Featured Human State at birth?

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


Fairly clear Paul says death has reigend by the offense of one (Adam) those who choose to receive the abundance of grace and the gift of Righteousness shall reign in life by one Jesus Christ. God has placed Spiritual seperation on all who are born of Adam, Jesus wasn't born of Adam but through the woman, so He was able to conquer death for all who will but receive His payment. His atoning Sacrfice paid for all mankinds sin, scripture says so. Paul says in verse 17 all who receive abundance of Grace and of the gift of righteousness. God imputes righteousness to whom, those who receive it and how do they receive it as Abraham did, Abraham believed God and it (Faith) was counted unto him for righteousness. Faith brings the gift of imputed Righteousness for all those dead (Spiritually).

 

Jesus was talking about the blind faith a child has. They trust unconditionally until that trust hurts them. The baby is born in a state of spiritual seperation, they have no spiritual understanding, nor do they understand sin. They are seperated from Spiritual knowledge and that is spiritual death. Paul made it clear we have a nature in us and nature is fleshly and we have it passed from the father (Adam) to us. Again Christ had no earthly father to passson the Sin Nature thus making Him the only man born that could pay for our sins.

 

That which is born of the flesh is flesh;

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


I wonder what it is we have to be converted into?

 

Paul was not saying in vs. 14 that men between Adam and Moses died for Adam's sin because there was no written law. He had explained earlier in chapter 2 that men without the law shall die without the law.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Rom 5:13 almost seems to be a contradiction of Rom 2:12 but it is not. Rom 2:12 actually explains what Paul is saying in Rom 5:13. Even though there was no written law, men between Adam and Moses died. Why? Because they were a law unto themselves, they had the law written on their hearts, and they had conscience. Anyone can read the scriptures from Adam to Moses and know people were quite aware of what sin is, even though there was no written law.

Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

How could the men of Sodom sin if there was no law? By nature they understood that men are not to be with other men. Paul explained this as well in Romans 1.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Gen 20:9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.

Men before the written law clearly knew what sin is. And this is what Paul is saying in Romans 5:13-14.


This is confirmed when Paul says in Rom 5:14 that these men HAD NOT sinned after the similitude or likeness of Adam's sin. If Adam's sin were imputed to them this could not be said, they would be guilty of Adam's very sin.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Paul is not saying Adam's sin was imputed to men between Adam and Moses. What purpose would be the law then? No, Paul is showing these men died because they violated their own innate law written on their hearts. They had not sinned after the similitude of Adam.

In order to sin after the similitude of Adam, they would have had to specifically eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This was the only law Adam and Eve had UNTIL they gained the knowledge of good and evil.

 

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This is the crux of the matter, Paul was saying men died for the exact same reason Adam died, disobedience to God. Cain was seperated from God because of what? Killing Abel that what the last straw was but it started just as his father Adam's did with disobedience.

Genesis 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

God required an offering a sacrifice, and it had to be a blood sacrifice. Cain refused to obey God's command and that lead to Abels murder. The sin of Adam was not eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, it was the sin of disobedience of rebellion. Satan puffed up with pride rebelled against God and disobeyed Him.
The same sin we as unbelievers are or were guilty of disobeying God's command. Call upon the name of the Lord believe on Jesus for salvation and live. Reject disobey and die the second death. Spiritually when is one seperated from God? Define Spiritual seperation which is what Spiritual death is. I Spiritual death as being the natural man who doesn't receive the things of the the Spirit of God and a baby has no spiritual understanding they are Spiritually dead and continue in that state until they gain Spiritual understanding. When does one gain Spiritual understending? When they receive Christ and come out of disobedience.

 

I do not equate not having spiritual understanding as being spiritually dead. I believe being spiritually dead means to be condemned to death for sin, to be separated from God. A newborn baby is neither condemned or separated from God.

Paul said he was alive without the law once. This is speaking of being spiritually alive, because when the law came, sin revived and he died, sin slew him. Paul could hardly have been writing this when he was physically dead. So, Paul is speaking of being spiritually alive, and he is speaking of spiritually dying. He said he died when the law came.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Paul did not say he "thought" he was alive once as some falsely teach, Paul said he was alive. How could he ever be spiritually alive if all men are born spiritually dead? You can't. So obviously men are not born spiritually dead, they are not born separated from God at birth.

The prodigal son shows this very thing. He was alive, he was living in his home with his father. He left home knowingly and willingly and became lost in sin. When he repented, his father said he was "alive again" which I believe equates with being "born again".

 

Seperation from God for eternity is the Second death.
Seperated from spiritual understanding as Paul says of the natural man, 1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God..., that is Spiritual death.

Death doesn't mean an end those who die the Second Death are not at the end they are seperated from God for eternity. Death = Seperation. That is why folks hear death and think of how the physical life ends, but actually at Physical death the Soul and body and spirt are seperated and the body goes to the grave but the soul and spirit continue on just seperated from the body. Temporal Death is the believer seperated from fellowship and the filling of the spirit because the believer is walking in sin. His walk is temporarily out of God's will and therefore in a state of Temporal death.

 

Have you ever considered that little children are the first to be saved? It is a statistical fact that the vast majority of Christians get saved before they are 13 years old. I received Christ myself when I was either 10 or 11.

Little children do not have any difficulty understanding the gospel.

I am quite aware that death means separation.

Folks misunderstand 1 Cor 2:14 because this verse has been misused and abused, especially by Calvinists. The natural man can understand the gospel.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul's question demands the answer that a person receives the Holy Spirit by believeing the gospel. Therefore the natural man must be able to understand the gospel before he receives the Spirit. This is directly said in Ephesians 1:13.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Here Paul directly says a person first hears the gospel, then believes the gospel, and then afterward receives and is sealed by the Spirit. So it is obvious a natural man can understand and believe the gospel.

1 Cor 2:14 is not speaking of the gospel, it is speaking of the "deep things of God".

1 Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Natural men can understand the gospel, it is so simple a child can understand it. After a person is saved they learn the "deep things of God"

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Notice Paul said that Timothy from a child had "known" the holy scriptures, which are "able" to make him wise "unto" salvation through faith in Jesus. So a child can understand the scriptures and the gospel and then be saved.

Prov 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Notice a person first turns at God's reproof. A man can understand that he is a sinner and repent. If so, God pours out his Spirit unto that man, and then afterward gives the man spiritual knowledge. You have to turn and listen to God before you can learn from him.

So, 1 Cor 2:14 is misused and does not mean a natural person cannot understand and believe the gospel.

 

Pitchback

Hi Winman, you have not answered my question, and then you have the unmitigated gall, the unabashed timerity to tell me to put up or shut up. Fiddlesticks.

Your post is simply a deflection, I addressed upright but you did not address my view. Put up or shut up.

I have said when we are conceived we have done nothing wrong, so more deflection and refusal to address my actual position. Put up or shut up

And as I addressed in a previous thread, Paul saying he was alive simply means Paul was unaware he was dead until the Law tutored him, then he died in that he became aware he was dead in his sins. However, Paul also addresses what he had not known before it was revealed to him, that by the transgression of the one, Adam, the many were condemned.

Next, you repeat the parable of the son who was with the Father, hence alive, and then separated, hence dead, then together with the Father, hence alive again as somehow teaching we start out united with God. But this view conflicts with being condemned because of Adam, and thus the separation occurs at conception.

And finally, I will repeat the question you have avoided, were we conceived "in Christ" out outside of Christ? You know the answer, yet I do not think you have posted it. Did I miss it? Please provide the link. Put up or shutup, Sir.

 

I already answered this false dichotomy.

 

I must have missed it. Are we:

1. Born "in Christ"?

2. Born "in Adam"?

3. Some other state? What do you call it?

 

Little Children come because their heads haven't been filled with the Trash the world teaches. Ever trustful. Yet how many times do we see these young ones throw a temper tantrum? Or how about when they curse or use obscene jestures? When they know right from wrong they become accountable for those sins, doesn't change the fact that they are in a state of Spiritual death. Adam and Eve were told one thing, don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for in that day you will surely die? As soon as they ate of it they realized they were naked and made clothes out of fig leafs amazing they realized right from wrong as soon as they ate of that tree. Jesus comes walking in the Garden of course called God and ask where they were, they were hiding from God because they were ashamed of their disobedience. While in innocence as a child is in innocence they were safe, but when they received knowledge of good and evil they became accountable.
The child is in a state of spiritual seperation from God (Spiritual Death) but is not accountable until they come to place of knowing right from wrong. They have in them the nature to sin and they do sin everyday, but until they come to the place of the knowledge of good and evil they are in innocence.
I have coached Special Olympics and been around these special folks. They too use bad language, they act like the world, but many of them will never reach that point of accountability because of their learning capacity and understanding, doesn't change the fact that they have a sin nature and that they are Spiritually dead (seperated from spiritual knowledge), they are but they aren't accountable for them. Those who reach the point of the knowledge of good and evil, right from wrong become accountable to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and call on Him for salvation.

 

Bump.................

 

What other option is there besides in Christ or outside of Christ?

 

Apparently this is a difficult question. :laugh:

 

Reply to Webdog,

1) One is in Christ upon faith. Wrong, one is in Christ upon God crediting our faith as righteousness and then spiritually placing us in Christ. But if you are acknowledging one is not "in Christ" at conception, I agree with you.

2)meaning it would be a spiritually dead person needing to be in Christ. Yes, at conception we are spiritually dead and needing to be put in Christ.

3) If they are spiritually dead upon conception the ONLY way to salvation is via this means per God's decree. If this means the only way to salvation is through faith in Christ, then that is correct.

4)The only alternative is every child and infant born who dies in such a state is spiritually separated from God for eternity. Yes, this is the logical necessity of being condemned at conception, and saved through faith in Christ.

5) Christ's death defeated the sin and the curse, which an infant falls under, but they are separated from God the same way Adam was, by consciously violating His law Folks, you see how hard it is to understand this post. Now webdog says we are not separated from God at conception, and the separation occurs with the first volitional sin. Wrong. A condemned person could not be together with God.

But the heart of the objection was revealed, webdog is unwilling to accept that babies and infants and those who die before they know their right hand from their left spend eternity separated from God. And so, because this seems unfair, they object to being made sinners and condemned for unbelief as written in the inspired scriptures.

 

I think most of us would disagree with you that babies who die in infancy go to hell. There is no scripture to support that.

 

Scripture does not clearly reveal what happens to those who die early, before they have done anything good or bad. But we know they will receive perfect justice from a loving God. No need to alter scripture to answer this unknown.

Amy G. you are welcome but unwise to disagree with scripture, everyone is condemned through the transgression of the one until saved through faith in Christ. This view is well supported in scripture. Your loophole is no more valid than Webdog's whatever it may be.

 

And yet you did when you said:

"webdog is unwilling to accept that babies and infants and those who die before they know their right hand from their left spend eternity separated from God."