Husbands, Love your Wives

[rbell]

I think we should carefully unpack the words used. The "submit" Paul uses in Ephesians 5 is a different word than the "obey" he uses in 6:1. Why is that? It's worth discussing...I feel very safe in saying that the nature of the obedience is different...otherwise, Paul would have used the same word, and he didn't.

Submit: greek hupostasso (Ephesians 5:22)
1) to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one's self
4) to submit to one's control
5) to yield to one's admonition or advice 6) to obey, be subject
++++
A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden".

Obey: greek hupakouo (Ephesians 6:1)

1) to listen, to harken
a) of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)
2) to harken to a command a) to obey, be obedient to, submit to

thoughts? Or is it just gas on the fire?

 

[Predestined]

I've always believed we "conveniently" overlook that verse also.

My understanding, based on watching a Godly father and mother practice biblical marriage for 47 years, is that....

• A husband is to surrender himself to the marriage by imitating the love of Christ. That is, by sacrificing his daily life for the sole purpose the edification of his wife. And this has absolutely nothing to do with bringing home a paycheck. It has to do with making himself so obedient to God in word, deed, thought, action, and inner motivation....a man so prostrate in submission before God that his daily and routine existence beckons for his wife to follow him. And she gladly grasps his hand and goes where he goes....in every sense of the word. And thereby, they live their life, as one flesh, in harmony with each other and harmony with God.
• A wife is to surrender herself to the marriage by imitating the church. That is, by being in such complete reverence for her husband and having such absolute respect for him that she deems him as absolutely trustworthy and deserving of her trust. This has absolutely nothing to do with washing his underwear nor being made to stay at home. She should be at a place of total trust in God to the point that she find her husband so trustworthy that she places her life in his hands. Not for him to control her, but to exalt her to a place of Godliness.

His sacrifice of his own self for the marriage's sake and his love for her exalts her.

Her denial of her own self for the marriage's sake and her reverence for him exalts him.

Both are humble before God and before each other. Each are exalted by the other.

Unfortunately, we have turned the loving headship of a husband into a picture of a power mogul whose only responsibility is to put a paycheck on the table and to make and enforce all of the "rules". And instead of a place of honor....well, command central.

And we have relagated the wife's call of reverence of her husband into a very long and endless list of menial household chores and childcare and we have made her someone who has no responsibility in the marriage, only a cold duty and instead of a place of honor, a place of.....well, a "place".

Nicely put........that's the way I understand it also.

 

[tinytim]

I've always believed we "conveniently" overlook that verse also.

My understanding, based on watching a Godly father and mother practice biblical marriage for 47 years, is that....

• A husband is to surrender himself to the marriage by imitating the love of Christ. That is, by sacrificing his daily life for the sole purpose the edification of his wife. And this has absolutely nothing to do with bringing home a paycheck. It has to do with making himself so obedient to God in word, deed, thought, action, and inner motivation....a man so prostrate in submission before God that his daily and routine existence beckons for his wife to follow him. And she gladly grasps his hand and goes where he goes....in every sense of the word. And thereby, they live their life, as one flesh, in harmony with each other and harmony with God.
• A wife is to surrender herself to the marriage by imitating the church. That is, by being in such complete reverence for her husband and having such absolute respect for him that she deems him as absolutely trustworthy and deserving of her trust. This has absolutely nothing to do with washing his underwear nor being made to stay at home. She should be at a place of total trust in God to the point that she find her husband so trustworthy that she places her life in his hands. Not for him to control her, but to exalt her to a place of Godliness.

His sacrifice of his own self for the marriage's sake and his love for her exalts her.

Her denial of her own self for the marriage's sake and her reverence for him exalts him.

Both are humble before God and before each other. Each are exalted by the other.

Unfortunately, we have turned the loving headship of a husband into a picture of a power mogul whose only responsibility is to put a paycheck on the table and to make and enforce all of the "rules". And instead of a place of honor....well, command central.

And we have relagated the wife's call of reverence of her husband into a very long and endless list of menial household chores and childcare and we have made her someone who has no responsibility in the marriage, only a cold duty and instead of a place of honor, a place of.....well, a "place".

Exactly... see we can learn from a woman!!:laugh:

Oh, did I say that?

 

[Aaron]

No conditions. No prid pro quos.

The man is commanded to love his wife, though she may be insubmissive.

The woman is commanded to obey her husband, even if he isn't loving.

Here endeth the lesson.

 

[Raindrop]

Go, TinyTim!!!

Heh, the bible does say wives are to respect their husbands. This is most important.

 

[tinytim]

No conditions. No prid pro quos.

The man is commanded to love his wife, though she may be insubmissive.

The woman is commanded to obey her husband, even if he isn't loving.

Here endeth the lesson.

Not so fast professor!!!
I have a question...

Case scenario:
An unloving husband beats his wife, and then commands her to not tell anyone, what should she do?

Case Scenario: An unloving husband decides he wants another woman in bed with his wife, he tells his wife that this is how it is going to be.... What should she do?

Furthermore, when you use the word "obey" is that with the same definition that children should "obey" their parents?

 

[rbell]

Not so fast professor...Furthermore, when you use the word "obey" is that with the same definition that children should "obey" their parents?

See my post above.

Those are two different greek words. If it means exactly the same thing, then why would Paul use different words, especially within the same letter, just a few verses removed from each other?

Carry on...

 

[Aaron]

Case scenario:
An unloving husband beats his wife, and then commands her to not tell anyone, what should she do?

Case Scenario: An unloving husband decides he wants another woman in bed with his wife, he tells his wife that this is how it is going to be.... What should she do?

*sigh* Okay, I guess I'm compelled to post what would be a needless disclaimer if all parties of this conversation were thinking rationally, or not attempting to redefine submission, obedience (I don't mean you, rbell) and/or the gender roles of the family.

Now, I don't think you're irrational, and I know you don't think I really meant that anyone should obey a command to be immoral or, that anyone in a time of peace should remain in a perilous situation. "We must obey God rather than man" applies to everyone. You and I know that.

What I do think you're doing is trying to take exceptions that apply only to extreme situations and use them to rationalize the normal, everyday sin of an independent, self-willed spirit that all those under authority tend to display. Almost every time the subject of a woman's role and duty in marriage is discussed, someone will try to mitigate those commands by saying that the man is commanded to love his wife. They want to put conditions on the command to the woman and say that before she must obey, the man must be doing certain things. More than that, they try to make the command to mean that the man must be obedient to the woman. Hence your use of Eph. 5:21.

The interesting thing is, that you almost never hear the reciprocal when the command for a man to love a woman is being discussed. I find it very telling that though in my post I put the same onus on the command to the man as I did on the command to the woman, you did not list any situations where a man may justly abdicate his duty to the woman.

But God's commands aren't conditional. The woman is to obey, and the man is to love, reciprocity not withstanding.

Furthermore, when you use the word "obey" is that with the same definition that children should "obey" their parents?

It's with the same definition that a Christian should obey Christ.

 

[Scarlett O.]

It's with the same definition that a Christian should obey Christ.

I agree you, Aaron.

Let me further add that christians obey Christ willingly. They have a choice. They obey Him because He loves them and sacrificed Himself for them. His "commands" to the church are for the glory of God and edification of the church, never Himself.

And His "commands" to the church while he was on this earth were never for His personal gain nor comfort.

He never asked the church or individual christians to bear His burdens or carry His loads. He did ask them to take His yoke, but with Him, not for Him. He never took advantage of the church's requirment for obedience. His entire ministry on this earth was for the church.

He gave up, literally everything......his place of exaltation in Heaven, food, water, sleep, a bed, and comforts of home. Being the foundation of the individual christian and the church took a heavy toll on Jesus' friendships and family relationships. He was hated, despised, spit on, and rejected by the very people who should have accepted him.

He sweat drops of blood, cried, and worried about his mother so much that he couldn't get her comforts off of his mind even while on the cross.

He had to endure being misunderstood over and over again and finally gave his life, literally, for the church.

One of the last times that Jesus was with His disciples he humbled Himself before them and washed their feet. And he said that He could no long call them "servants" because servants don't know everything about their masters. And because He has shared with them every essence of His being and every word that God the Father had told him that He must now call them friends.

Jesus called the church His friend. The bible calls us co-heirs with Christ. The obedience that the church gives in response to that is not the obedience of a hired worker who has no choice in the matter but to obey or receive no wages. That type of obedience is not genuine. It's task-oriented. It's all based on a job description. It can turn into disobedience in a matter of seconds if the master is away or treats the workers with disrespect.

The church's obedience is of the heart. An obedience that comes from a love of Christ and it is an obedience that exalts the church into Jesus' arms and God's presence.

Aaron, I said all of that to say this. Many women struggle with obedience daily. Daily.

And not because they are self-centered, although some are. The inward battle of many wives isn't grounded in anger, although that's many times how it is manifested.

Most struggle out of fear. Fear that they are not loved the way that Christ loved the church. Fear that their task-oriented obedience to their husbands isn't good enough. Fear that that their daily routine of menial labor makes them menial in the eyes of their husbands.

That's why christian women sometimes give the appearance of "bucking the system".

It isn't the bearing the yoke with the husband the same way that the church bears Christ's yoke that frightens christian women into disobedience.

It's the fear of letting go and allowing yourself to be loved by a man who may or may not love you the way that Christ loved the church. Trusting a man that much takes deep, deep courage on a woman's part.

And with the world's message that women have to look perfect, have perfect performances on the job, keep spotless houses, bear beautiful and perfect children, and be that proverbial superwoman only magnifies the task-oriented obedience. And if you fall in love with a man who loves you very much, but not as Christ loved the church, then the fears arise that no matter how well you perform that daily grind, it will never be enough to earn his affection.

So, yes. A christian women is to obey her husand. But performing daily tasks that do need to get done isn't the manifestation of that. And that's what we erroneouly have told women that obedience is.

And, yes. A christian man is to love his wife the way that Christ loved the church. But being her supervisor that periodically rates her job performance and who, many times with great affection, deems her as being very satisfactory to him isn't the manifestation of love. And that's what we unfortunately have told men that loving authority is.

And you may not want to hear this and you may not agree, but christian wives would be in a much better place of respect and obedience if they were secure in the Christ-like, sacrifical love of their husbands. That is, knowing that they were priceless beyond measure, not for the cooking, cleaning, constant dieting, and child-rearing, but for who they are, exactly as they are with nothing to offer but a willingness to bear the yoke with the man that they love.

 

[Helen]

Great post, Scarlett. I absolutely agree.

 

[tinytim]

I agree too Scarlett...
And Aaron, I think that we agree too.
I realized that the one example was extreme that I gave above, but the other one wasn't.

There are thousands of women that are being abused by their husbands.
This is not an extreme case, it happens everyday.
And then the husbands command their silence.

Before I agreed with you whole heartidly, I just wanted to make sure that you didn't advocate this type of submission.

Which you appear not to.

 

[TaterTot]

Wow, scarlett beautifully said. We do want to be loved and cherished for who we are. The whole cycle reciprocates itself, I think, when it is done the way intended.

 

[Aaron]

Let me further add that christians obey Christ willingly. They have a choice. They obey Him because He loves them and sacrificed Himself for them. His "commands" to the church are for the glory of God and edification of the church, never Himself....but christian wives would be in a much better place of respect and obedience if they were secure in the Christ-like, sacrifical love of their husbands. That is, knowing that they were priceless beyond measure, not for the cooking, cleaning, constant dieting, and child-rearing, but for who they are, exactly as they are with nothing to offer but a willingness to bear the yoke with the man that they love.

Your post summed up is simply this, if men were as perfect as Christ, women would find it easier to obey them.

The problem is that isn't true. (Not only that, you've raised an unattainable standard of faultless perfection, the slightest infraction of which justifies in the minds of many their disobedience and self-will.) All people everywhere find it difficult to trust and obey God, and what loutish behavior has He been guilty of lately? You see, the real problem with obedience isn't that one finds herself married to a jerk, the real problem is a sinful heart.

And the lack of trust? It really isn't the man that isn't trusted, it's God. Who was it that commanded the woman to be subject to her husband? God did, and if a woman can't do that, it's not because she can't trust the man, it's because she can't trust the God who gave her that command, and who gave her the man to whom she must submit.

 

[tinytim]

Aaron, in your mind, what constitutes a woman not being in subjection to her husband?

Does she have to agree 100% of the time with him?
If he says he wants chicken for dinner, and she fixes turkey, is she sinning?

Marriage is a beautiful thing when both love each other enough to sacrifice for each other. I think that is what submitting to each other really means. The man should be willing to sacrifice his wants for the woman, and the woman should be willing to sacrifice her wants for the man.

Neither should be bossy.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Your post summed up is simply this, if men were as perfect as Christ, women would find it easier to obey them.

:BangHead:

No, Aaron. That is not a summary of what I said. I never said that men had to be perfect. I don't believe in perfect husband nor perfect wives. And husbands and wives who expect that out of each other are set up for disappointment.

The problem is that isn't true. (Not only that, you've raised an unattainable standard of faultless perfection, the slightest infraction of which justifies in the minds of many their disobedience and self-will.)

I never advocated an unattainable standard. I never said that women, due to their self-will, should feel free to disobey if a man isn't faultless.

I am grieved beyond words that you totally misunderstood me.

All people everywhere find it difficult to trust and obey God, and what loutish behavior has He been guilty of lately? You see, the real problem with obedience isn't that one finds herself married to a jerk, the real problem is a sinful heart.

I never called husbands names. I don't believe that I used the word jerk or lout.

This thread was supposed to be about what it means for a husband to love his wife. I tried to answer the question by looking at who Christ was and what exactly did he do for the church. But as always here on BB, discussions on marriage always turn to wifely submission.

I was simply trying to explain why wives struggle in this area based on my thoughts about the original question.

And the lack of trust? It really isn't the man that isn't trusted, it's God. Who was it that commanded the woman to be subject to her husband? God did, and if a woman can't do that, it's not because she can't trust the man, it's because she can't trust the God who gave her that command, and who gave her the man to whom she must submit.

It's this attitude that frightens women and creates insecurity in the wife. This "forced" submission based on the punishment for women found in Genesis. Women were punished in the book of Genesis. Subjection is punitive. We will have to bear that always. As wives and as mothers, sisters, companions, colleagues, and citizens. It can't be changed. Once God handed down that edict, man rose up over her and she became subjected to him. It's a man's world.

But when marriage, in the New Testament, is described as a relationship between Christ and the Church, the consequences of sin do not change. Women will still bear Eve's punishment, but the marriage should be a haven of safety and security for her. Just as Christ is the "cleft of the rock" for the church, the husband should be the lighthouse of hope and security for the wife.

A man who loves his wife the way that Christ loves the church will do as Christ did for the church.

Christ bore her shame.
He bore her sorrows.
He, by His devotion to her, made her presentable unto God.

Yes, for a man to love his wife the way that Christ loved the church is a very daunting responsibility. My heart goes out to men who struggle with modeling Christ and Christ's life.

They don't have to be perfect. The just need to make sure that in their loving their wives that their hearts are set on making their wives feel cleansed, secure, worthy beyond all measure, and finding their joy in their husband.

It's an awsome task.

They lead because women were punished by God. They love because women were cherished by God.

 

[Amy.G]

Here's my 2 cents for what it's worth. I think God gave us each specific commands based on our needs as He created us. In my 29 years of marriage, I have learned that a man needs respect from his wife and perceives it as love. A woman needs to feel loved and special. Husbands and wives have different needs and we each need to be sensitive to these needs. This is how we show our love for one another and why God gave different commands to husbands and wives.

 

[donnA]

Here's my 2 cents for what it's worth. I think God gave us each specific commands based on our needs as He created us. In my 29 years of marriage, I have learned that a man needs respect from his wife and perceives it as love. A woman needs to feel loved and special. Husbands and wives have different needs and we each need to be sensitive to these needs. This is how we show our love for one another and why God gave different commands to husbands and wives.

:thumbs: :thumbs:

 

[Aaron]

No, Aaron. That is not a summary of what I said.

Oh c'mon! That's exactly what you said. And I quote..."It's the fear of letting go and allowing yourself to be loved by a man who may or may not love you the way that Christ loved the church. Trusting a man that much takes deep, deep courage on a woman's part."

In other words, it would be so much easier if the woman had assurrance that her husband was a Prince Charming. But she's not supposed to trust a man. She's supposed to trust the God who gave her the command, to believe that He knows what He's doing, and can fulfill the promise He gave in 1 Pet. 3:1.

 

[Aaron]

Aaron, in your mind, what constitutes a woman not being in subjection to her husband?

Does she have to agree 100% of the time with him?
If he says he wants chicken for dinner, and she fixes turkey, is she sinning?

Marriage is a beautiful thing when both love each other enough to sacrifice for each other. I think that is what submitting to each other really means. The man should be willing to sacrifice his wants for the woman, and the woman should be willing to sacrifice her wants for the man.

Neither should be bossy.

Why? Is fixing turkey less work? You judge. What does the Scripture say?

 

[Helen]

Aaron, you seem to consider yourself the boss and your wife the servant. That is an insult to her and to the God who created her.

A marriage is meant to be a team -- the two become one. Differences of opinions, when minor, are nothing to worry about. When major, are matters for prayer, so God can let you know which way to go.

Jesus said He did nothing apart from obedience to the Father. Men need to be that way, too. So do women. If both are obeying the Holy Spirit, then there will not be a problem with 'submission', for they are both submitting to God first and then, in caring for each other, to each other.