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Human State at birth?
- Thread starter 12strings
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Very well said Amy. The one thing we do know about babies who die in infancy is this:
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 3/7
Except a man be born; from 3/3 and just to show it applies here is what a man is at that time.
the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, Rev12/4,5
And no I do not believe they all go to hell either. Is it about dying and going or the status of resurrection? see Luke20/36
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Scripture seems fairly clear. David who was a believer unless you think he went to Hell for his adultry with Bathsheba made it clear where a child go who dies as an infant.
2 Samuel 12:23But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
David was very clear here he would die one day and go to where the child was. So either David was going to hell or the child was going paradise. By the inspiration of the Holy Spirit God always gives us the answer.
This is where Peter said David was on the day of Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus the Christ.
Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
This is what David considered the above meant concerning his soul and body.
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. BTW Acts 13:36 tells us David saw corruption.
Peter also tells us in A2/30,31 that David as a prophet was speaking of one of the fruit of his loins, the Christ. That the soul of Christ would not be left in hell nor his flesh see corruption, because of the resurrection.
The conclusion of the matter being even today, the soul of David must still be in hell and he has seen corruption. Actually nothing here is said about his infant son however David did say he would go to him but the son would not return to him.
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Wow what a mis-interpretation of the verse. David was physically in the grave as was Abraham and Issac even Samuel all in the grave in Jesus day and Peter's day. The ressurection had yet to occur. Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Yet the writer of Hebrews list David in the Heros of Faith, meaning David was a believer and is today in Heaven with Christ. Christ Himself it is said descended first
Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
When did Christ descend? At death and what were His words to the thief on the Cross?
Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise
Paradise must have been in Hades the Paradise abode (Abrahams Bosom).
At some point Christ took those souls to heavne and Davids and that childs would have been with them.
Jesus showed this to be the case here in:
Luke 16: 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
There was a great gulf fixed between the two abodes the torments abode and the Paradise aboded aka Abraham's Bosom. That is where David and that child souls were.
And I still say so. Show even one verse in the Bible that says we are born dead separated from God. I have shown you scripture such as Ecc 7:29 that says we are made upright, the word "they" showing this verse is speaking of all men, and not Adam alone.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Eze 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?
I have shown more scripture right here to support that men are not born sinners and are not separated from God at birth than you can show to support we are born dead.
So again, either put up, or shut up. I speak to you like that because you OFTEN come across as arrogant and condescending to those who disagree with you. You think you know it all.
You have to say this, because I have showed Romans 9:11 probably twenty times in the past that said Esau and Jacob had done no evil in their mother's womb.
Baloney. Paul knows how to communicate what he means. He did not say he "mistakenly" thought he was alive, he said he WAS alive. He said when the commandment came that sin revived and he DIED. He didn't say he thought he died. He said the commandment brought death and SLEW ME.
You are adding to scripture. Paul did not say he "thought" he was alive, he said he was alive. If that refutes your view, too bad.
This is laughable, you ASSUME your view is correct when the scriptures clearly refute you. The prodigal son was alive, he was with his father. He left home and went out in sin. He joined himself to a citizen of that far country which I believe is speaking of Satan and becoming a child of the devil and wrath.
But when he returned, twice Jesus said he was alive AGAIN. In your view a man is born dead and could never be alive AGAIN. But Jesus said he was alive again, and I believe Jesus more than you.
Jesus also compared sinners to a shepherd who originally had 100 sheep, but one went astray and became lost. He searched and recovered it. But the sheep was originally in the flock.
Jesus also compared sinners to a woman with ten silver coins. She lost one, searched for it and recovered it. But originally the coin was not lost.
Peter said we were as sheep going astray but are now RETURNED to Jesus.
1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
You can say whatever you want, the scriptures do not support that a man is born dead in sins and separated from God. The scriptures show we are like the prodigal who was originally with the father, but then went astray and became lost. When we repent and believe we are alive AGAIN or BORN AGAIN.
This is plain as day unless you twist the scriptures to support your presuppositions.
And finally, I will repeat the question you have avoided, were we conceived "in Christ" out outside of Christ? You know the answer, yet I do not think you have posted it. Did I miss it?Please provide the link. Put up or shutup, Sir.
We were not conceived in Christ, but neither were we conceived sinners, we were made upright. A newborn who dies is not guilty of sin.
Now, I know you won't accept this, but I believe this is the elder son shown in the parable of the prodigal son. He said he never transgressed his father's commandment at any time and his father did not reprove him, in fact his father said he is "EVER WITH ME", and "all that I have is thine".
Luk 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
The father did not correct the elder son when he said he never transgressed, he said his elder son is "ever with me".
Note there is no celebration for the older son, just as Jesus said earlier there is more joy over one lost sinner who repents than ninety and nine that are righteous.
Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Babies and very small children have no need of repentance, they have never sinned. But there is greater joy over a sinner who repents.
I don't expect you to understand this as your mind is already conditioned to believe all men are born sinners, when that is not what the scriptures say at all.
You cannot show it.
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Not really, I wasn't on the computer...besides Van found it.
So what is your answer. I can't see Van's posts.
Can't close something that didn't exist. There are no loopholes in scripture.
Spiritually alive yet under the curse. Is james 1:15 true or not? Was Paul alive apart from the law or not? No wiggle room around it.
Would you agree with me that there can not be anything imperfect in heaven?
Are you going to tell me that fifty days from the resurrection of Christ when Peter speaking of the man who had lived and was king of Israel, David he was only speaking of the body of David?
Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
The soul that sins it shall die. He is both dead and buried. The soul of him was dead in Hades and the body of him was buried and had corrupted away.
You are correct, he like the others had died in faith. As in 1 Thess 4 we today who die are said to be dead in Christ or so and so died in Christ. To be in the bosom of Abraham would be to be in a covenant relationship the same as Abraham. We are in the bosom of Christ, in Christ, thus are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. To Abraham and his seed were the promises made and that seed is Christ. Abraham died in faith not having received the the promises and he still to this day hasn't received them. Only the resurrected Jesus the Christ has the promise.
Hebrews 11:39,40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
This being made perfect is relative to the resurrection from the dead see verse 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: Or as Paul said, Phil 3:11,12 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
If they are in heaven they are there as imperfect men.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Whatever or however you want to define that in bold, did that happen?
What moment in time did that take place? Was he different after this than he was say three years before this? Was the following verse for example of that in bold? Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
That's enough to ponder on, got to get ready for church.
convicted1
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Born in Adam via our flesh.
Born in Christ via redemption/salvation/santification/regeneration/justification, etc.
So when you sin, you become "out" of Christ? You lose your salvation that you had at birth? That won't work. Sorry brother.
Paul was never "apart" from the Law because he was born under the Law and its curse. When he said he "died" he means that he realized that he was a sinner and the Law proved it.
How can one be spiritually alive yet under a curse at the same time??
When we are born again, we are freed from the curse of sin. We are no longer "under" it.
convicted1
Guest
When you speak of the totality of a man/woman, there are two, flesh, and soul.
The flesh is what is made in Adam. Because of Adam's sin, the sentence death was placed upon all of us, because our flesh is in Adam.
The soul comes from God, and is placed in an imperfect body because of Adam's sin in the Garden. Now, what sin did this soul commit to cause it to be already dead spiritually(seperated from God at conception, IOW)? In this state of "not gulity", God does not hold them responsible for the sins that they commit, and not realizing they are transgressing His laws. Now, at the point when they knowingly, and willingly, commit a transgression against His laws, then He accounts/imputes their sins unto them.
Are you becoming reformed?
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