Husbands, Love your Wives

[Helen]

Let me give a real life example of something a number of wives are faced with.

The husband professes Christianity, goes to church and Bible studies, etc. So we are not dealing with a non-believer (although whether or not he is saved is not part of this discussion).

He works for himself, basically, or is in a position to be able to do side jobs. One way or another, he has been able to work for a significant amount of cash, and does not want to report it on his income tax. His wife is aware of his plans to be deceptive regarding his income.

She asks him not to do it. He refuses her advice and request and then presents the deceitful form for her to sign.

Does she obey him or the law?

This is not an imaginary story, by the way...

 

[Scarlett O.]

Oh c'mon! That's exactly what you said. And I quote..."It's the fear of letting go and allowing yourself to be loved by a man who may or may not love you the way that Christ loved the church. Trusting a man that much takes deep, deep courage on a woman's part."

Well, at least you quoted me correctly, even though you have misconstrued my meaning.

In other words,....

No, Aaron. In your words.

....it would be so much easier if the woman had assurrance that her husband was a Prince Charming.

:saint: I haven't believed in Prince Charming since I was about 25 years old. Who wants Prince Charming for a husband? He's a cartoon! He isn't real. And even if he were, what does he have to offer except for good looks and a crummy castle. Good looks fade and the castle is damp and has no central heat!

Seriously though, what was it in my description of a Godly husband that made you think that I was talking about Prince Charming?

But she's not supposed to trust a man.

I couldn't marry a man that I couldn't trust.

She's supposed to trust the God who gave her the command, to believe that He knows what He's doing, and can fulfill the promise He gave in 1 Pet. 3:1.

Since you disagree with my description of a Godly husband, I would like to know your description of the role of a Godly husband. That is the original question of this thread.

 

[Aaron]

Let me give a real life example of something a number of wives are faced with.

The husband professes Christianity, goes to church and Bible studies, etc. So we are not dealing with a non-believer (although whether or not he is saved is not part of this discussion).

He works for himself, basically, or is in a position to be able to do side jobs. One way or another, he has been able to work for a significant amount of cash, and does not want to report it on his income tax. His wife is aware of his plans to be deceptive regarding his income.

She asks him not to do it. He refuses her advice and request and then presents the deceitful form for her to sign.

Does she obey him or the law?

This is not an imaginary story, by the way...

I've already answered this question in a reply to Tim. You haven't been paying attention.

Tim, based on what I've told you, how do you think I would advise this woman?

 

[Aaron]

[/color]

Since you disagree with my description of a Godly husband, I would like to know your description of the role of a Godly husband. That is the original question of this thread.

No, I absolutely agree with your description of a godly husband. I disagree with your assertion that it would be any easier for you to submit to him, and I disagree with it being presented as a condition for submission.

 

[Aaron]

[/color]


I couldn't marry a man that I couldn't trust.

Of course you should not marry a man of ignoble character, however, the arm of flesh will fail you. Your trust and faith should be in God, who will never fail, leave or forsake you. If one trusts God, she will have no fear in obeying His commands, no matter the failures of her husband.

 

[Helen]

Aaron, I did not see you answer that scenario, and I looked back and still did not see it. I was in that position in a previous marriage. I was speaking from my own experience. It is not an uncommon situation, by the way. I am certainly not the only wife who has ever found herself in that EXACT situation. And it is not as rare as we would like to think, either.

What do you think I should have done?

If I signed, and we were audited, I could have gone to jail.

If I refused to sign, I would be disobeying my husband and not only that, but have an infuriated husband.

Which way would you have advised?

 

[tinytim]

No conditions. No prid pro quos.

The man is commanded to love his wife, though she may be insubmissive.

The woman is commanded to obey her husband, even if he isn't loving.

Here endeth the lesson.

Helen, I believe he should stand by his previous post.
He seems to live in a world of black and white, where there is no room for grey.

 

[Aaron]

Tim must not have been paying attention either. Reread post #28.

 

[Aaron]

Helen, I believe he should stand by his previous post.
He seems to live in a world of black and white, where there is no room for grey.

And I do stand by that post. Absolutely. Everything is black or white, right or wrong, good or evil. Grey is only a blurry view.

 

[Helen]

Aaron, dear teacher to whom we evidently were not paying attention, here is what you wrote in that post:

What I do think you're doing is trying to take exceptions that apply only to extreme situations and use them to rationalize the normal, everyday sin of an independent, self-willed spirit that all those under authority tend to display. Almost every time the subject of a woman's role and duty in marriage is discussed, someone will try to mitigate those commands by saying that the man is commanded to love his wife. They want to put conditions on the command to the woman and say that before she must obey, the man must be doing certain things. More than that, they try to make the command to mean that the man must be obedient to the woman. Hence your use of Eph. 5:21.

The interesting thing is, that you almost never hear the reciprocal when the command for a man to love a woman is being discussed. I find it very telling that though in my post I put the same onus on the command to the man as I did on the command to the woman, you did not list any situations where a man may justly abdicate his duty to the woman.

But God's commands aren't conditional. The woman is to obey, and the man is to love, reciprocity not withstanding.


Now, what should I have done in the situation I described?

 

[Aaron]

I said in that post (readers will have to go to that post because Helen didn't copy the whole thing)

"We must obey God rather than man" applies to everyone.

What does God say about your situation? Hint: It may have something to do with lying.

 

[Helen]

So a wife should disobey her husband rather than lie?

 

[tinytim]

I see... I see.. I see the light.... I found what you were talking about Aaron:

From post 28, Aaron writes...

Now, I don't think you're irrational, and I know you don't think I really meant that anyone should obey a command to be immoral or, that anyone in a time of peace should remain in a perilous situation. "We must obey God rather than man" applies to everyone. You and I know that.

So based on that, I would expect Aaron to say to disobey your husband.
I was wrong before, and my apologies to Aaron, because I totally missed that statement...

 

[Aaron]

So a wife should disobey her husband rather than lie?

Do I have the kindergarten class again? How do you think I would advise this woman based on the thing's I've already stated?

 

[Helen]

Do I have the kindergarten class again? How do you think I would advise this woman based on the thing's I've already stated?

Yes, I guess you do.

OK, so I refuse to sign the document and infuriate my husband. I can go with that decision.

How far does this go, however. If he asked me to lie about something that was not illegal, but simply where the truth would cause him inconvenience or someone to look down on him, which way then?

You see, Aaron, things simply are not as clear as you would like them to be. The Bible says obedience 'in the Lord'. That makes it much easier, don't you think? Who is going to set the example for the children if the husband is misbehaving and the wife is the one trying to set the example?

There are so many marriages where the husband refuses to take the spiritual lead, or the moral lead, or the disciplinary lead....

Does the wife then fill the gap for the sake of the children's upbringing, or does she leave that gap at the top, leaving no example at all for the children?

This is a problem that exists in so MANY marriages today! Yes, I know there are many places to put the blame, but the problem still needs to be dealt with by many God-fearing, Christ-following women. I know several of them just in our own circle of friends and acquaintances. What they face on a daily basis is so hard, and to just tell them 'obey your husband no matter what' could be terribly, terribly damaging to some of these families.

What do we advise? Prayer. Tons of it. And to take the high road morally and legally no matter what, for the sake of the name of Christ.

And yes, this means that the husband must be disobeyed at times.

 

[Aaron]

Yes, I guess you do.

OK, so I refuse to sign the document and infuriate my husband. I can go with that decision.

How far does this go, however. If he asked me to lie about something that was not illegal, but simply where the truth would cause him inconvenience or someone to look down on him, which way then?

What does the legality of the situation have to with the morality of it? You simply don't lie, and then you suffer for not doing wrong if you must.

But...you don't have to reveal everything you know, either. In the case of things that are mere inconvieniences or embarrassments, why even bring them up? Direct the inquisitors to him.

It's very simple, really. Oh, I agree, it would be no picnic for you, but the appropriate response is really very simple.

But if you had confided in me during this ordeal, I would have had some questions for you. 1)Why did you marry this charlatan? 2)Was he a believer? 3)Did a parent or guardian on either side not favor this union? 4)Did you enter into this union well-advised or lightly? and the list goes on...I would probably find that you had violated a Scriptural principle or two when you hooked up with this fella. (That's a mild way of saying that you disobeyed God.) And then when one begins to reap what she sows, she wants God to somehow mitigate His commands concerning her responsiblity to him. But He won't. He won't be mocked.

He is, however, plentiful in mercy and is willing to forgive. So I would have started with repentance on your part, a resolution to obey God in submitting to your husband in all things that do not violate a clear command in the Scriptures, and we'd work from there.

The Bible says obedience 'in the Lord'. That makes it much easier, don't you think?

No, I don't think it makes it easy when that's properly understood. Too many people want to make that a loop-hole for the flesh. The Spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. Besides, it's spoken to children, not wives.

Who is going to set the example for the children if the husband is misbehaving and the wife is the one trying to set the example?

There are so many marriages where the husband refuses to take the spiritual lead, or the moral lead, or the disciplinary lead....

Does the wife then fill the gap for the sake of the children's upbringing, or does she leave that gap at the top, leaving no example at all for the children?

Her example is in her day-to-day life, in her meek and quiet obedience to her husband, and in her faith that God will keep His promises.

This is a problem that exists in so MANY marriages today! Yes, I know there are many places to put the blame, but the problem still needs to be dealt with by many God-fearing, Christ-following women. I know several of them just in our own circle of friends and acquaintances. What they face on a daily basis is so hard, and to just tell them 'obey your husband no matter what' could be terribly, terribly damaging to some of these families.

The problems in MANY marriages today are self-inflicted. Why did these women marry these men in the first place? Of course, you can't offer them any hope. You have no faith that God knew what He was doing when He gave the command, or that He has the power to keep his promises. What other relief can you offer but to tell them to go ahead and disobey to make it easier on themselves?

 

[tinytim]

I sure am glad my wife didn't marry Aaron....

 

[Helen]

Tim, I think Aaron has a lot to learn.

One of the primary causes for concern is when two unbelievers marry and then the wife becomes a Christian. This happens quite a bit, actually, and is a major cause of the problems I outlined above. She knows not to divorce. She still loves him, many times. She wants her children to see what a Christian is, but she also wants to follow and obey her husband.

It's a terrible bind. It can contribute to failings on the part of the wife, certainly.

I'm glad your wife got you, too! Whoever she is....grin. And I sure am totally glad Barry married me! After some of what I've seen here and other places, I feel totally spoiled and loved!

 

[rbell]

It's with the same definition that a Christian should obey Christ.

I disagree, in part.

A wife's submission to the husband is always contingent on the husband's request/demand not contradicting God's law. Though her attitude should be meek and Godly, there is the possibility of disobeying in order to obey a Higher Authority.

Obedience to Christ is truy unconditional, as God cannot contradict God's own law. There is no higher authority.

 

[donnA]

Since a wife's obedience is not part of the op,
I wonder, what do men think christian men should do in their day to day lives to be obedient to this command to love their wives?
And, what do women think christian men should be doing in their day to day lives to show they are obedient to this command?
Be reasonable people.

This command is one that needs much work in our lives. What do you feel is involved in this command?