ancient Aliens. Enoch is not even needed for this. Do you follow all those guys and believe all their books equal to the Bible, too?




I don't hang my faith on prophecy, because so many end times prophets have been wrong so many times before.
Could it be that people just repeat the same things when they are not being stopped by Judeo Christian belief and culture? After all we can be clever without being wise. It's human nature.

The Pope is irrelevant. I didn't know he joked about baptizing aliens.

I agree the so-called aliens are probably demons, and many alien authors compare them to the fairies of the past or speculate that they could be interdimensional beings. In book stores, alien books are in the New Age section. I think they are widely perceived as being in that category, and the Ancient Alien guys more or less came out of the closet as Theosophists on their show after a while. I don't need to read the book of Enoch to know any of this.

I did share proof you just do not like what was shared. And you have nothing as to proof in rebuttals against Enoch's writings "MY FRIEND". I backed with scripture and verses from Enoch. What have you presented to dismantle? NOTHING, except your opinion by quoting me and bringing NO facts against me.

As I said everything you say is just personal opinion. You do not have to believe aliens are demons. You do not have to believe giants walked the earth, nor do you have to believe angels went in unto woman. It is your OP, you were the one curious about it all. Maybe you should have done more study concerning your OP. I did not tell you to hang your faith on prophecy you inquired about what went on in the OT and the how the Book of Enoch is relevant, then when someone shares what was stated in a book which predates all other scripture you say it is irrelevant ,yet it speaks of the very things you were inquiring about, HELLO!
Maybe you were disingenuous concerning your motives, it sounds to me you just wanted to attack a person and a whole denomination with unfounded opinions. Scripture has been presented which does support these writings to a degree.-in that, with what is presented has been supported by scripture, you NOTHING. So, at the present time the scales are tipped heavily in my favor and defense of the book of Enoch. Think what you want -as to comparing a new name 'Extraterrestrial" to Watchers old school. That too is just your opinion , if you believe in aliens or not- your view. The fact is there are fallen angels and they are deceptive and they can reinvent themselves before man, to convince man they are something else to remain relevant .
The bottom line is I present two sides of an argument , you have not, nor have you with scripture given any concrete proof against the writings of Enoch. With that said go back and read what was posted, my rebuttals against you and others are there.
Do not know what you are ranting about, remember you asked!

 

[OfLivingWaters]

Were people more wicked before the Holy Spirit was left behind on Earth by Jesus? Is this why people were able to be wicked enough in the days of Noah to be wiped out by a flood? Why does the Bible provide so little detail about how wicked the ways of the people were? Is there any historical validity in Talmudic historical accounts? The Talmud is said to claim that in the days of Noah, people were so completely pansexual that they were even marrying animals. Is it possible people were even genetically engineering human DNA to mix it with animal DNA? Are we not told about it because we are supposed to be wise concerning good but simple concerning evil? Or maybe it is just a case of lost history but Rabbis still know it?

Another thing I do not use the Talmud, the Talmud contains information which Jews have picked and chosen from scripture what they wanted and mix it with esoteric practices and only Rabbinical traditions. As for pansexual, and going in unto animals , if a book which predated all the scriptures OT and NT speaks of the very things which go on today THAT YOU ARE INQUIRING ABOUT is it fair to say there must be some relevance to the work ? I don't know, maybe reason and deduction? Now, if you are going to say this does not go on today, what is your question then? Unless someone lives in a bubble we know it goes on because elites tout it. Do they engineer DNA today? Does Enoch say they did then,? YES and this BEFORE ANY TALMUD WAS FORMED OR ANY OTHER SCRIPTURE WRITTEN. Again, scales tipped heavily in my favor simply by commonsense. There is nothing new under the sun. But that which already HAPPENED we only know because of Enoch no one else!

You loose because your own questions prove the truth of Enoch who spoke it before you or anyone.
Preceding Generations Forgotten Ecclesiastes 1:8-10
…8All things are wearisome; Man is not able to tell it. The eye is not satisfied with seeing, Nor is the ear filled with hearing. 9That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun. 10Is there anything of which one might say, "See this, it is new "? Already it has existed for ages Which were before us.…

Whether one agrees with me fully or not, the argument is won by me because you can not question the fact that all- has already been done and Enoch is the one who bore witness to it. God Bless!

 

[I Love An Atheist]

I did share proof you just do not like what was shared. And you have nothing as to proof in rebuttals against Enoch's writings "MY FRIEND". I backed with scripture and verses from Enoch. What have you presented to dismantle? NOTHING, except your opinion by quoting me and bringing NO facts against me.

Yes, you did share proof, so thank you. It doesn't mean I have to embrace it.

It's not quite true I presented nothing but my opinion. I presented logic.

I don't need to bring facts against your claims. You need to bring facts in support of your claims.

As I said everything you say is just personal opinion. You do not have to believe aliens are demons.

You are not even paying attention to what I have replied. I stated clearly I think so-called aliens are probably demons.

You do not have to believe giants walked the earth, nor do you have to believe angels went in unto woman.

Of course I don't have to believe it. Do you need others to believe it, too, so that you can feel secure in your own beliefs?

It is your OP, you were the one curious about it all. Maybe you should have done more study concerning your OP.

I didn't know there was anything to study. Now I know. The funny thing is, nothing you have said to me is new to me, although I have never read your source.

I did not tell you to hang your faith on prophecy you inquired about what went on in the OT and the how the Book of Enoch is relevant, then when someone shares what was stated in a book which predates all other scripture you say it is irrelevant ,yet it speaks of the very things you were inquiring about, HELLO!

You don't need to keep yelling in all caps. Are you upset?

The only thing I said was irrelevant was the Pope. Again you are playing fast and loose with my words.

I think the book of Enoch is relevant. I just don't think it has convincing proof. Those are two different issues.

Maybe you were disingenuous concerning your motives, it sounds to me you just wanted to attack a person and a whole denomination with unfounded opinions.

Attack a whole denomination? What denomination would that be? Do you belong to a denomination that uses the book of Enoch for theology?

Scripture has been presented which does support these writings to a degree.-in that, with what is presented has been supported by scripture, you NOTHING.

You're yelling again. You seem easily upset about disagreement on this topic. Do you feel that insecure about your belief in it that you need others to be equally convinced to feel confident?

So, at the present time the scales are tipped heavily in my favor and defense of the book of Enoch.

I'm sorry, but that is just analysis by assertion. Who do you think you're fooling? Apparently you're poorly fooling yourself, otherwise you would not be assiduously avoiding direct replies to the two other people in this thread who have presented many examples of the book of Enoch contradicting Scripture.

Think what you want -as to comparing a new name 'Extraterrestrial" to Watchers old school. That too is just your opinion , if you believe in aliens or not- your view. The fact is there are fallen angels and they are deceptive and they can reinvent themselves before man, to convince man they are something else to remain relevant .

My view? My opinion? As opposed to your facts and proofs? No, you also have opinions and views. It's just that yours are extraordinary claims, while mine are skeptical. Mine do not require the same standard of proof.

The bottom line is I present two sides of an argument , you have not, nor have you with scripture given any concrete proof against the writings of Enoch. With that said go back and read what was posted, my rebuttals against you and others are there.
Do not know what you are ranting about, remember you asked!

I don't think I'm the one ranting here.

 

[I Love An Atheist]

Another thing I do not use the Talmud, the Talmud contains information which Jews have picked and chosen from scripture what they wanted and mix it with esoteric practices and only Rabbinical traditions.

I'm aware of that. I just wondered if it contained any real history within it, too.

As for pansexual, and going in unto animals , if a book which predated all the scriptures OT and NT speaks of the very things which go on today THAT YOU ARE INQUIRING ABOUT is it fair to say there must be some relevance to the work ?

Not necessarily. People get bored with pleasures, the more they are hedonistic. Then they need to seek something more extreme to feel something. If they have no moral absolutes to believe in, and they can rationalize they are doing no harm, there may be nothing to stop them from doing bizarre acts, especially under the influence of drugs and peers.

I don't know, maybe reason and deduction? Now, if you are going to say this does not go on today, what is your question then?

I never said this does not go on today.

My questions were what they were and are what they are. They are not static. I am thinking as I go. Don't you do that, too? What's the issue with doing that?

Unless someone lives in a bubble we know it goes on because elites tout it. Do they engineer DNA today? Does Enoch say they did then,? YES and this BEFORE ANY TALMUD WAS FORMED OR ANY OTHER SCRIPTURE WRITTEN. Again, scales tipped heavily in my favor simply by commonsense. There is nothing new under the sun. But that which already HAPPENED we only know because of Enoch no one else!

There are other things like that. The Dogon tribe knew of the second star in the binary star system of Sirius, even though this star cannot be seen with the naked eye. Does this mean we also need to believe they learned it from extraterrestrials who came from Sirius and who were amphibious in form?

We no doubt have some lost history going on. We just need to be cautious with fragmented and suggestive findings and be fact-heavy while being interpretation-light.

You loose because your own questions prove the truth of Enoch who spoke it before you or anyone.
Preceding Generations Forgotten Ecclesiastes 1:8-10
…8All things are wearisome; Man is not able to tell it. The eye is not satisfied with seeing, Nor is the ear filled with hearing. 9That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun. 10Is there anything of which one might say, "See this, it is new "? Already it has existed for ages Which were before us.…

Whether one agrees with me fully or not, the argument is won by me because you can not question the fact that all- has already been done and Enoch is the one who bore witness to it. God Bless!

Anyway, back up your claims. Where does it say in the book of Enoch that ancient peoples genetically engineered DNA. Citations please.

How interpretive are you being here? You can read about Isis in the Epic of Gilgamesh copulating with all kinds of animals. So was that meant to be literal? I don't think most scholars of Gilgamesh take it that way.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

Yes, you did share proof, so thank you. It doesn't mean I have to embrace it.

It's not quite true I presented nothing but my opinion. I presented logic.

I don't need to bring facts against your claims. You need to bring facts in support of your claims.

You are doubled minded and contradict yourself not me . Proof =FACTS which support CLAIMS. Did that (CHECK MATE)

As for you presenting logic, logic is supported by FACTS= Proof of claims, you 0 me 1, SCALES TIPPING IN MY FAVOR!

You are not even paying attention to what I have replied. I stated clearly I think so-called aliens are probably demons.

While in the same breath saying so-called:
Matthew 5:37
37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

Either they are or they are not otherwise you just believe they are aliens and you too believe a false doctrine as does the Pope.

Of course I don't have to believe it. Do you need others to believe it, too, so that you can feel secure in your own beliefs?

Your answer as to believing giants walked the earth or not. I hope you do believe- otherwise you defy scripture and archeology discovery.
Genesis 6:4

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the ...

David Slays Goliath 1Samuel 17:48-50
…48Then it happened when the Philistine rose and came and drew near to meet David, that David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet the Philistine. 49And David put his hand into his bag and took from it a stone and slung it, and struck the Philistine on his forehead. And the stone sank into his forehead, so that he fell on his face to the ground. 50Thus David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone, and he struck the Philistine and killed him; but there was no sword in David's hand.…

Everyone knows Goliath was a giant Christianity for little tykes 101.
The Reports of the Spies Numbers 13:32-33
…32So they gave out to the sons of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, "The land through which we have gone, in spying it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great size. 33"There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight."

HMMM? And before all of this Enoch spoke about them . OfLivingWaters 3 , ILove An Atheist 0 you probably should put your eggs all in God's basket instead of an atheist's.

I didn't know there was anything to study. Now I know. The funny thing is, nothing you have said to me is new to me, although I have never read your source.

Again double minded, or at least bi-polar like in thought. You ask about modern practice and their correlation to the Talmud, then say you did not know there was anything to study. But now you know, yet i have said nothing new to you????? WHAT!?????

ME 4, YOU 0. This is fun I am going to NOT spare your arrogant feelings and keep going!

As for others believing in the giants of scripture to secure my beliefs, they need only be secure with God who my beliefs are in.
Not one thing I have said contradicts the Word but you have!
Waters:5 , Atheist :0

Attack a whole denomination? What denomination would that be? Do you belong to a denomination that uses the book of Enoch for theology?

The Ethiopian Orthodox and NOT WHICH has been absorbed into Catholicism (Tewahedo) and many Jewish Christians,
and Christians of various denominations.
And this with NO PROOF of your claims!

ME 6- YOU 0. Need I go on? No, but I will because the Lord hates arrogance and I love all His prophecy and Words for it is to let His children KNOW about Him. Prophecy is important, because it WARNS, it is an Alarm for the times, it guides and can also prevent undesirable outcomes , like we unfortunately see today because they are not heeded. So, to your claim you do not hang your faith on prophecy because it is not necessary , though that was not what my argument was about, it is obvious that Prophecy is necessary for the salvation of some . Hence, the two Witnesses of Rev.

ME 7, You 0!

You're yelling again. You seem easily upset about disagreement on this topic. Do you feel that insecure about your belief in it that you need others to be equally convinced to feel confident?

Proof you are arrogant and self righteous and disingenuous concerning your OP , you were Not looking for sincere dialogue but to provoke. I am not yelling learn the difference, (not that you could tell unless you can hear through a computer) between that and zeal.

I'm sorry, but that is just analysis by assertion. Who do you think you're fooling? Apparently you're poorly fooling yourself, otherwise you would not be assiduously avoiding direct replies to the two other people in this thread who have presented many examples of the book of Enoch contradicting Scripture.

No not one contradiction learn the meaning of words to say Lucifer is the only covering Cherub and that for angels to be talking to Enoch is putting them above the Only mediator between God and man is a lie! PERIOD! That would be to ignore all purposed scripture which addresses (including St. Paul's works) angels are ministering spirits.

That is what is ASSIDUOUSLY avoids the Enoch's replies, and God's concerning His ministering angels. Now I have to defend another of God's works. And you still have not disproved anything concerning Enoch nor has anyone else. The only thing you have proved is your arrogance.

My view? My opinion? As opposed to your facts and proofs? No, you also have opinions and views. It's just that yours are extraordinary claims, while mine are skeptical. Mine do not require the same standard of proof.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

answered continued:
OfLivingWaters said:
Duh! That is what we are to bring proof to( Our opinions and views) Extraordinary claims of what? That what
is- is what was- and your OP questions are addressed by not only scripture but also Enoch's writings which state
it before all? Hello! did you not say you already knew what I said anyway ?

I didn't know there was anything to study. Now
I know. The funny thing is, nothing you have said to me is new to me, although I have never read your source.[/
QUOTE]


OfLivingWaters said:
You say you have never read my source yet you say it is wrong???? Really? You are confused and since admit-
tedly you claim

you have not read my source you are not qualified, logically speaking ( since you espouse to that ) to respond .



OfLivingWaters 10 - You 0.

scales still in my favor. I will end this !



Preceding Generations Forgotten Ecclesiastes 1:8-10.

…8All things are wearisome; Man is not able to tell it. The eye is not satisfied with seeing, Nor is the ear filled
with hearing. 9That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be
done. So there is nothing new under the sun. 10Is there anything of which one might say, "See this, it is new "?
Already it has existed for ages Which were before us.…



Correct a wise man and he will be come wiser, correct a fool and you will gain his spurn.



spurn

sp?rn/

verb

verb: spurn; 3rd person present: spurns; past tense: spurned; past participle: spurned; gerund or present partici-
ple: spurning

1.

reject with disdain or contempt.



No proof against what I said but, I did receive a lot of this from you.

 

[I Love An Atheist]

You are doubled minded and contradict yourself not me . Proof =FACTS which support CLAIMS. Did that (CHECK MATE)

As for you presenting logic, logic is supported by FACTS= Proof of claims, you 0 me 1, SCALES TIPPING IN MY FAVOR!


While in the same breath saying so-called:
Matthew 5:37
37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

Either they are or they are not otherwise you just believe they are aliens and you too believe a false doctrine as does the Pope.


Your answer as to believing giants walked the earth or not. I hope you do believe- otherwise you defy scripture and archeology discovery.
Genesis 6:4

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the ...

David Slays Goliath 1Samuel 17:48-50
…48Then it happened when the Philistine rose and came and drew near to meet David, that David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet the Philistine. 49And David put his hand into his bag and took from it a stone and slung it, and struck the Philistine on his forehead. And the stone sank into his forehead, so that he fell on his face to the ground. 50Thus David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone, and he struck the Philistine and killed him; but there was no sword in David's hand.…

Everyone knows Goliath was a giant Christianity for little tykes 101.
The Reports of the Spies Numbers 13:32-33
…32So they gave out to the sons of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, "The land through which we have gone, in spying it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great size. 33"There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight."

HMMM? And before all of this Enoch spoke about them . OfLivingWaters 3 , ILove An Atheist 0 you probably should put your eggs all in God's basket instead of an atheist's.


Again double minded, or at least bi-polar like in thought. You ask about modern practice and their correlation to the Talmud, then say you did not know there was anything to study. But now you know, yet i have said nothing new to you????? WHAT!?????

ME 4, YOU 0. This is fun I am going to NOT spare your arrogant feelings and keep going!

As for others believing in the giants of scripture to secure my beliefs, they need only be secure with God who my beliefs are in.
Not one thing I have said contradicts the Word but you have!
Waters:5 , Atheist :0

The Ethiopian Orthodox and NOT WHICH has been absorbed into Catholicism (Tewahedo) and many Jewish Christians,
and Christians of various denominations.
And this with NO PROOF of your claims!

ME 6- YOU 0. Need I go on? No, but I will because the Lord hates arrogance and I love all His prophecy and Words for it is to let His children KNOW about Him. Prophecy is important, because it WARNS, it is an Alarm for the times, it guides and can also prevent undesirable outcomes , like we unfortunately see today because they are not heeded. So, to your claim you do not hang your faith on prophecy because it is not necessary , though that was not what my argument was about, it is obvious that Prophecy is necessary for the salvation of some . Hence, the two Witnesses of Rev.

ME 7, You 0!



Proof you are arrogant and self righteous and disingenuous concerning your OP , you were Not looking for sincere dialogue but to provoke. I am not yelling learn the difference, (not that you could tell unless you can hear through a computer) between that and zeal.


No not one contradiction learn the meaning of words to say Lucifer is the only covering Cherub and that for angels to be talking to Enoch is putting them above the Only mediator between God and man is a lie! PERIOD! That would be to ignore all purposed scripture which addresses (including St. Paul's works) angels are ministering spirits.

That is what is ASSIDUOUSLY avoids the Enoch's replies, and God's concerning His ministering angels. Now I have to defend another of God's works. And you still have not disproved anything concerning Enoch nor has anyone else. The only thing you have proved is your arrogance.

Thank you for diagnosing me. That was wonderful. Ad hominem attacks much?

Your main problem remains -- which is that you need not only to prove that giants existed -- but that those giants were the offspring of fallen angels mating with human women.

I'm still waiting for citations to prove that ancient people genetically engineered DNA ...

 

[I Love An Atheist]

Another thought occurs to me while on this subject. This is speculative. I have no problem stating up front that I am not a know-it-all but only curious. This is not a thread about how I am smarter than everybody else and they need to give up now and just accept everything I ever say from now on.

With that in mind, what I speculate about it is whether the atmosphere was different before the flood, so that animals and plants could in some instances grow larger. There is a tiny plant called Lycopodium, and it grows in the woods very close to the ground and almost in moss-like fashion. It used to be gigantic in the age of the dinosaur. So maybe there were gigantic humans before the flood, and some of them survived the flood.

This is addressed to anybody who may have actual good research about the topic, since I originally started this thread because I wanted to learn something, and not because I am a dog looking for a cult master.

 

[church mouse guy]

Interesting, do you have favorite books or links?

Thanks for your kind words. I am elderly so I like short articles and videos more than books nowadays but I do have a few books.

Young Earth Creationists (YECs) are very persuasive because there is no other logical alternative than that the world is 6,000 years old and was created in six days and altered greatly by the Genesis Flood of Noah 4300 years ago, followed by an Ice Age of 700 years duration that covered thirty percent of the globe. Alaska figures mightily in the Ice Age because only the upper altitudes were covered with ice and the lower sea levels had to have affected human and animal migration, huh? Also, Alaska had a lot of Woolly Mammoths, a puzzle for evolutionists but not for creationists! The Mammoth and the Ice Age

Here are some YEC sources that answer about anything:

The Institute for Creation Research, one of the original scientific sources: http://www.icr.org/homepage/

Creation Ministries International, their excellent tv shows are mostly on YouTube: https://creation.com/

Answers in Genesis, the home site of Ken Ham and the Creation Museum and Ark Encounter in Kentucky. Under media, on the AiG site there are many free videos. Answers in Genesis

Creation Today, the website of Eric Hovind who has produced one Genesis Movie for theaters and is working on a sequel: Creation Today | Impacting Our World with the Creation Message

Blessings. cmg

 

[I Love An Atheist]

answered continued:
OfLivingWaters said:
Duh! That is what we are to bring proof to( Our opinions and views) Extraordinary claims of what?

You can't just expect people to believe the book of Enoch as if it was a literal historical account written by Noah's grandfather and lost to history. The brief research I did put that in dispute. At the very least you need to treat it as a controversial subject. You are treating it as if it is established and getting upset at people who dispute anything about it. And on a Baptist forum no less. I'm not a Baptist, but I like to talk to Baptists because they are Bible literate. You can't just expect them not to know it and point it out if something in the book of Enoch contradicts Scripture. You are really not being rational here at all. I'm sorry.

That what is- is what was- and your OP questions are addressed by not only scripture but also Enoch's writings which state
it before all?

But the credibility of the book of Enoch is in dispute. A couple others in this thread have shown that it contradicts Scripture. You still have not addressed what they said. It's kind of important. Especially here. Where do you think you are?

Hello! did you not say you already knew what I said anyway ?

Not exactly. I was disappointed to find that the book of Enoch was presenting the type of material I am already somewhat familiar with (and weary of). I had actually previously learned about it but forgotten about it. I had never delved into it in depth.

Actually I became aware of it as the source material for Brian Godawas novel series about The War of the Seed. I bought his first novel, and I was excited that he included his scholarly notes in a free book. So I read that, too. I couldn't get far in the novel. His Noah character was hunting humans with tainted DNA, and it disturbed me a little. So I started to research Godawa's Serpent Seed Theory and became horrified the more I studied it as a historical idea and how it manifested in history.

That was a couple years ago. I had forgotten about it. Then when I realized you were mentioning the very same book of Enoch drawn upon by Brian Godawa, I did a U turn.

Then I thought, I wonder if I interested some unknown reader in Enoch, and because of me somebody browsing this thread randomly could be misled. Or if I gave the impression that I believe in this type of material. So I thought, it's really my responsibility now to clear this up, just in case, to the best of my ability according to my opinions at this time and what I know at this time.

I can understand the appeal of the book of Enoch, I truly can. It is tantalizing to suppose you could be reading that kind of lost history. I've been there and done that type of thing before, not with that material, but with other more popularized books like Graham Hancock's.

Honestly the book of Enoch reminds me very strongly of Chariots of the Gods and Graham Hancock's work and the Ancient Alien series on the History Channel.

And you can see if you follow Hancock he went nuts when he took drugs as he went along in his work. He thought he was getting direct revelations of truth somehow.

I am not going to become an instant scholar on the book of Enoch just to debate it, but I am not completely naive about this whole subject matter, either. It is not completely unfamiliar. I have a sense of recognition, and long ago I eventually became disgusted.

Everybody can make up their own minds. Are you now willing to allow that? Can you tolerate other opinions? Or do you need to people to treat you as the Enoch guru?

 

[I Love An Atheist]

Thanks for your kind words. I am elderly so I like short articles and videos more than books nowadays but I do have a few books.

Young Earth Creationists (YECs) are very persuasive because there is no other logical alternative than that the world is 6,000 years old and was created in six days and altered greatly by the Genesis Flood of Noah 4300 years ago, followed by an Ice Age of 700 years duration that covered thirty percent of the globe. Alaska figures mightily in the Ice Age because only the upper altitudes were covered with ice and the lower sea levels had to have affected human and animal migration, huh? Also, Alaska had a lot of Woolly Mammoths, a puzzle for evolutionists but not for creationists! The Mammoth and the Ice Age

Here are some YEC sources that answer about anything:

The Institute for Creation Research, one of the original scientific sources: http://www.icr.org/homepage/

Creation Ministries International, their excellent tv shows are mostly on YouTube: https://creation.com/

Answers in Genesis, the home site of Ken Ham and the Creation Museum and Ark Encounter in Kentucky. Under media, on the AiG site there are many free videos. Answers in Genesis

Creation Today, the website of Eric Hovind who has produced one Genesis Movie for theaters and is working on a sequel: Creation Today | Impacting Our World with the Creation Message

Blessings. cmg

Thank you, this all interests me. It'll take me a while to research it all.

 

[I Love An Atheist]

Interesting. The first hit that came up when I searched on DuckDuckGo for "book of enoch genetic engineering" was:

The Possibility of Genetic Engineering - Ellen G. White

I became curious then about SDAs and the book of Enoch and found this:

Ellen White and the Mystery of Enoch - NonSDA.org

"Enoch is an all-important figure in the writings of Ellen White. Despite the fact the Bible only mentions him in a handful of verses, Ellen White mentions him hundreds of times in her writings. According to her writings, Enoch, attained to a perfection of character that allowed God to take him to heaven. Therefore, Enoch is an apt representation of what all Seventh-day Adventists need to strive to become before their translation into heaven at the second coming of Christ.

Perhaps part of the reason Mrs. White identified so closely with Enoch is that she believed him to be an Adventist like herself.

In fact, at one point early in her career she claimed to have held a conversation with Enoch on a mysterious planet with seven moons...."

 

[church mouse guy]

The so-called book of Enoch is a gnostic document, not a Christian document. Gnosticism is a cult that attacked both Jews and Christians. In this case, Gnosticism is attacking Genesis and Noah. Gnosticism died out centuries ago but has had a small handful here and there since. To me, it seems like an oriental knockoff of Hindu and Bhuddist thinking. Gnostics claim that they have secret knowledge that no one else has. They are cousins of the occult. Catholicism labels them a fungus because they are only found where there is Christianity or Judaism. Islam never tolerated them and the Orient never considered them.

As descendants of Noah, Gnostics hardly can logically say that they know better than Noah about the Genesis Flood. God told Noah that the earth was filled with violence. God also said that it was corrupt.
The Gnostics themselves made up their own books for their own religion. Of course, they are not going to agree with Scripture because they openly hate Jews and Christian's.

 

[I Love An Atheist]

You are doubled minded and contradict yourself not me . Proof =FACTS which support CLAIMS. Did that (CHECK MATE)

As for you presenting logic, logic is supported by FACTS= Proof of claims, you 0 me 1, SCALES TIPPING IN MY FAVOR!

Ha, I will have to give you just this one point. I mistyped when I used the word "proof".

My intention was actually to acknowledge that you were trying to answer my question in my OP. Oh, and you were yelling again, but I assume this time it must have been in joy to have scored a debate point.

I have been busy today helping to make Snap Circuit projects, cleaning up after science experiments and cooking for Memorial Day dinner. Plus helping with Word nested table issues in somebody's resume. No time to edit and proof-read here.

 

[church mouse guy]

When the earth's plates began to move at high speeds at the end of the Genesis worldwide flood, Alaska must have been in a big collision to have such high mountains pushed up. And then the lowlands were not glaciated so that people and animals clearly crossed from Asia. What an interesting geology!

 

[One Baptism]

The only disinformation there is, is what you are conveying in your admittedly lack of knowledge.
...
AN Objection: “The sons of God are the godly line who have come down from Adam through Seth, and the daughters of men belong to the line of Cain. What you have here now is an intermingling and intermarriage of these two lines, until finally the entire line is totally corrupted (well, not totally; there is one exception). That is the picture that is presented to us here.”

This objection is based on ignorance to the Hebrew language and the context of the meaning of words.


Response: The above thought process is an interpretation of Genesis 6:2 that is not based in reality. The passage states, “That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.” In the above thought process, the “sons of God” are understood to be the descendants of Seth, whereas the “daughters of man” are considered the descendants of Cain, but there are a handful of reasons why this thought process is not accurate. First, the phrase “sons of God” is used elsewhere in Hebrew literature only when referring to angelic beings. Second, the action taking place in Genesis 6:2 was so grievous in God’s sight that it caused Him to say only a few passages later, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the surface of the ground… for I am sorry that I have made them.” Yet this destructive proclamation is on the back of God having commanded mankind to “Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it.” (Genesis 1:28) It is inconceivable that God was so grieved by human reproduction that He saw fit to destroy the world.

You may NOT LIKE what Enoch wrote about women...

Hello "OfLivingWaters".

Would you mind reading through a thread I participated in a while ago on this subject, and let me know what you think, in specifics?

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

... to be continued ...

 

[One Baptism]

...

... continued ...

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post [a bit altered do to board changes] - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'

Post - Some think 'Angels' can procreate. The Scripture [KJB] declares, 'Not so.'​

 

[One Baptism]

Interesting. The first hit that came up when I searched on DuckDuckGo for "book of enoch genetic engineering" was:

[gross distortion of facts website - removed]

I became curious then about SDAs and the book of Enoch and found this:

[gross distortion of facts website - removed]

"Enoch is an all-important figure in the writings of Ellen White. Despite the fact the Bible only mentions him in a handful of verses, Ellen White mentions him hundreds of times in her writings. According to her writings, Enoch, attained to a perfection of character that allowed God to take him to heaven. Therefore, Enoch is an apt representation of what all Seventh-day Adventists need to strive to become before their translation into heaven at the second coming of Christ.

Perhaps part of the reason Mrs. White identified so closely with Enoch is that she believed him to be an Adventist like herself.

In fact, at one point early in her career she claimed to have held a conversation with Enoch on a mysterious planet with seven moons...."

There is so much nonsense [from non-Seventh-day Adventist] in those two disinformation centers, it's easier to stick to the facts.

I am an officially recognized member of the Seventh-day Adventist movement, and have been for about 10 years now, and have ministered [not a Pastoral position, but preaching, teaching, etc] in the movements body and also in the world-recognized media-ministry therein. Here then are the facts on sister White and "Enoch".

Fact:

[1] sister White wrote about "Enoch".

In doing a simple search for the name of "Enoch" in the online database from the official Ellen G. White estate archives, we find that the name of "Enoch" comes up exactly "903" hits - Ellen G. White Writings

Many of those "903 hits" are duplicates, being requoted in compilations of statements after sister White died, for instance see, "there I saw good old Enoch" - Ellen G. White Writings

Many of those "903 hits" are duplicates of when sister White was alive, reconstituting an older statement into another book or later work, such as Prophets and Kings.

Many of those "903 hits", the name of "Enoch" appears in a list of other patriarchs, in a general description of the plan of redemption in the shadows -

"The Lord has made known to Adam, Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and the ancient worthies, especially Moses, that the ceremonial system of sacrifices and the priesthood, of themselves, were not sufficient to secure the salvation of one soul." - The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 2, Page 10 -- Ellen G. White Writings
​

At least "17 hits" [others may reference, but I only chose to refer only to the obvious] of those "903 hits" are not about the Bible "Enoch" at all, but in reference to another brother, named "Enoch Jacobs" - Ellen G. White Writings

In comparison to others:

"Jesus" - "64787 hits" - Ellen G. White Writings

"Paul" - "7733 hits" - Ellen G. White Writings

"Moses" - "7083 hits" - Ellen G. White Writings

"Adam" - "3674 hits" - Ellen G. White Writings

"Adam" [KJB, specific] - 31 times. Thus compare the percentages in KJB to EGW.
"Enoch" [KJB, specific] - 12 times. 31/12 = 2.583--; 3674/903 = 4.0686
​

"Abraham" - "2269 hits" - Ellen G. White Writings

"Noah" - "1306 hits" - Ellen G. White Writings
​

... to be continued ...​

 

[One Baptism]

...

... continued ...

[2] sister White, did see in single vision, the translated and glorified "Enoch" on another world with "seven moons" ["12 hits", most of which are duplicates of the original singular vision] and asked Enoch in that vision a single question - Ellen G. White Writings

"... The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the City to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes, they were noble, majestic and lovely. They bore the express image of Jesus, and their countenances beamed with holy joy, expressive of the freedom and happiness of the place. I asked one of them why they were so much more lovely than those on the earth. The reply was—“we have lived in strict obedience to the commandments of God and have not fallen by disobedience, like those on the earth. There I saw two trees, one looked much like the tree of life in the City. The fruit of both looked beautiful; but of one they could not eat. They had power to eat of both, but were forbidden to eat of one. Then my attending angel said to me—“none in this place have tasted of the forbidden tree; but if they should eat they would fall.” Then I was taken to a world which had seven moons. Then I saw good old Enoch, who had been translated. On his right arm he bore a glorious palm, and on each leaf was written Victory. Around his head was a dazzling white wreath, and leaves on the wreath, and in the middle of each leaf was written Purity; and around the leaf were stones of various colors, that shone brighter than the stars, and cast a reflection upon the letters, and magnified them. On the back part of his head was a bow that confined the wreath, and upon the bow was written Holiness. Above the wreath was a lovely crown that shone brighter than the sun. I asked him if this was the place he was taken to from the earth. He said “it is not; but the City is my home, and I have come to visit this place.” He moved about the place as if perfectly at home. I begged of my attending angel to let me remain in that place. I could not bear the thought of coming back to this dark world again. Then the angel said—“you must go back, and if you are faithful, you, with the 144,000 shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handy work of God.” PT August 1, 1849, par. 18 ..." - The Present Truth August 1, 1849 paragraph 18
​

[3] sister White does not teach, in any location, the nonsense of angel-human hybrids. Read Patriarchs and Prophets, the Truth about Angels, Early Writings, and The Story of Redemption. - Patriarchs and Prophets, Page 90 -- Ellen G. White Writings​

[4] the Bible [KJB] and sister White point out the important and significant [not "all important"] translation of Enoch. He is a type for the end times peoples, and the type for the Christian who walks daily with God. Similar instruction is given in regards, Moses, Elijah and the firstfruits resurrected at Jesus' own resurrection, in regards the translation and resurrections to come.

[5] according to the Bible [KJB] and sister White, Enoch was indeed a "Seventh-day Adventist", but so were Adam, Abel, Seth, Methuselah, Noah, Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Moses, David, Solomon, Daniel [and the prophets], John the Baptist, Jesus, the Apostles and early disciples according to the same, The name Seventh-day Adventist speaks from Creation to Consumation, Alpha to Omega, beginning to ending, first to last, from Author to Finisher, etc, etc.

[6] neither the Bible [KJB] or sister White mention the "Book of Enoch" [1, 2 or 3] [period]​

[7] Jude [KJB] does not cite the "Book of Enoch" [1, 2 or 3] [for those who think it is possible that was the source] from any section/chapter of the "Book of Enoch" [1, 2 or 3] that reference the angel-human hybrids.​

 

[One Baptism]

As for the OP topic itself. There is plenty of details, when one reads the Bible prayerfully and studying line upon line, precept upon precept and the Holy Ghost connects in the mind those scriptures, and when understand typology, combined with prophecy, natural to spiritual, etc, etc.

For instance [a piece of a much larger study]:

"... The day of God's calling to repentance is still open, and He is calling all to come back to Living Creator, the LORD of the Sabbath, for many have been ignorant of His righteousness [Psalms 119:142,151,172 KJB], and go about attempting to establish their own righteousness, their own way [Romans 10:3 KJB]:

Acts 17:30 KJB - And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
​

As it was in the days of Noah, people are buying and selling upon God's holy Day, and they plant and build upon His holy Day, and yet, God still has a door of mercy open to all who will hearken unto the Holy Spirit, but to those who blaspheme the Holy Ghost, calling it the work of the devil, are grieving away their only and last chances to enter into the ARK of God:

Revelation 11:19 KJB - And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
​

In the middle of that ARK, is God's Law of Light, and in the middle of the Law is His Rest ... O sinner, o backslidden peoples, will you not enter into His "rest", His seventh day the Sabbath, before the door of probation closes? It is soon, so very soon, and then the "drops" of God's wrath will fall, and turn into cataracts of sorrow and woe, without mercy ... unmingle wrath, for God will sware again, "They [who have turned away from my final pleadings] will not ever enter into my rest" ...

O let us humble ourselves before the great and awesome Creator and Redeeming God before it is too late, everlastingly too late. There is still time. Even if the heart is hard in unbelief, Jesus can heal it, He can forgive it, Jesus can cleanse it, Jesus can show you more as needed, but we must all take the first step toward Him!, but He cannot forgive, nor heal, the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost ..." - Hebrews 3-4 [KJB], the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD JEHOVAH - "my rest" "remaineth" to My people.
​

Also when one makes the connections as Jesus tells us to make with days of Noe and Lot, we can see more, for when a certain unnatural sin attempted to force its way into the quarters of the church [Lot's house in the city, see also Judges 19], God said, "Enough". The "Door" of probation was shut by the angels [see Revelation 14:6-12 KJB].

Also see that Day 6, "marriage" is attacked first, and then Day 7, the "Sabbath of the LORD" comes next, first state to state, to national, to international ...

The twin institutions of Eden, at-one-ment of man [Adam to Eve] and the 7th Day, at-one-ment with God, and the first anti-twin is born ... it is not much longer for the following anti-twin [in several stages].

I also have much material [I am putting together] on the word "imaginations" in Genesis 6 and 11, since history is being repeated, and the video game/movie/entertainment world, along with AI, Robotics, Weapons, holograms, lasers, even the angels of Lie-ght ... who are already ensnaring the world for the final and greatest deception...

See [very dangerous, see especially Time Index 0:24, "and imagination has no limits" = Genesis 11:6 KJB - And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.]:

Rapture vest and helmet, for satan is taking away the mind/heart by force, using the elements of the dragon to fight the dragon, How can satan cast out satan? endless war, fighting against the God of Heaven, sorcery, spiritualism, 'alien-lie', a counterfit of the Mother-city above us all [New Jerusalem] ...

Void: Desolate temples - without form and void, Unformed and Unfilled, Incomplete and Unfulfilled ...