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Hyper-Calvinism
- Thread starter Van
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They were justified by faith in God but they were not cleared of their guilt.
Ex 34:6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
It takes the blood of Christ to wash away sins and he came to do that in the beginning of the 5th Millennium.
Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
It is not okay for you to be this wrong about salvation. Your teachers are leading you astray.
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
You wonder why people get so frustrated with you. You hammer on a point that you made up that I am supposed to be arguing. The problem is - I am not. Why would anyone engage with you when you do this? I'll say this one more time: when God decrees something will happen it will happen as certainly as if has already happened. But it still has to happen at the appropriate time. What you are doing is saying that because faith comes at a specific time - it cannot be said that someone will believe until they believe. That might have some merit if you or I decreed it but we are talking about a decree of God.
If God decrees you will go to a certain place in the future you will go. That does not mean that you will not use your own free will to get there. Both are true. I honestly don't know what else to say on this.
In the above statement it seems to be clearly stated that all who are condemned are acting in their own free will. Isn't that what you say is so important to you? Your real objection is that you don't like the view the Bible has of our free will. You think it is better than it actually is. That's something you'll have to work out for yourself but understand that not only Calvinists, but Arminians, and Wesleyans have the same view of our natural wills.
If you notice, in this confession, men are not ordained to do any sin or evil, the sin and evil are due to God respecting their "free wills". Now look, I read too, and I know the anti-Calvinist argument that goes something like this: To decree something positive, by definition, means that you are also decreeing the negative effect. While in a sense that is true, absolutely considering only the end result, but if you are really allowing free will creatures to continue acting according to their free will then I don't see how that logic would work as a complaint of the creature thus acting on his own. He is either acting on his own or he is not. And if he is then the negative result is on him, not God.
As we have already been over, they were not condemned because they were not of the elect. They are condemned because their free will choices, which are so important to you, are respected and they are left to do them all their lives. Scripture says why they are condemned in John 3:18 and 19. Those who are not condemned are those who believed. Those who believe are the elect. Without God's grace the one's called elect would not have believed either. We don't really know how this works. Therefore the confessions won't explain all this perfectly but they can act as guardrails to prevent us getting off track and into incorrect doctrines.
Why don't you try to write up a free will confession and see if you can make the logic match all the verses found in scripture. If you try it you will find that you cannot pray for anyone to be saved because it's up to them, there can be no prophesy because the free will alternative choices can't possibly be known yet because they might change, and God can have no revivals, no opening of hearts, no times of one group verses another having many come to Christ. I'd actually like to see that.
The cross of Christ and His sin atonement and resurrection from our viewpoint happened in time and space, but to God, always has happened, so all sinners ever saved were on by that same very basis
The OT saints from Hebrews 11:13
According to [KATA] the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen [V 1 Faith is] died these all, not obtaining the promises
At the time Jesus walked the earth they were dead according to the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.
From Gal 3 beginning at verse 23 YLT
Before the coming of the [substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen] faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the [substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen] faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by [the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen] faith we may be declared righteous, and the [substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen] faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, for ye are all sons of God through the [substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen] faith in Christ Jesus, for as many as to Christ were baptized did put on Christ;
Question
Now that the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, the faith, has come are they dead in faith of dead in Christ?
According to [KATA] the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen [V 1 Faith is] died these all, not obtaining the promises
At the time Jesus walked the earth they were dead according to the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.
From Gal 3 beginning at verse 23 YLT
Before the coming of the [substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen] faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the [substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen] faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by [the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen] faith we may be declared righteous, and the [substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen] faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, for ye are all sons of God through the [substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen] faith in Christ Jesus, for as many as to Christ were baptized did put on Christ;
Question
Now that the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, the faith, has come are they dead in faith of dead in Christ?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You wonder why I get so frustrated with cavinists. God did not decree who would be saved but how they would be saved, by being in Christ.
I agree that if God decrees something it will happen, I have no problem with that Dave. But the question is what did God decree? Are we going to go with scripture or the LBCF/WCF or even TULIP. That is the crux of the problem, calvinists want God to decree that select individuals be saved out of the mass of sinners and than complain when the logical result is pointed out that all those not selected were decreed to be condemned.
I do not understand why so many calvinist who agree with the LBCF/WCF seem to miss that point as it is right there in the text.
These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
Dave yes the LBCF makes that statement but it is in contradiction to what else they write.
I agree that men are condemned because of their free will choice to sin but what you do not want to accept is that God did not decree that a select group would be saved but that those that are saved are saved through Jesus Christ because of their free will choice to follow Him. N
NE was elect before the foundation of the world, that is just a bad reading of scripture. I have no problem with the biblical teaching on free will in fact that is what I have been trying to get you to understand. You keep saying that God has to make people trust in Him, first regeneration/born again, but that is not free will Dave. That is compulsion. Aside from the fact it is not biblical.
Yes God respects their free will to sin but He also respects their free will to trust in Him.
Those that reject God deserve to suffer the wrath of God. But the calvinist's want to have God decree one thing which cause the second thing but then you want to deny that God has caused the second thing.
We are all sinners Dave so all should be condemned but the calvinist God has chosen to save just a few so it matters not what the others do as they are bound for hell. But strangely the bible says man can hear the gospel and believe it unto salvation but that is not possible for those not pick out by your calvinist God is it.
Again Dave those that freely sin deserve to suffer the outcome of that sin. But those that freely choose to trust in Christ Jesus will be saved. The calvinist holds to the idea that man can freely sin but for some strange reason that same man is incapable of trusting in God. Where is the free will in that Dave?
Like it or not Dave the bible says man can freely trust in God for his salvation and God will hold man responsible for the choices he makes.
Why do you make such silly comments such as "you cannot pray for anyone to be saved because it's up to them, there can be no prophesy because the free will alternative choices can't possibly be known yet because they might change, and God can have no revivals, no opening of hearts, no times of one group verses another having many come to Christ."
Are these verses not in your bible?
the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes Rom 1:16
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,Eph 1:13
for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." Rom 10:13
Your comments reflect a misunderstanding of the sovereignty of God and seem to forget that He is omniscient. You will have to explain how a man's free will would lead to any of those things. I can see how your deterministic calvinism would lead to those things.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Well, something is taking place that is more than giving everyone some kind of equal "chance" at salvation. Common sense and experience show that. Whether Calvinist theologians explain it well or poorly is up to you.
That is standard belief of the term called omniscience I think, coupled with the idea that once something is known and stated as being the case, then if it changes it wasn't really known was it. Thus there is no omniscience. I suppose it's not required that one believe God is omniscient but I thought it was pretty well settled that he is.
Yes, he does and there is nothing God has put up that prevents us from trusting except our free will tendency to not do that. Without his influence none of us would turn to him. Whether Calvinism states that too strongly or in the best way is debatable, but remember that the basic belief of this covers Calvinists, Arminians, and Wesleyans.
What you are calling contradictions are attempts to reconcile passages in scripture that indicate God being totally sovereign and also man having free will. That's what theology does. When I point out that you can't reconcile your view of free will with other scriptures you never even offer an answer. Perhaps that is one reason there doesn't seem to be much in the way of free will confessions of faith. It would make no sense at all.
Those verses are in the Bible because that is what happens. And, you will perceive that as being your own conclusion and choice because it is. But the Bible also says our natural selves tend to consider the gospel foolishness at best. The Holy Spirit opens hearts, convinces, gives the power to the scripture that makes them more than just words and so on.
That could very well be true. I am not a good Calvinist and certainly not a theologian and I have no formal training in those areas. My comments are only intended for conversation and it helps me to bounce ideas off of each other. As far as I understand, it makes no difference in someone's salvation how they view these issues of sovereignty or predestination.
The big difference between calvinism and non calvinism in regards to salvation theology is that we see sinners unable to by their "own full free will" accept the Gospel, as we as sinners have a natural bent to always want to save ourselves and play being own gods and saviors
Also, we take plain the teaching that natural man receiveith not the things of the Bible, as they are spiritually discerned, and unsaved cannot really understand and accept until the Holy Spirit enabling to do such
If God "ordains" (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, then God is the author of Sin. That would be the Hyper or Honest Calvinist position.
If God "ordains" (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, yet is not the author of the sin that comes to pass, then nonsense is being peddled, shrouded in the illusion of "mystery."
Euphemism
Mystery = Logical Impossibility
If God "ordains" (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, yet is not the author of the sin that comes to pass, then nonsense is being peddled, shrouded in the illusion of "mystery."
Euphemism
Mystery = Logical Impossibility
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
My personal opinion only in this post.
I do not believe Calvinism is the Christian faith. Having said that, I do not believe all Calvinists are unsaved. In fact I believe that many are saved. The way I reconcile that position is by the fact that most Calvinists I hear give a testimony will usually say they became Calvinists after their conversion. This tells me the vast majority of Calvinists are not evangelists, but proselytizers. One thing about Calvinists is they read a lot of books. This is where their doctrines are developed. It also tells of the power of this system to deceive.
I do not believe Calvinism is the Christian faith. Having said that, I do not believe all Calvinists are unsaved. In fact I believe that many are saved. The way I reconcile that position is by the fact that most Calvinists I hear give a testimony will usually say they became Calvinists after their conversion. This tells me the vast majority of Calvinists are not evangelists, but proselytizers. One thing about Calvinists is they read a lot of books. This is where their doctrines are developed. It also tells of the power of this system to deceive.
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Nonsense, you point to other claims such as scripture supports exhaustive determinism, when of course there is no such thing.
And the logical consequence of "free will" means God could not harden our hearts. Again nonsense.
Why not put some actual meat on your bones of conjecture? Scripture says things, but not all things, happen by chance.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
"Exhaustive determinism" is tough to explain isn't it. If the Bible says in a certain battle a man draws a bow and shoots an arrow "on a venture" I admit that's pretty random. It happened in every battle in history where bows were used I'm sure. That in one particular battle it resulted in the death of a king according to prophesy kinda changes the picture. I don't buy it either that every random molecule is acting under God's active management - but every molecule's movement is under his sovereignty. Even Sproul, who made the first statement, also said God either causes or allows all that happens.
We know God determined times where many gentiles would be open to the gospel and Israel would tend to hardening and rejection. Yet, there is always the same appeal to all to come by faith with no suggestion that an individual Jew can't come to Christ. Why is the concept of both God's sovereignty and man's free will so objectionable to some of you guys? You do have to keep two truths in mind at one time and I have difficulty with that too.
Do storms happen by chance? From our standpoint, yes. What about shipwreaks and loss of life and property? Yes again. When Paul's ship was wreaked and he basically took over and said no loss of life would occur if they followed his instructions - was that random? Does a Calvinist have to say that all shipwreaks have God directly intervening exactly as he did in the ship Paul was in or else Calvinism isn't true? Gimme a break. If you would spend half as much time looking at what the actual confessions and theology say, rather than always trying to come up with a specific scenario and then going "what about this" you would be far better off. Better yet, read the Bible through, fairly quickly, and you will get an overall sense of God being completely in control and sovereign and yet desiring us to freely love and follow him. You will find God determining what he wills ultimately, and you find men defying him to his face, obeying him willingly, and strange as it seems, even negotiating with God concerning future obedience and consequences. I am not a committed Calvinist, but I find a lot of merit in the theology - and I don't find where they deny the basics of what I just said.
IF in the bible a prophet predicted a wicked King would die on the battle field, and later he gets hit right in the head by an arrow, did not God already state what would happen, and also the archer shot off his bow?
Calvinism is the best theology regarding Soteriology, but not the only valid one, but is the one that fits the biblical model of salvation proper
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Indeed. And that's what I was trying to tell Van. Read 1Kings chapter 22. Look at all that is going on. God is completely in sovereign control. Men are completely free to do what they want. And, for all we know, it looks like Ahab was even given a true option to do what the prophet advised and thus live, at least for a time. God can predict something unconditionally, or conditionally based upon men's responses, or not share a prediction with us so that we never know what the extent of his involvement was or how it worked.
This is not overlooked in Calvinism. Read Bunyan's "Reprobation Asserted". There you have a Calvinist stating clearly that there is a thing called reprobation, where the non-elect are not going to be saved and that this is decreed by God. But if you take the time to read the whole thing Bunyan clearly asserts that while this is true there is nothing preventing the reprobate from being saved if they would. But they won't. Both things are in operation. Some people don't like this. They either have God being the direct cause of everything, including sin and damnation, or, they make God dependent upon our free will choices as if the sovereign creator of the universe has to wait to see what our pleasure will be before he can do his will. The one thing they will not believe is that they might simply be unable to understand all the ways of God, even though that is explicitly taught in scripture. But we do live in the age of self-esteem so this should not be surprising.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I have said many times that God will use various means to draw people to Himself. And yes I do think calvinist theologians do a very poor job of explaining it. They seem to be more concerned with justifying the theological view they hold that supporting scripture.
For anyone to claim that God is not omniscient just means they do not know God. But just because some men write something down in light of their theological view does not mean that it is true. Scripture is true but all men's ideas of what scripture means are not necessarily true.
Yes I agree that the only thing that stops man from trusting in God is his "tendency"to do so. But we know from scripture and real world experiance that man can hear and believe the gospel message. If God is just, and He is, then would He condemn men for something they have no control over? Man is held responsible for the choices he makes but for God to be just man must actually have the ability to make those choices.
If those contradictions are the best they can do in trying to reconcile the sovereignty of God and free will then they failed.
Have I ever questioned the sovereignty off God, NO. Where the issue comes in is that calvinist cannot or should I say will not accept the fact that man has a free will with which he can and sometimes does trust in God.
We see free will clearly stated in both the OT & NT
if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord
and
{if you} believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead
{then} you will be saved Rom 10:9
"If you consent and obey,
{then} You will eat the best of the land;
"But if you refuse and rebel,
{then} You will be devoured by the sword." Isa 1:19
Why would one need to produce a free will confession of faith other than scripture itself. If a man will not believe the word of God then why would they believe what some man wrote?
Those verse are in the bible because that is what men do in response to the gospel message.
According to your view men will only respond if the Holy Spirit makes it possible so why does He not make it possible for all. God desires all to come to repentance and Christ covered all their sins and draws all so that all might be saved but you have the Holy Spirit holding back that ability to do what the Father & Christ want to happen. You have setup a conflict in the Godhead.
I agree salvation is through faith in God. Where I see the real difference is that the bible says God wants all to come to repentance and has provided the way and calvinism say that only a few can come to repentance and that God has determined who they are.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Sorry but that won't answer the question for those of you who are claiming some kind of equal opportunity for everyone. One guy gets a vision, and a voice and someone else gets a portion of scripture? That is no more "fair" than God doing the choosing.
Right. So God knows ahead of time what a free choice of a man will be. Even if the man can change his mind, there will be a final choice. If God knows that to be the final choice how do you explain that choice not being "set" so to speak from the time God knows it's the final choice. And once it is set, it is predetermined in that God knows it and in his wisdom has either allowed it to be so, or he wants it to be so and thus allows it. True foreknowledge is related closely to predetermination, when speaking of God. When speaking of us, it is based on statistics and deductions based on knowledge of natural processes. Don't mix up our foreknowledge with God's. It's not the same.
Absolutely. But we have no way of knowing how a man is brought to belief in the gospel, only that he does believe.
Sure. And we see the results. Read the OT quickly and you see a constant pattern of Israel promising to obey, then drifting into rebellion. Our Christian lives aren't a whole lot better sometimes. The whole reason for the Calvinistic view of free will is that they honestly studied scripture and along with personal experience and history have come up with a rather low view of our free will.
Not only provided the way but one beef I have with Calvinism is that I think God has provided more help and grace than some Calvinists seem to think. But others don't which is why some of them seem to be accepted by general Baptists wholeheartedly. Spurgeon would be an example. It is true that some Calvinists seem to act almost gleeful in proclaiming that the news is that most of you are not elect and thus doomed. But you will find that the internet is where you find most of that view with the founders and the great preachers being evangelical and accompanying warnings about the wrath of God with an open invitation to escape such wrath. I don't know what else you could demand they do.
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