Hyper-Calvinism

[JD731]

How come you have numbered the great crowd of Revelation 7 that no one could number, and decided that is makes 1.2 million?

Exactly, Martin. How can I know the exact number? Besides, the saved people that comes out of great tribulation, that is the subject of your question, knows they have not been chosen personally before the foundation of the world to be saved. They are those who refused to identify with the Satanic government of those days by being marked with the logo that would damn them to hell and have not loved their lives unto the death and the vast majority have had their heads removed from their bodies for their stand.

But, to move into your context I do know why the number cannot be known by a man. It is because the slaughter of these saints is very great but it is on going and God has not published the exact number when he wrote the prophecy. I will underline how I know it.


7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. (a fourth part of 8 billion is 2 billion)

9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

At the end of the time, they will be resurrected.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now, I have a question for you. Why did you, who will believe nothing I wrote from the Revelation above is literal, ask me a question that assumes the passage you referenced from Revelation is literal?

 

[JD731]

I don't agree that there is no such thing as a sin nature. Granted the phrase "sin nature" is not in the English translations of the bible I have seen, but we do have words which indicate that by nature, we are sinners. For instance:

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.” (Eph 2:1-3 NKJV)

The context of the highlighted words there shows that the Ephesian Christians had been children of wrath because of sin.

David, your comments demonstrates just how long suffering and patient and good our God is. He does not require you to be right about any teaching of the Bible that is not directly related to how he will remove your sins from you and make you perfect, in his eyes, the requirement for his receiving you.

Men born of Adam are like Adam, natural men. It does not require a sin nature to be able to sin. One third of the angels sinned as well as the cherub we know now as Satan. Adam, created in the image of God sinned. He did not possess a sin nature that caused him to disobey God and go his own way. Sinning was a choice of the will by these entities.

What happened then to Adam that affects his whole race and what makes us like him after his fall? It is not a sin nature because it is not a sin to be born and sin is not in us when we are born. Sin is defined by God in a couple of ways but the biggie is that sin is the transgression of the law. Think about that a minute. It is how Adam sinned and it is how he marred the image of God in himself.

Now, I am not going to take this any farther but leave you to contemplate on it. If Adam was created perfect and was called "the son of God" (LK 3:38), what made him the son of God, and why aren't we, his offspring, sons of God, and if we can become the sons of God, how can we do it and when is it done and under what circumstance are we recognized as the sons of God? Is the goal of God to restore the image of God in man, his greatest creation , so we can have fellowship with him for eternity? The answer is yes.

What is it he promised when our wonderful Lord Jesus Christ died in our place to take away the stain of sin from us? He promised us his Spirit and that we through Christ would take on his image, which is the image of God. Jesus Christ always had the image of God because he had the Spirit of God dwelling in his body, except for those 3 hours on the cross when he died for our sins and was separated from God, like all sinners are.

1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

I hope you men are saved in spite of the fact that so many of you cannot even define salvation and the new birth and why it is necessary to become a son of God and what it is, and that your doctrines comes from the opinions of you denominational leaders whose words in their books have more impact on you than a prayerful study of the word of God and what they actually teach.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (When he comes our Adam body will be gone and we will have a body like the body of Jesus after his resurrection and our body will shine like his and all connection with Adam will be gone).

Praise our Lord God and Jesus Christ for his unspeakable gift to us.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Exactly, Martin. How can I know the exact number?

Actually, I asked you first, and all I got, once again, was a seemingly endless heap of verbiage. However, I have to admire your serene confidence (though not your overweening pride) that you have all the right answers and no one else has.
It must be very satisfying to contend that everything in Revelation is in the future, because then no one can prove you wrong, but how does that square with the fact that 'the time is near' (Revelation 1:3 etc.)?

But in fact, the 'great multitude' should not be taken to be the same as the martyrs of 6:9-11. You need to compare Scripture with Scripture. Have a look at Ezekiel 9 and compare with Rev. 7:1-3. The seals represent the events of the world from our Lord's resurrection until His return. No one can loose these seals until the ascended Christ does so.
The first seal represents Christ Himself; He wears a crown of victory (Gk. stephanos) and all through the age He will be taking a people for Himself from the possessions of Satan (c.f. Mark 3:27 etc.). But this will go on against a backdrop of wars, poverty, death and persecution, in line with what He foretold in Matthew 24:4-14. Then there is the return of Christ and Day of Judgment in vs. 12-17, and no, I don't believe that the stars of heaven will fall to earth, nor that the sky will recede like a scroll. This is figurative language (c.f. Isaiah 34:4 and elsewhere) expressing the complete destruction of the old world.
Now, who are the 144,000? It is most important to note that John does not see them yet. He hears the number of them. Now what is interesting about the number is that Dan and Ephraim are missing from the 12 tribes, but 12 tribes are still there. How does that work? Obviously it is a figurative number, but that does not mean that it is without meaning. It is a number known by God: the old covenant people (12 tribes) times the New covenant saints (12 apostles) times 1,000 meaning all that there are saved from both covenants. Why are Dan and Ephraim missing? Because they were seats of idolatry (1 Kings 12:26-30). They may represent false teachers who will not be found among the saved on the last day.
But John doesn't see this number, he only hears it. But, 'after these things I looked and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues.' These are the same people as the 144,00; the saved of all ages standing before the Lamb at the end of time. They have come out of 'great tribulation' which is the time from Christ's ascent until His return. As John sees them they are a crowd too vast for anyone to count, but God has counted them, and indeed, knows them all by name (Isaiah 43:1; 45:4).
It seems entirely possible that there will be a short time of increased tribulation right at the end of the age (11:7-10; 20:7-9), but that does not alter the fact that the whole age is a time of tribulation (John 16:33).

 

[Silverhair]

Unfortunately you have your theology back to front.
John 6:39. "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me [Perfect Tense] I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.' This is in accord with John 17:2. "As You have given Him authority over all flesh; that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given [Perfect Tense] Him."
Therefore the giving of the elect to the Son to redeem is a one-off, completed event in the past, not a continual giving as people come to faith. According to Eph. 1:4-5, this happened before the foundation of the world.
John 6:44. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day" [Note the connection between John 6:39 & 44].
John 6:45. "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore, everyone who has heard and learned of the Father comes to Me."
Therefore, those who are given by the Father to the Son in eternity, are drawn by the Father and come to the Son.

Well unless you think people were with God prior to creation then you have a problem with the biblical text.

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Can't call if you do not exist.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Can't confess or believe if you do not exist.

We are saved when we are in Christ through faith. Seems you have put the card before the horse.

You are promoting your theological view rather than scripture.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I can't remember the denomination. I just remember that they were reformed as it was in the heading of the site.

That particular denom is like dealing with Salem Puritans… I will leave it there, but I’ve never seen more anal then anything I could have possibly imagined.

 

[Van]

My position on predestination concerning salvation is this: God predetermined the PLAN, not the PERSON.

Excellent comment!!

Clearly God formulated His Redemption Plan before creation. This is supported by the fact the "Lamb of God" (our Redeemer) was known before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:20.

Thus when God chose His Redeemer individually, He chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem, thus we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

However, since we once were not a people chosen for God's own possession, we were not individually chosen until after we existed as individuals as "not a people" who had not obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10

 

[JesusFan]

Excellent comment!!

Clearly God formulated His Redemption Plan before creation. This is supported by the fact the "Lamb of God" (our Redeemer) was known before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:20.

Thus when God chose His Redeemer individually, He chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem, thus we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

However, since we once were not a people chosen for God's own possession, we were not individually chosen until after we existed as individuals as "not a people" who had not obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10

The father predestined Lord Jesus to be the Lamb of God, and all of the chosen and elect in Him shall be saved in the end, remnant chosen out beforehand due to the will and purpose of God, not due to the will of man

 

[JesusFan]

This poster does not seem to grasp the difference between having the influence of the Holy Spirit, and being indwelt forever with the Holy Spirit. Go figure.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly and explicitly teaches election for salvation based on faith in the truth. Foreseen faith is no where to be found.

Saving faith is the gift from God towards His own elect and chosen in Christ Jesus

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Well unless you think people were with God prior to creation then you have a problem with the biblical text.

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Can't call if you do not exist.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Can't confess or believe if you do not exist.

We are saved when we are in Christ through faith. Seems you have put the card before the horse.

You are promoting your theological view rather than scripture.

You have surprised me several times, but I can't believe that even you are this stupid.
We are elect from eternity, but we believe and are saved in time.

 

[JesusFan]

You have surprised me several times, but I can't believe that even you are this stupid.
We are elect from eternity, but we believe and are saved in time.

From the viewpoint of the Truine God , all of the redeemed are already written down in lambs book of life, but from our viewpoint made active and true moment we received Jesus as Lord and Savior

 

[Silverhair]

You have surprised me several times, but I can't believe that even you are this stupid.
We are elect from eternity, but we believe and are saved in time.

Now Martin you are letting your emotions show. How many times have we been told on this thread that people were elect in eternity past? You just do not like it when someone points out the failed logic of your theology.

Must admit that I do find many calvinist on this board that do seem to be quite un-Christ like in their comments.

One is only elect when they are in Christ not before. God knowing who will freely trust in His son does not mean that they are elect from eternity as that would mean they are already saved are already children of God.

But lets go with your view Martin. So God elected all that would be saved and thus He condemned all those that would be in hell.

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,7 to the praise of His glorious grace;8 others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.

These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.10

This is from the LBCF CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE Paragraph 3 & 4

Now if those thus predestined to salvation are "so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished." Then it is not a matter of whether they believe or not as faith is irrelevant.

Now on the other side we see those not picked out. They are condemned before they have done anything so to say it is because of their sin is illogical in light of the LBCF statement. Again their faith or lack of is irrelevant.

But as you said and I agree we are saved in time. When we place our trust in Christ Jesus then we are of the elect we are children of God not before.

We are not chosen “to be” in Him but instead that those who have repented and believed and are now “in Him” {Christ} are promised and predestined to an inheritance, adoption, and to be holy and without blame. The choosing was for the blessings to be found in Christ, not those who would be in Christ. It is God choosing what those of us who are in Him will receive. Ephesians 1:5-14.

 

[David Lamb]

Now Martin you are letting your emotions show. How many times have we been told on this thread that people were elect in eternity past? You just do not like it when someone points out the failed logic of your theology.

Must admit that I do find many calvinist on this board that do seem to be quite un-Christ like in their comments.

In my experience on the Baptist Board, there are those in both the Calvinist and the Arminian camps you (sadly) resort to un-Christ-like comments.

One is only elect when they are in Christ not before. God knowing who will freely trust in His son does not mean that they are elect from eternity as that would mean they are already saved are already children of God.

So why did God cause Ephesians 1:4 to be in the bible?

“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,” (Eph 1:4 NKJV)

"Chose" means the same as "elect".

 

[DaveXR650]

We are elect from eternity, but we believe and are saved in time.

Scripture teaches both so I don't know why @Silverhair, you would consider this so difficult. I agree that some Calvinists tend to so camp on one aspect that they warp the gospel message. And in hyper-Calvinism, they change the statement to read "We are elect and saved from eternity, and believing amounts to a discovery that we are elect".

All that is really being stated is that when God states that something is going to happen it will most certainly happen when and in the manner he says. Calvinist theology states this and then also states that the means to get to the end involve a lot of free will choices of those involved. That's why you have bonified Calvinists saying that predestination and election are true and at the same time saying that if you are damned it is because you brought it on yourself by persistent and willful refusal to believe on Christ.

 

[Van]

If you review on line discussions, you will find many explanations of Hyper-Calvinism.

1) They believe in exhaustive determinism, every thought and deed of humanity is predestined. Thus no need to pray, since the outcome
is unalterable.

2) Some say they do not believe in engaging in Evangelism. I think this is a false charge, the dodge is they believe God commanded Evangelism so
they engage in it, even though that does not result in "hastening the day."

3) They believe God is the author of sin, as He is the author of every thought and deed. OTOH, Calvinism teaches it is a mystery as to why this does not make God the author
of sin.

4) Another dodge is that fallen humanity is able to choose which sin or ungodly activity to engage in, so they are responsible to their choice.

It seems harsh, but some simply say Calvinism engages in euphemisms to avoid the logical consequences of their doctrine, whereas the Hyper-Calvinists simply accept them.

Does the bible say some things happen by chance? Yes

Does the bible say God declares the end from the beginning, thus predestining the thing declared? Yes

In summary, God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. Pretty simple really!

 

[kyredneck]

If you review on line discussions, you will find many explanations of Hyper-Calvinism.

I'm good with Tom's 'explanation':

"Everyone to the right of me is hyper". Tom Butler

 

[JD731]

In my experience on the Baptist Board, there are those in both the Calvinist and the Arminian camps you (sadly) resort to un-Christ-like comments.

So why did God cause Ephesians 1:4 to be in the bible?

“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,” (Eph 1:4 NKJV)

"Chose" means the same as "elect".

Seventy eight times in seventy seven verses in the New Testament the term "in Christ" appears. This is an important number in God's revelation of himself and his ways. It is a number that stands for completion. I think there is no other number that God would employ in this verse because we are complete in Christ. So, the operative takeaway of this verse 1:4 is the corporate unity with our Lord Jesus Christ. God has not chosen "me" in Christ in this application but he has chosen "us" in Christ. This is an important distinction.

God has first chosen Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world but the first person ever to be chosen "in him" took place after he rose from the dead. Since the first person was baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ after the cross and resurrection. , every person who has been saved by his blood since then has been baptized by the Spirit into his body. If there were another time or place or way to be placed into Christ. this way would be nullified and made senseless.

God is doing something particular and different in this time period than he has done in any other previous time period in history, or that he will do in any future time in history. The epistle to the Ephesians gives us the full plan and explains the connection of all saved men together as one with Christ. This will continue until our Lord Jesus comes back for us as a groom comes for is bride and sweeps us away unto glory. At that time on earth a different expression of the will of God will begin that is explained in different sections of the word of God.

To fail to see these truths is an indication of spiritual blindness. We know that God is not impressed with our claims of being specially chose individually when he has not so chosen us but he is impressed when we believe what he says.

I encourage folks to honestly seek God while he may be found and to believe the words he has spoke to us.

 

[JesusFan]

Seventy eight times in seventy seven verses in the New Testament the term "in Christ" appears. This is an important number in God's revelation of himself and his ways. It is a number that stands for completion. I think there is no other number that God would employ in this verse because we are complete in Christ. So, the operative takeaway of this verse 1:4 is the corporate unity with our Lord Jesus Christ. God has not chosen "me" in Christ in this application but he has chosen "us" in Christ. This is an important distinction.

God has first chosen Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world but the first person ever to be chosen "in him" took place after he rose from the dead. Since the first person was baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ after the cross and resurrection. , every person who has been saved by his blood since then has been baptized by the Spirit into his body. If there were another time or place or way to be placed into Christ. this way would be nullified and made senseless.

God is doing something particular and different in this time period than he has done in any other previous time period in history, or that he will do in any future time in history. The epistle to the Ephesians gives us the full plan and explains the connection of all saved men together as one with Christ. This will continue until our Lord Jesus comes back for us as a groom comes for is bride and sweeps us away unto glory. At that time on earth a different expression of the will of God will begin that is explained in different sections of the word of God.

To fail to see these truths is an indication of spiritual blindness. We know that God is not impressed with our claims of being specially chose individually when he has not so chosen us but he is impressed when we believe what he says.

I encourage folks to honestly seek God while he may be found and to believe the words he has spoke to us.

old Testament saints were also saved before the cross, and the election and predestinated of God was and is on an individual basis , not some corporate election

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Now Martin you are letting your emotions show. How many times have we been told on this thread that people were elect in eternity past?

Many times. That is because it is true. What you will not find is anywhere that I have stated that people are/were saved or justified in eternity past. That is because it is not true and refuted by Isaiah 12:-12 as I have stated many times.

You just do not like it when someone points out the failed logic of your theology.

[/QUOTE]
On the contrary, it is always a good thing to have one's mistakes pointed out (Psalm 141:5). What I do not like is you suggesting that I and others do not believe the Bible. That is a lie and you have not proved otherwise in respect either of me or anyone else.

Must admit that I do find many calvinist on this board that do seem to be quite un-Christ like in their comments.

I find YOU to be un-Christlike. See above.

One is only elect when they are in Christ not before. God knowing who will freely trust in His son does not mean that they are elect from eternity as that would mean they are already saved are already children of God.

As usual, you provide no Scripture to support your view.

But lets go with your view Martin. So God elected all that would be saved and thus He condemned all those that would be in hell.

That, as you well know is not my view. I have posted any number of times 'The one who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out' (John 6:37).

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,7 to the praise of His glorious grace;8 others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.

Amen!

These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.10

This is from the LBCF CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE Paragraph 3 & 4

Amen again! It says nothing about reprobation.

Now if those thus predestined to salvation are "so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished." Then it is not a matter of whether they believe or not as faith is irrelevant.

No. Read LBCF 14 on Saving Faith.

Now on the other side we see those not picked out. They are condemned before they have done anything so to say it is because of their sin is illogical in light of the LBCF statement. Again their faith or lack of is irrelevant.

No. Read your Bible. 'There is no one who seeks after God.' There is only one two-syllable word in that sentence so I think even you should be able to understand it. The Bible also says, 'Whoever will call on the name of the Lord shall be saved' Whoever! Whoever! I know that is a three-syllable word, but surely you can understand it.
'The vilest offender who truly believes
That moment from Jesus a pardon receives.'
But if no one seeks after God; if men prefer darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil; if the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, then no one will be saved. Therefore, God, in His great mercy has elected a vast number of guilty sinners to salvation' by grace alone, through Christ alone, through faith alone according to the Scriptures (whether you like it or not) alone, to His glory alone.

But as you said and I agree we are saved in time. When we place our trust in Christ Jesus then we are of the elect we are children of God not before.

Nope. That's not what the Bible says. Jer. 31:3; Matt. 11:27; Eph. 1:4-5; 2 Thes. 2:13.

We are not chosen “to be” in Him

Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love....'

but instead that those who have repented and believed and are now “in Him” {Christ} are promised and predestined to an inheritance, adoption, and to be holy and without blame. The choosing was for the blessings to be found in Christ, not those who would be in Christ. It is God choosing what those of us who are in Him will receive. Ephesians 1:5-14.

Eviscerating the whole passage to try and make it fit your misconceptions

 

[Van]

I'm good with Tom's 'explanation':

"Everyone to the right of me is hyper". Tom Butler

Note the effort at obfuscation, avoiding any explicit definition of Hyper Calvinism. I wonder why?

 

[Van]

If God "ordains" (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, then God is the author of Sin. That would be the Hyper or Honest Calvinist position.
If God "ordains" (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, yet is not the author of the sin that comes to pass, then nonsense is being peddled, shrouded in the illusion of "mystery."