Hyper-Calvinism

[JesusFan]

Why not post something other than obfuscation?

If God "ordains" (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, then God is the author of Sin. That would be the Hyper or Honest Calvinist position.
If God "ordains" (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, yet is not the author of the sin that comes to pass, then nonsense is being peddled, shrouded in the illusion of "mystery."

Euphemism
Mystery = Logical Impossibility

Did God ever have anything happen that He was not allowing/permit or direct causing?

 

[JD731]

Were David, Ruth, Abraham, Isaiah et all saved under the Old Covenant era?

They were justified by faith in God but they were not cleared of their guilt.

Ex 34:6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

It takes the blood of Christ to wash away sins and he came to do that in the beginning of the 5th Millennium.

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

It is not okay for you to be this wrong about salvation. Your teachers are leading you astray.

 

[DaveXR650]

That is not an assumption Dave. Unless you think God's decree is just a suggestion which seems to be what you are doing.

You wonder why people get so frustrated with you. You hammer on a point that you made up that I am supposed to be arguing. The problem is - I am not. Why would anyone engage with you when you do this? I'll say this one more time: when God decrees something will happen it will happen as certainly as if has already happened. But it still has to happen at the appropriate time. What you are doing is saying that because faith comes at a specific time - it cannot be said that someone will believe until they believe. That might have some merit if you or I decreed it but we are talking about a decree of God.

If God decrees you will go to a certain place in the future you will go. That does not mean that you will not use your own free will to get there. Both are true. I honestly don't know what else to say on this.

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,7 to the praise of His glorious grace;8 others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.

In the above statement it seems to be clearly stated that all who are condemned are acting in their own free will. Isn't that what you say is so important to you? Your real objection is that you don't like the view the Bible has of our free will. You think it is better than it actually is. That's something you'll have to work out for yourself but understand that not only Calvinists, but Arminians, and Wesleyans have the same view of our natural wills.

These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.10

If you notice, in this confession, men are not ordained to do any sin or evil, the sin and evil are due to God respecting their "free wills". Now look, I read too, and I know the anti-Calvinist argument that goes something like this: To decree something positive, by definition, means that you are also decreeing the negative effect. While in a sense that is true, absolutely considering only the end result, but if you are really allowing free will creatures to continue acting according to their free will then I don't see how that logic would work as a complaint of the creature thus acting on his own. He is either acting on his own or he is not. And if he is then the negative result is on him, not God.

Dave, they were condemned before they had ever sinned or God's decree means nothing. Were the numbers set?

As we have already been over, they were not condemned because they were not of the elect. They are condemned because their free will choices, which are so important to you, are respected and they are left to do them all their lives. Scripture says why they are condemned in John 3:18 and 19. Those who are not condemned are those who believed. Those who believe are the elect. Without God's grace the one's called elect would not have believed either. We don't really know how this works. Therefore the confessions won't explain all this perfectly but they can act as guardrails to prevent us getting off track and into incorrect doctrines.

Why don't you try to write up a free will confession and see if you can make the logic match all the verses found in scripture. If you try it you will find that you cannot pray for anyone to be saved because it's up to them, there can be no prophesy because the free will alternative choices can't possibly be known yet because they might change, and God can have no revivals, no opening of hearts, no times of one group verses another having many come to Christ. I'd actually like to see that.

 

[JesusFan]

They were justified by faith in God but they were not cleared of their guilt.

Ex 34:6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

It takes the blood of Christ to wash away sins and he came to do that in the beginning of the 5th Millennium.

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

It is not okay for you to be this wrong about salvation. Your teachers are leading you astray.

The cross of Christ and His sin atonement and resurrection from our viewpoint happened in time and space, but to God, always has happened, so all sinners ever saved were on by that same very basis

 

[percho]

The OT saints from Hebrews 11:13
According to [KATA] the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen [V 1 Faith is] died these all, not obtaining the promises

At the time Jesus walked the earth they were dead according to the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

From Gal 3 beginning at verse 23 YLT
Before the coming of the [substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen] faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the [substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen] faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by [the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen] faith we may be declared righteous, and the [substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen] faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, for ye are all sons of God through the [substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen] faith in Christ Jesus, for as many as to Christ were baptized did put on Christ;

Question

Now that the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, the faith, has come are they dead in faith of dead in Christ?

 

[Silverhair]

You wonder why people get so frustrated with you. You hammer on a point that you made up that I am supposed to be arguing. The problem is - I am not. Why would anyone engage with you when you do this? I'll say this one more time: when God decrees something will happen it will happen as certainly as if has already happened. But it still has to happen at the appropriate time. What you are doing is saying that because faith comes at a specific time - it cannot be said that someone will believe until they believe. That might have some merit if you or I decreed it but we are talking about a decree of God.

If God decrees you will go to a certain place in the future you will go. That does not mean that you will not use your own free will to get there. Both are true. I honestly don't know what else to say on this.

You wonder why I get so frustrated with cavinists. God did not decree who would be saved but how they would be saved, by being in Christ.

I agree that if God decrees something it will happen, I have no problem with that Dave. But the question is what did God decree? Are we going to go with scripture or the LBCF/WCF or even TULIP. That is the crux of the problem, calvinists want God to decree that select individuals be saved out of the mass of sinners and than complain when the logical result is pointed out that all those not selected were decreed to be condemned.

I do not understand why so many calvinist who agree with the LBCF/WCF seem to miss that point as it is right there in the text.
These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

In the above statement it seems to be clearly stated that all who are condemned are acting in their own free will. Isn't that what you say is so important to you? Your real objection is that you don't like the view the Bible has of our free will. You think it is better than it actually is. That's something you'll have to work out for yourself but understand that not only Calvinists, but Arminians, and Wesleyans have the same view of our natural wills.

Dave yes the LBCF makes that statement but it is in contradiction to what else they write.

I agree that men are condemned because of their free will choice to sin but what you do not want to accept is that God did not decree that a select group would be saved but that those that are saved are saved through Jesus Christ because of their free will choice to follow Him. NNE was elect before the foundation of the world, that is just a bad reading of scripture.

I have no problem with the biblical teaching on free will in fact that is what I have been trying to get you to understand. You keep saying that God has to make people trust in Him, first regeneration/born again, but that is not free will Dave. That is compulsion. Aside from the fact it is not biblical.

If you notice, in this confession, men are not ordained to do any sin or evil, the sin and evil are due to God respecting their "free wills". Now look, I read too, and I know the anti-Calvinist argument that goes something like this: To decree something positive, by definition, means that you are also decreeing the negative effect. While in a sense that is true, absolutely considering only the end result, but if you are really allowing free will creatures to continue acting according to their free will then I don't see how that logic would work as a complaint of the creature thus acting on his own. He is either acting on his own or he is not. And if he is then the negative result is on him, not God.

Yes God respects their free will to sin but He also respects their free will to trust in Him.

Those that reject God deserve to suffer the wrath of God. But the calvinist's want to have God decree one thing which cause the second thing but then you want to deny that God has caused the second thing.
We are all sinners Dave so all should be condemned but the calvinist God has chosen to save just a few so it matters not what the others do as they are bound for hell. But strangely the bible says man can hear the gospel and believe it unto salvation but that is not possible for those not pick out by your calvinist God is it.

As we have already been over, they were not condemned because they were not of the elect. They are condemned because their free will choices, which are so important to you, are respected and they are left to do them all their lives. Scripture says why they are condemned in John 3:18 and 19. Those who are not condemned are those who believed. Those who believe are the elect. Without God's grace the one's called elect would not have believed either. We don't really know how this works. Therefore the confessions won't explain all this perfectly but they can act as guardrails to prevent us getting off track and into incorrect doctrines.

Why don't you try to write up a free will confession and see if you can make the logic match all the verses found in scripture. If you try it you will find that you cannot pray for anyone to be saved because it's up to them, there can be no prophesy because the free will alternative choices can't possibly be known yet because they might change, and God can have no revivals, no opening of hearts, no times of one group verses another having many come to Christ. I'd actually like to see that.

Again Dave those that freely sin deserve to suffer the outcome of that sin. But those that freely choose to trust in Christ Jesus will be saved. The calvinist holds to the idea that man can freely sin but for some strange reason that same man is incapable of trusting in God. Where is the free will in that Dave?

Like it or not Dave the bible says man can freely trust in God for his salvation and God will hold man responsible for the choices he makes.

Why do you make such silly comments such as "you cannot pray for anyone to be saved because it's up to them, there can be no prophesy because the free will alternative choices can't possibly be known yet because they might change, and God can have no revivals, no opening of hearts, no times of one group verses another having many come to Christ."
Are these verses not in your bible?
the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes Rom 1:16
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,Eph 1:13
for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." Rom 10:13

Your comments reflect a misunderstanding of the sovereignty of God and seem to forget that He is omniscient. You will have to explain how a man's free will would lead to any of those things. I can see how your deterministic calvinism would lead to those things.