Human State at birth?

[Winman]

So when you sin, you become "out" of Christ? You lose your salvation that you had at birth? That won't work. Sorry brother.

Amy, we are just like Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were made upright, and Ecc 7:29 says all men are made upright.

When Adam and Eve sinned, they spiritually died right then and there. They did not physically die until centuries later.

When Adam and Eve believed God's promise to send a Saviour they were saved, God then took skins and covered them representing the righteousness imputed to us. Now they were alive AGAIN.

Here is the promise made to Adam and Eve.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Here is Adam and Eve being covered by the skins. Blood had to be shed.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

How do we know Adam and Eve believed the promise? It is shown in the next chapter.

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Eve was mistaken, but she believed Cain came from God and was the promised Saviour. She had faith in God's promise. When they believed they were made spiritually alive again. However, their body was still under the curse and they died physically many years later as we all do.

"In Adam" is said only once in all the scriptures (1 Cor 15:22). This entire chapter is speaking of the physical resurrection of our bodies, not spiritual. All men are "in Adam" physically and all die, even innocent babies.

Being born of Adam does not separate you from God, sinning separates you from God.

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

How can our sins separate us from God if we are born separated from God because of Adam's sin?

 

[convicted1]

Paul was never "apart" from the Law because he was born under the Law and its curse. When he said he "died" he means that he realized that he was a sinner and the Law proved it.

How can one be spiritually alive yet under a curse at the same time??

When we are born again, we are freed from the curse of sin. We are no longer "under" it.

The prodical son returned home, correct? How could he return home if he wasn't there to begin with?

The father said this, my son, is alive again. How could he be alive again if he was spiritually dead from birth?

Unless you believe in a fall from grace(which I am sure you don't), then being born spiritually dead is not plausible, IMHO.

 

[Amy.G]

The prodical son returned home, correct? How could he return home if he wasn't there to begin with?

The father said this, my son, is alive again. How could he be alive again if he was spiritually dead from birth?

I think the story of the prodigal is speaking of God's redemption of mankind, not an individual. Mankind (Adam) was once pure, but no longer is and must be redeemed.

Unless you believe in a fall from grace(which I am sure you don't), then being born spiritually dead is not plausible, IMHO.

No I don't believe that, but you seem to be saying that when you say that one is "in Christ" at birth, but later he is lost and needs to be saved.

 

[percho]

Paul was never "apart" from the Law because he was born under the Law and its curse. When he said he "died" he means that he realized that he was a sinner and the Law proved it.

How can one be spiritually alive yet under a curse at the same time??

When we are born again, we are freed from the curse of sin. We are no longer "under" it.

Right again: we were kept under the law,
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law,

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

For he hath made him sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, we are just like Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were made upright, and Ecc 7:29 says all men are made upright.

It doesn't say "all men". It says "man"

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

'adam aw-dawm'
from 119; ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.):--X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.


In this context, it means "mankind". Adam was made upright. We are made like fallen Adam. Why did Mary have to be a virgin to bear God's Son?

 

[percho]

I think the story of the prodigal is speaking of God's redemption of mankind, not an individual. Mankind (Adam) was once pure, but no longer is and must be redeemed.


No I don't believe that, but you seem to be saying that when you say that one is "in Christ" at birth, but later he is lost and needs to be saved.

Me thinks there were two sons. The prodigal was the house of Israel whom God had given a bill divorce the other was the house of Judah who was in the land when Jesus of the tribe of Judah was born in the land as one of his own. Judah still had the identifying sign as the people of God the others had turned their backs on the law of God and had been scattered among the nations by God and were considered Gentiles. There was no more a remembrance of them among men. Deut 32:26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:

That could not mean the house of Judah the Jews, everyone in all nations have always known who they are.

Have they not???

 

[Winman]

It doesn't say "all men". It says "man"

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

No Amy, the word "they" is plural and points directly to the word "man" showing this is speaking of all men, not just Adam.

'adam aw-dawm'
from 119; ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.):--X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.

In this context, it means "mankind". Adam was made upright. We are made like fallen Adam. Why did Mary have to be a virgin to bear God's Son?

Again, the word "they" shows this is speaking of all men.

And the reason Jesus was born of a virgin was to be a sign. NEVER in the scriptures does it say Jesus had to be born of a virgin to escape a sin nature. In fact, Jesus got his ability to be tempted from Mary his mother, as God the Father cannot be tempted. But Jesus was able to be tempted.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Jesus being born of a virgin was a sign, it proved he was born of God. If Mary had not been a virgin, then no one would have believed Jesus was the Son of God, they would have believed him the son of Joseph.

And virgins are just as sinful as everyone else. Sin is not spread physically or through lust as Augustine believed. It is not passed through the blood. Sin is a moral issue, not physical.

If we sin because we receive a sin nature physically, then we are not to blame for our sin, anymore than a person who inherits a disease or disorder from their parents would be guilty.

Believeing sin is passed physically is nothing but pure superstition.

 

[Cypress]

Well said once again.

 

[webdog]

It doesn't say "all men". It says "man"

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

'adam aw-dawm'
from 119; ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.):--X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.


In this context, it means "mankind". Adam was made upright. We are made like fallen Adam. Why did Mary have to be a virgin to bear God's Son?

Distinction without a difference.

 

[webdog]

Paul was never "apart" from the Law because he was born under the Law and its curse. When he said he "died" he means that he realized that he was a sinner and the Law proved it.

...except Paul never says that, he states plainly "I died". James 1:15 attests to this. You have bought the reformers excuse for this verse hook, line and sinker. At any rate guilt is associated with consciously violating God's law, so your interpretation still supports my understanding that spiritual death occurrs via consciously violating God's law.

How can one be spiritually alive yet under a curse at the same time??

Um...like you and I right this moment?

When we are born again, we are freed from the curse of sin. We are no longer "under" it.

Hardly. I'm still going to die physically. I still sin. So do you. Creation is still groaning waiting for redemption. We are ultimately freed from the curse, but we most definitely still under it until glorification.

 

[jbh28]

No Amy, the word "they" is plural and points directly to the word "man" showing this is speaking of all men, not just Adam.

"Man" is still singular. The "they" refers to those that come after Adam.

 

[webdog]

"Man" is still singular. The "they" refers to those that come after Adam.

Not in context. "Species, mankind" in Amy's definiton is what applies.

 

[Amy.G]

...except Paul never says that, he states plainly "I died". James 1:15 attests to this. You have bought the reformers excuse for this verse hook, line and sinker.

Baloney. Here is John Wesley's commentary:

John Wesley's Notes on the Bible
Romans 7:9
Verse 9. And I was once alive without the law - Without the close application of it. I had much life, wisdom, virtue, strength: so I thought. But when the commandment - That is, the law, a part put for the whole; but this expression particularly intimates its compulsive force, which restrains, enjoins, urges, forbids, threatens. Came - In its spiritual meaning, to my heart, with the power of God. Sin revived, and I died - My inbred sin took fire, and all my virtue and strength died away; and I then saw myself to be dead in sin, and liable to death eternal.

John Wesley was an Arminian.

Um...like you and I right this moment?
Hardly. I'm still going to die physically. I still sin. So do you. Creation is still groaning waiting for redemption. We are ultimately freed from the curse, but we most definitely still under it until glorification.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

No. We are not under the curse of sin. We have been freed from it. Our bodies will die, but our spirit is freed from the curse and our bodies will be redeemed at the resurrection.

 

[webdog]

Baloney. Here is John Wesley's commentary:

Missed the memo where he is the authority on original sin. FTR, the majority of cal's and non erroneously hold to Augustinianism, a holdover from the RCC.

John Wesley was an Arminian.

...and Arminians also err.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

No. We are not under the curse of sin. We have been freed from it. Our bodies will die, but our spirit is freed from the curse and our bodies will be redeemed at the resurrection.

Curse of the law is now the same as the curse of sin? Do tell how our bodies still die if we have been freed from this curse?

“And as it is appointed unto
men once to die, but after
this the judgment”

Sure sounds like the curse of death (result of sin) still reigns to me.

 

[Amy.G]

...and Arminians also err.

You said I had fallen hook, line and sinker for Calvnism and I have proven to you that it's not just Cals that hold this view.

Please stop insulting me.

 

[webdog]

Going to bed...so Amy doesn't have to wait all night

 

[webdog]

You said I had fallen hook, line and sinker for Calvnism and I have proven to you that it's not just Cals that hold this view.

Please stop insulting me.

It's not an insult, you brought out the one angle they (you) think explains Paul's straight forward explanation of Romans 7 that does enormous damage to Augustinianism if taken the way Paul intended for it to be taken.

 

[Iconoclast]

eccl7, james 1 romans 7....do not adress the issue at hand. they are describing sin of all mankind in the course of a lifetime...not its origin...

once again In Adam all sinned...all died.....if you get that wrong ...you will get all the verses wrong...because you are not looking where God's word points to.

 

[convicted1]

Baloney. Here is John Wesley's commentary:

John Wesley was an Arminian.



Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

No. We are not under the curse of sin. We have been freed from it. Our bodies will die, but our spirit is freed from the curse and our bodies will be redeemed at the resurrection.

See? I told you you were going reformed!! That's one of their catch phrases!! :laugh::wavey::love2:

J/K Sissy!! Even if you do go reformed, I'll still call you Sissy!! It'll be RSissy then....

 

[convicted1]

I think the story of the prodigal is speaking of God's redemption of mankind, not an individual. Mankind (Adam) was once pure, but no longer is and must be redeemed.

I believe this to be an example of God's redeeming those who choose to believe. You can't return home, if you weren't @ home to begin with.

No I don't believe that, but you seem to be saying that when you say that one is "in Christ" at birth, but later he is lost and needs to be saved.

You may, or may not, buy this, but here goes. When we are born into this world, we are born spiritually alive. In this state, we are under God's grace. In this Grace is Jesus' blood. When a child sins, it does not know it is sinning before God, therefore God does not hold them accountable for it. Now, when the time comes that they knowingly, and willingly, sin before Him, He then accounts/imputes sin unto them, and are no longer under His grace.

Take for instance, a three year old child takes a .38 pistol and accidently shoots and kills their mother. Did they kill? Yes? Was it intentional? No. If this went to trial, would this 3 y/o be found guilty? No. Why? They didn't know the ramifications of playing with that .38 to start with. Same way I believe God sees us. It's the intent, that makes us guilty or not. An infant that lies, does so to keep from having a "warm bum-bum", and does not realize the ramifications of this sin before God Almighty.