Human State at birth?

[percho]

Baloney. Here is John Wesley's commentary:

John Wesley was an Arminian.



Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

No. We are not under the curse of sin. We have been freed from it. Our bodies will die, but our spirit is freed from the curse and our bodies will be redeemed at the resurrection.

I don't think you are right this time.

for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God; for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject [it] -- in hope, that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God; for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now. And not only [so], but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;

BTW all this groaning and travailing in pain are birth terms. Something is being born here. Is the revelation of the sons of god being spoken of as a birth?

 

[percho]

Missed the memo where he is the authority on original sin. FTR, the majority of cal's and non erroneously hold to Augustinianism, a holdover from the RCC.
...and Arminians also err.
Curse of the law is now the same as the curse of sin? Do tell how our bodies still die if we have been freed from this curse?

“And as it is appointed unto
men once to die, but after
this the judgment”

Sure sounds like the curse of death (result of sin) still reigns to me.

It does. We have been redeemed but we have not received our redemption as of yet.

By the gift of the Holy Spirit we have the hope of life because Jesus was resurrected from the dead. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

BTW we don't go get it when we die either. Jesus brings it with him for us when he returns. It is given by resurrection/instant change at his return.

In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, (until we receive our incorruptible inheritance) unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Winman]

I believe this to be an example of God's redeeming those who choose to believe. You can't return home, if you weren't @ home to begin with.

You may, or may not, buy this, but here goes. When we are born into this world, we are born spiritually alive. In this state, we are under God's grace. In this Grace is Jesus' blood. When a child sins, it does not know it is sinning before God, therefore God does not hold them accountable for it. Now, when the time comes that they knowingly, and willingly, sin before Him, He then accounts/imputes sin unto them, and are no longer under His grace.

Take for instance, a three year old child takes a .38 pistol and accidently shoots and kills their mother. Did they kill? Yes? Was it intentional? No. If this went to trial, would this 3 y/o be found guilty? No. Why? They didn't know the ramifications of playing with that .38 to start with. Same way I believe God sees us. It's the intent, that makes us guilty or not. An infant that lies, does so to keep from having a "warm bum-bum", and does not realize the ramifications of this sin before God Almighty.

Exactly. One of reasons God gave Jonah for saving Nineveh was the city had 120,000 small children in it. God said, "SHOULD not I spare Nineveh". That word "should" is very important, it means that it was JUST for God to spare these children. Why? Because they were innocents, they could not discern their right hand from their left hand. God does not hold little children accountable for sin because they are not mature enough to understand sin before him.

Jon 4:10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Notice God also mentioned cattle. Does God care about cattle? YES. God cares about and loves his creation. Cattle cannot be guilty of sin and it was God's desire to spare them.

The word "should" shows that it was just for God to spare Nineveh because there were many innocent children there who were not guilty of sin. This story is similar to when Abraham begged God to spare Sodom if there were just 10 righteous people in the city. There were not, so God destroyed the city. (Gen 18)

The scriptures never speak evil of little children, but only good. Jesus said we must be converted and become as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. I hardly believe Jesus was saying we must be converted and become wicked little sinners.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

There are many who teach babies are wicked because they cry for their mother or fuss because they are teething, or other such nonsense. This is the only way a baby can communicate, it is the way God gave them to let their parents know when something is wrong. It is not sin whatsoever. It is not sin for a little baby to want to be held by his mother, or to be changed when their diaper is soiled.

 

[revmwc]

Why such an emphasis on Adam and Eve to prove the point?

They were ummm created not physically born, correct? Correct me if I am wrong about that but I thought the bible says they were created.

If God created man as scripture says in "Our Image (the Trinity)" that would mean Adam and Eve were trichotomus beings, body soul and spirit at creation correct?

Perfect man (Adam) and the perfect woman (Eve) created from the man correct but both perfect correct?


What changed?

All humans have been physically born from that point correct?

Weren't they born after the fall?

If all have been born after the fall and we inherit the traits of our Father and mother after the fall not before the fall Correct?

Then we are all born in a sinful state and in need of salvation correct?

With the Father (Adam) created as the head then the Nature to sin and the human spirit are dominant, so that our human spirit is seperated from the Holy Spirit of God thus we are born Spiritually dead and seperated from spiritual understanding. This is Spiritual death and every human except Christ has been born Spiritually dead in tresspasses and sins. Born under the curse of Adam with the Nature of Adam to sin.

What happens at salvation? We are Spiritually born we gain Spiritual understanding and become Spiritually alive in Christ. We understand the things of the spirit which were to us foolishness as natural men.

 

[HankD]

Exactly. One of reasons God gave Jonah for saving Nineveh was the city had 120,000 small children in it. God said, "SHOULD not I spare Nineveh". That word "should" is very important, it means that it was JUST for God to spare these children. Why? Because they were innocents, they could not discern their right hand from their left hand. God does not hold little children accountable for sin because they are not mature enough to understand sin before him.

Very weak debating point, what about the multitudes of little children in the flood of Noah?

HankD

 

[webdog]

I believe this to be an example of God's redeeming those who choose to believe. You can't return home, if you weren't @ home to begin with.





You may, or may not, buy this, but here goes. When we are born into this world, we are born spiritually alive. In this state, we are under God's grace. In this Grace is Jesus' blood. When a child sins, it does not know it is sinning before God, therefore God does not hold them accountable for it. Now, when the time comes that they knowingly, and willingly, sin before Him, He then accounts/imputes sin unto them, and are no longer under His grace.

Take for instance, a three year old child takes a .38 pistol and accidently shoots and kills their mother. Did they kill? Yes? Was it intentional? No. If this went to trial, would this 3 y/o be found guilty? No. Why? They didn't know the ramifications of playing with that .38 to start with. Same way I believe God sees us. It's the intent, that makes us guilty or not. An infant that lies, does so to keep from having a "warm bum-bum", and does not realize the ramifications of this sin before God Almighty.

Right on the money :thumbs: Amazing they would have God's justice system being less than's mans. All sin is about intent...and a sinner is "one who sins". It's so simple anyone can understand it.

 

[webdog]

eccl7, james 1 romans 7....do not adress the issue at hand. they are describing sin of all mankind in the course of a lifetime...not its origin...

Except for the little inconvenient fact they show death resulting FROM sin. This truth is taught starting in the garden of Eden and is repeated throughout the Bible.

once again In Adam all sinned...all died.....if you get that wrong ...you will get all the verses wrong...because you are not looking where God's word points to.

We get Augustine's talking points. You start with the wrong presupposition as you do here, "you will get all the verses wrong", like the above.

 

[Van]

Winman seems to enjoy posting absurd arguments, redefining words, and taking things out of context, i.e. the prodigal son.

He has not answered the question, but simply repeats his mantra.

Like Calvinists, when scripture teaches his doctrine is wrong, he alters scripture rather than his doctrine.

When the son was separated from the Father, the son was dead. Now the story has the son starting out with the Father, and Winman claims this teaches we start out with the Father. Utter nonsense. If his view was correct, all those babies and infants who died before Jesus would have gone to heaven, yet Jesus says no one had ascended to heaven.
Those united with Christ, when they die, they are present with the Lord, how come all those children from Abel onward had not gone to heaven? No answer will be forthcoming. Winman's view is fiction and inconsistent with scripture in passage after passage.

In summary, he posts we are born upright, and no one disputes this, but he defines upright as not being separated from God, a work of fiction. We are born without having committed any volitional sins, just as Romans 9:11 teaches. But we were made sinners and condemned, and no condemned person is united with God.

And the whole effort to rewrite scripture seems to be to make an argument from silence, that those who die before they volitionally sin go to heaven. The truth is every baby is condemned at conception, separated from God and therefore spiritually dead. How God treats them is not stated in scripture. But to make something up, to add to scripture is wrong.

 

[webdog]

When the son was separated from the Father, the son was dead. Now the story has the son starting out with the Father, and Winman claims this teaches we start out with the Father. Utter nonsense. If his view was correct, all those babies and infants who died before Jesus would have gone to heaven, yet Jesus says no one had ascended to heaven.

So please tell us where every righteous person who died prior to Christ went, along with your quoting of Jesus in context?

Those united with Christ, when they die, they are present with the Lord, how come all those children from Abel onward had not gone to heaven? No answer will be forthcoming. Winman's view is fiction and inconsistent with scripture in passage after passage.

YOU say they didn't go to be with the Lord. There's fiction here alright!

In summary, he posts we are born upright, and no one disputes this, but he defines upright as not being separated from God, a work of fiction. We are born without having committed any volitional sins, just as Romans 9:11 teaches. But we were made sinners and condemned, and no condemned person is united with God.

And here is the crux of Augustinianism...all children, infants, fetuse, zygotes, MR/DD perish and suffer for eternity for the crime of being conceived. That's justice

 

[Van]

[personal attack edited]

Abraham's bosom is where the OT saints went, but they gained approval through faith.

I provided scripture, but you provided an argument from silence.

Scripture does not say any child who dies in unbelief before they know their right hand from their left, suffers for eternity for the crime of being conceived. Why invent such a doctrine except to drive people away from Christ.

I stick with what scripture actually says. Why not you?

 

[webdog]

Hi Webdog, any wing-nut can claim something is taken out of context, that is the party line of all Calvinists when scripture contradicts their doctrine.

Can you just address the topic and leave the insults out please?

Abraham's bosom is where the OT saints went, but they gained approval through faith.

Let's talk about fiction. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"

I provided scripture, but you provided an argument from silence.

Where? What Scripture cements this mysterious place labeled by many "Abraham's bosom"?

Scripture does not say any child who dies in unbelief before they know their right hand from their left, suffers for eternity for the crime of being conceived. Why invent such a doctrine except to drive people away from Christ.

I stick with what scripture actually says. Why not you?

Scripture states spiritually dead people ONLY are saved from punishment THROUGH faith in Christ. Either you believe...

A. That a fetus can exhibit faith.
B. They are saved in some manner other by grace through faith
C. They perish

Which is it?

 

[revmwc]

So please tell us where every righteous person who died prior to Christ went, along with your quoting of Jesus in context?

YOU say they didn't go to be with the Lord. There's fiction here alright!
And here is the crux of Augustinianism...all children, infants, fetuse, zygotes, MR/DD perish and suffer for eternity for the crime of being conceived. That's justice

Well Jesus explained where the righteous of the O.T. went here in
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

They went to the Paradise Abode aka Abraham's Bosom, in Hades. Paul let us know where Christ went up His death in:

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Christ went to Paradise we know because of Him telling the theif in:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise

Paul says Christ descended first, then He ascended bringing captivity captive.
2 Corithians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord

as believers we are Present with the Lord in Heaven.

Peter tells us Christ also went to Hades in:
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Notice verse 19 says He (Christ) preached to the Spirits in Prison. So where was Paradise according to Jesus, Paul and Peter it was in Hades but a place called Abraham's Bosom or Paradise. It is taught by many that Christ took those souls in captivity in Hades or the lower parts of the earth as Paul put it in Ephesians 4. When Paul quoted:
Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

in Ephesians Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

this is the cleaning out of Paradise and taking those captive O.T. souls who died in Faith to Heaven when He ascended.

 

[webdog]

You do realize the AB theory is just that, right? Like the dichotomy / trichotomy debate, I see no distinction and another invention needed to make the entire house of cards remain standing.
Lots of prooftexting to arrive at AB, IMO.

 

[Amy.G]

For those that say the prodigal is a picture of the individual sinner, how do you explain the fact that he once belonged to the father, then he was dead? Apparently you believe that you lose your salvation when you sin.
Born saved, sin and lose salvation, then must be saved again. That is what you're saying.

 

[webdog]

For those that say the prodigal is a picture of the individual sinner, how do you explain the fact that he once belonged to the father, then he was dead? Apparently you believe that you lose your salvation when you sin.
Born saved, sin and lose salvation, then must be saved again. That is what you're saying.

You are confusing your terms. Salvation is what those who are dead need. Initial life given by the father is not salvation. Mankind is made in the image of God, the bearer of all life.

 

[jbh28]

For those that say the prodigal is a picture of the individual sinner, how do you explain the fact that he once belonged to the father, then he was dead? Apparently you believe that you lose your salvation when you sin.
Born saved, sin and lose salvation, then must be saved again. That is what you're saying.

correct.....

We have to remember that parables are there to teach a truth. We should look at them for that and that alone. Parables as with any analogy can be read into too much.

 

[Amy.G]

You are confusing your terms. Salvation is what those who are dead need. Initial life given by the father is not salvation. Mankind is made in the image of God, the bearer of all life.

As I've said before, we still retain much of our God likeness but that original image has been defiled by the sin of our father Adam. We inherit his image now.

You have kids. When one of them throws a tantrum because he/she didn't get that toy he wants, that is not God's image you're seeing. It's Adam's. Proof that we are fallen.

 

[webdog]

As I've said before, we still retain much of our God likeness but that original image has been defiled by the sin of our father Adam. We inherit his image now.

We inherit the curse, but the image of God remains, hence the harsh punishment ordered by God pertaining to the taking of a human life

You have kids. When one of them throws a tantrum because he/she didn't get that toy he wants, that is not God's image you're seeing. It's Adam's. Proof that we are fallen.

I agree we are fallen, and your example proves just that, but that does not equate to spiritual death. I still throw tantrums and I'm not spiritually dead. The failure to see this distinction is at the core of augustinianism.

 

[Amy.G]

I still throw tantrums and I'm not spiritually dead.

Then you should get a spanking! :laugh:

 

[webdog]

Then you should get a spanking! :laugh:

Oh, I do...God uses my wife as the paddle