Hyper-Calvinism

[JD731]

Do you assert the non biblical doctrine of prevalent Grace and common grace then?

These terms are not biblical and are red wheels.

 

[DaveXR650]

then how can you reason that the choice of God to save just a few out of the many, with only two places to go in eternity, heaven or hell, is not actually his choice to send many to hell? That thinking seems to defy logic, if you ask me.

I think you have a point. All I am saying is that I believe that God knows everything that is going to happen, along with all our contingent plans and actions. I also believe that the Holy Spirit is acting mightily and I believe decisively in every case where a person gets saved and it was according to God's plan. I also believe that in the end, for all who heard the gospel, the only reason they are not saved is that they refused to believe and chose to follow their own path rather than yield to God. If you look into this as deeply as humanly possible, you find plenty of scripture to support all this - yet, it is true that our human minds cannot reconcile this completely. The great confessions are set up like this and I would advise you that they are good and useful to use as boundaries for our belief. They will get you in trouble if you use them as boxes and allow them to over ride scriptures.

 

[JD731]

I think you have a point. All I am saying is that I believe that God knows everything that is going to happen, along with all our contingent plans and actions. I also believe that the Holy Spirit is acting mightily and I believe decisively in every case where a person gets saved and it was according to God's plan. I also believe that in the end, for all who heard the gospel, the only reason they are not saved is that they refused to believe and chose to follow their own path rather than yield to God. If you look into this as deeply as humanly possible, you find plenty of scripture to support all this - yet, it is true that our human minds cannot reconcile this completely. The great confessions are set up like this and I would advise you that they are good and useful to use as boundaries for our belief. They will get you in trouble if you use them as boxes and allow them to over ride scriptures.

I think from reading your post, Dave, that we can safely remove you from being a proponent of total depravity, as it is defined under Calvinism, and also the doctrine of pre creation election of individuals, and the sovereignty of God which produces determinism. It might be said that you are being freed from Cracker Jack religion where the prize is in the box.

Concerning what you said about the Holy Spirit, I think he is involved in indiviuals salvation inasmuch as he is involved in the word of God. Certainly he is God and he is in the world in all his Divine power but without the word he saves no one, or even convicts no one. His power is demonstarted in and through the word of God and both he and the word are said to be "living" and "life." Not only does he not save anyone independent of the word, he teaches no one without it. We live in an age when God is present in power but not seen. It is a test. God's question is; will you believe what I say? If you believe I will give you the indwelling Holy Spirit who is eternal life. So, because the word of God is quickened by the Spirit and it is received by faith in our hearts, then it can be said that we have the living word in us. Can you not see the image of God in this? It is 3-fold, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, all as one giving us life and knowledge of his wonderful and gracious and merciful person.

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Something must make it alive;

Jn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[JesusFan]

I think you have a point. All I am saying is that I believe that God knows everything that is going to happen, along with all our contingent plans and actions. I also believe that the Holy Spirit is acting mightily and I believe decisively in every case where a person gets saved and it was according to God's plan. I also believe that in the end, for all who heard the gospel, the only reason they are not saved is that they refused to believe and chose to follow their own path rather than yield to God. If you look into this as deeply as humanly possible, you find plenty of scripture to support all this - yet, it is true that our human minds cannot reconcile this completely. The great confessions are set up like this and I would advise you that they are good and useful to use as boundaries for our belief. They will get you in trouble if you use them as boxes and allow them to over ride scriptures.

All of us deserve hell, so God is EXTREMELY gracious to save any of us

 

[JesusFan]

"No one could be elect children of God without the new birth and no one could experience the new birth before the Spirit was sent to the earth and the Spirit cannot indwell men until there is an agent of cleansing the sin away, which is the blood of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.

1) I agree, now, post Christ's death on the cross, election for salvation is the transfer into Christ, the washing of regeneration (being made alive together with Christ) and after being made firm in Christ (born anew) indwelt with the Holy Spirit forever.

2) No one was born anew and indwelt until after Christ died on the cross. That is why the OT saints had to wait in "Abraham's bosom."

3) Your citation of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is spot on! God chooses individuals for salvation by setting them apart spiritual in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, based o God alone crediting or not the person's "faith in the truth" as righteousness.

King David and Prophets and Moses etc all had the Holy Spirit to fulfill their tasks and mission for God though

Does God save based upon foreknowledge or election/predestinantion?

 

[JesusFan]

All spiritual dead in Adam will have sin master over them, period, and we are sinners due to our very natures and choices

 

[JesusFan]

God has said that none are righteous because of the simple fact that all sin, because they do not have power against sin, not because they are zombies. They are natural men, as their father, Adam, simply meaning they do not have the Spirit of God in their bodies. That is what the new birth does. It makes a man spiritual.

Pardon me while I prove what I preach from the scripture;

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The image of God and of Christ is trinitarian. The new birth through faith in Christ gives us the third person of our being, the Holy Spirit to indwell us. The Spirit is not given to us because we are elected by God as his, but by believing in Christ. The triune God is involved in 3 different capacities of election. God is forming now in time the body of Christ as a corporate entity So, when a sinner believes the gospel, the Spirit is given to him as the gift of life to indwell individually and the Spirit at the same time baptizes the believer into the corporate body of Christ and God chooses him because he has chosen Christ before the foudation of the world. Men are chosen "in Christ."

Lest you think I am blowing smoke, that is clearly said about the gentiles here;

2 Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning (of this age) chosen you to salvation through sanctification (separation) of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Words have meaning and the Bible has context, men.

The same is said about the Jews in that time frame;

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Noone could be elect children of God without the new birth and no one could experience the new birth before the Spirit was sent to the earth and the Spirit cannot indwell men until there is an agent of cleansing the sin away, which is the blood of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.

What wonders Christ has done for us.

Where and how did spiritually dead sinners suddenly producing within themselves "saving grace?"

 

[JD731]

Where and how did spiritually dead sinners suddenly producing within themselves "saving grace?"

Who said they did?

 

[DaveXR650]

I think from reading your post, Dave, that we can safely remove you from being a proponent of total depravity, as it is defined under Calvinism, and also the doctrine of pre creation election of individuals, and the sovereignty of God which produces determinism. It might be said that you are being freed from Cracker Jack religion where the prize is in the box.

There is nothing that says you have to think this deep so I am not against someone who says that there is no reason that a person cannot, upon hearing the gospel, at least ask God for help. But when you really look into the problem, which is our own will, and realize that we can't come precisely because we won't come, the theology of Calvinism starts making sense.

And, I also think that from God's point of view, where he knows everything and is in the process of bringing about a plan as he wills, looking at things from that standpoint - much of the predestination makes total sense. Whether or how much we should really mess with that is a valid question. And you do end up with endless, circular reasoning. For instance, I might say that when in scripture someone says "Turn me and I shall be turned", they are admitting a deficient will and a level of depravity. To which one could reply, "Yeah, but did he not know to ask this, thus proving that he had discovered his need on his own?" And so it goes.

And I hope you do realize that not only all Calvinists, but general Baptists, and all pure Arminian theology also teaches the total inability of man even to turn to God on his own. They differ in the general availability of such grace, and whether it can be resisted, but they do realize man's depravity. You are moving into heretical Pelagian theology if you don't believe that.

Concerning what you said about the Holy Spirit, I think he is involved in indiviuals salvation inasmuch as he is involved in the word of God. Certainly he is God and he is in the world in all his Divine power but without the word he saves no one, or even convicts no one. His power is demonstarted in and through the word of God and both he and the word are said to be "living" and "life." Not only does he not save anyone independent of the word, he teaches no one without it. We live in an age when God is present in power but not seen. It is a test. God's question is; will you believe what I say? If you believe I will give you the indwelling Holy Spirit who is eternal life. So, because the word of God is quickened by the Spirit and it is received by faith in our hearts, then it can be said that we have the living word in us. Can you not see the image of God in this? It is 3-fold, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, all as one giving us life and knowledge of his wonderful and gracious and merciful person.

I think if you really look at your own statement above you will find that you are playing with definitions and trying to give the word a magical quality when you at the same time admit that it is the work of the Holy Spirit that is the source of the power. Let's be honest, the work of the Holy Spirit is essential for us to get any benefit from God's word and verses like the one about the two edged sword are simply explaining that. Without the Holy Spirit words, even scripture are just words. That's why some prominent atheists and heretics can be expert in knowledge of the word, yet it benefits them in no way.

The idea that the Holy Spirit is essential and decisive in anyone coming to Christ is a central Calvinist teaching. As well as a central teaching of regular Baptists, and Arminians. That is one glaring mistake in the Provisionism of Leighton Flowers. Even Lutheran theologians notice that.

Like I said, I'm not trying to make you a Calvinist. I don't believe in limited atonement and I think grace is resistible. But if you look into it you will find much of value, as well as some of the best work on living a Christian life as you could find anywhere. In my own little corner of the world many Baptist churches had drifted into an easy believism, with sermons centering on politics, personal health and therapeutics, or just funny stories and entertainment. Alot of churches, since the Calvinist resurgence, have moved into expositional messages expounding on portions of scripture, and serious Bible study. This is a good thing.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My initial encounter with the reformed was about 25 years ago. In my opinion, they were "hyper".

One gentleman made an announcement that his and his wife's son had been born. He said, "Let's welcome one more of God's elect."

If he believes his son was BORN saved - I can only take it to mean he believes his baby is saved because HE is saved. It left a permanent and horrid taste in my mouth.

Could it have been an Orthodox Presbyterian? So if you’re not one then the kid goes to hell?!? Don’t answer that…I’ve encountered that nonsense before.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Could it have been an Orthodox Presbyterian? So if you’re not one then the kid goes to hell?!? Don’t answer that…I’ve encountered that nonsense before.

I can't remember the denomination. I just remember that they were reformed as it was in the heading of the site.

 

[Van]

King David and Prophets and Moses etc all had the Holy Spirit to fulfill their tasks and mission for God though

Does God save based upon foreknowledge or election/predestinantion?

This poster does not seem to grasp the difference between having the influence of the Holy Spirit, and being indwelt forever with the Holy Spirit. Go figure.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly and explicitly teaches election for salvation based on faith in the truth. Foreseen faith is no where to be found.

 

[JD731]

All of us deserve hell, so God is EXTREMELY gracious to save any of us

He is not "extremely" gracious if there are 8 billion people on the earth and he chooses to save only one million, two hundred thousand Calvinists. Some times you fellows don't make sense.

 

[Hutch]

If you review on line discussions, you will find many explanations of Hyper-Calvinism.

1) They believe in exhaustive determinism, every thought and deed of humanity is predestined. Thus no need to pray, since the outcome
is unalterable.

2) Some say they do not believe in engaging in Evangelism. I think this is a false charge, the dodge is they believe God commanded Evangelism so
they engage in it, even though that does not result in "hastening the day."

3) They believe God is the author of sin, as He is the author of every thought and deed. OTOH, Calvinism teaches it is a mystery as to why this does not make God the author
of sin.

4) Another dodge is that fallen humanity is able to choose which sin or ungodly activity to engage in, so they are responsible to their choice.

It seems harsh, but some simply say Calvinism engages in euphemisms to avoid the logical consequences of their doctrine, whereas the Hyper-Calvinists simply accept them.

So the Bible Study question is:

Does the Bible teach everything is predestined, or do we make choices that alter the outcome of our lives.

My position on predestination concerning salvation is this: God predetermined the PLAN, not the PERSON.

 

[kyredneck]

My position on predestination concerning salvation is this: God predetermined the PLAN, not the PERSON.

Pronouns mean nothing to you?:

...according to the Bible, INDIVIDUALS (pronouns tell the story):

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9

 

[Silverhair]

I do not believe that John 6:45 is in contradiction of John 6:37. Nor are either of them in contradiction of John 6:44. Is that what you believe?

Those that have heard and learned are the ones that the Father gives to the Son. So no they do not contradict but rather compliment each other.