Hyper-Calvinism

[percho]

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen 1:27
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Gen 2:8,9
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:17

Who else was in the garden?

Was God testing the man He had created in his image and the man fail the test or was God through the failure of the man made in his image going to destroy the other, "one," in the garden. Was the other, "one," in the Garden already the Adversary of God?

According to the Word of God what was necessary in order to destroy the devil the one who had the power of death?
Heb 2:14 YLT Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Where was death going to come from? What brings the death?

Was it foreordained before Adam sinned for Christ to shed his blood. If Adam had not sinned, salvation would have been by works of law?

 

[Van]

I see the usual suspects are posting off topic diversions. If God allows something, then that something is "through" Him. Otherwise it would not occur.

Did Johnathan Edwards say people were predestined to heaven or hell? Yes

Ordain does not mean "allow." Once again word meanings are redefined to deny historical Calvinism.

Next, the claim was made, we do not have any way to know if God actively causes every action. Scripture says things happen by chance.

Lastly the claim is made that Calvinism does not teach people were saved or damned from all eternity and nothing we can do will alter that predestined outcome. The claim is false.

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According to Calvinist doctrine, a person is considered either "saved" or "damned" from all eternity, meaning God has predetermined who will be saved and who will be damned before the creation of the world, with no human action able to change this predetermined fate; this is often referred to as "double predestination.".
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[JesusFan]

I see the usual suspects are posting off topic diversions. If God allows something, then that something is "through" Him. Otherwise it would not occur.

Did Johnathan Edwards say people were predestined to heaven or hell? Yes

Ordain does not mean "allow." Once again word meanings are redefined to deny historical Calvinism.

Next, the claim was made, we do not have any way to know if God actively causes every action. Scripture says things happen by chance.

Lastly the claim is made that Calvinism does not teach people were saved or damned from all eternity and nothing we can do will alter that predestined outcome. The claim is false.

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According to Calvinist doctrine, a person is considered either "saved" or "damned" from all eternity, meaning God has predetermined who will be saved and who will be damned before the creation of the world, with no human action able to change this predetermined fate; this is often referred to as "double predestination.". ​

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Predestination and election in the bible affirms that it relates to the destiny of the saved, not the lost, and where would there be any thing such as chance and luck in a universe overruled by God?

 

[DaveXR650]

Did Johnathan Edwards say people were predestined to heaven or hell? Yes

Edwards also preached that everything is ready for you. Christ has died. All that is waiting now is your consent. Nothing is keeping you from coming to Christ but your own refusal to do so. His theological musings about how one can put together the revealed knowledge we have about the attributes of God - his all knowing, all powerful, complete holiness, into a comprehensive system of theology you can accept or reject as you wish.

Ordain does not mean "allow." Once again word meanings are redefined to deny historical Calvinism.

It means to set events in order. In the case of events involving living creatures with wills of their own, it can mean determining what will happen, setting up things to modify or thwart undesired actions, or allowing obedient actions or actions disobedient that fit into the ordained plan to occur as wished by the creatures involved. Come on, this isn't that hard.

Next, the claim was made, we do not have any way to know if God actively causes every action. Scripture says things happen by chance.

True, but the things that happen by chance were known in advance by God and allowed to happen as they happen then they also could be said to be ordained. All I was saying was that there may be events that we are given no knowledge of as being of concern to God. In that case does he really ordain the action as I previously described or does he allow natural course of action to occur. After all, the natural actions are ultimately his creation too. I don't know why you are stuck on this as is doesn't matter at all.

Lastly the claim is made that Calvinism does not teach people were saved or damned from all eternity and nothing we can do will alter that predestined outcome. The claim is false.

That statement is false. That would be a characteristic of hyper-Calvinism.

According to Calvinist doctrine, a person is considered either "saved" or "damned" from all eternity, meaning God has predetermined who will be saved and who will be damned before the creation of the world, with no human action able to change this predetermined fate; this is often referred to as "double predestination.".

I don't know if you are being deliberately ignorant or if you are incapable of abstract thought. The idea that God knows who is going to be saved or damned ahead of time is part of our standard view of the Christian God. Non-Calvinist Christians also believe this. If you are willing to look at God's ability to see the future, and at the same time say that he is not sovereign over the future, then you should reject Calvinism. To me, all that Calvinism does is it understands that to know a future event infallibly means by definition that the event is set as being true. If you are God, then you have at least allowed and given permission for that event to happen which means if must be at least acceptable to you, or you would have stopped it. Therefore it is said that you "ordained it. But Calvinism also says that creatures are truly acting withing this system according to their own free will. So the confessions reflect both the ordaining of all things by God and the free will of creatures.

 

[DaveXR650]

If you notice there is always a lot of talk about the horrible implications of Calvinistic theology. Do you ever consider the implications of non-Calvinistic theology?
One is that when something happens, if God is not sovereign over it, even if it's horrible then there are conclusions that can be drawn.
Maybe God can't do anything about it. He can't help you and you are on your own. Maybe he didn't see it coming, and thus knows no more about the future choices of a free will individual than you or I, beyond what he might deduce due to higher intelligence.
Maybe God doesn't care. If it's something he didn't do himself then maybe it's your problem just living in a free will world. Deal with it.
Maybe God just doesn't like you. Really. Why should he and why does he have any obligation to like you.
You could go on and on and basically come up with a concept of God like the Greek or Roman gods, who were like I describe above. But we have scripture that gives us insight into God's nature and abilities. Some of the guys that studied that came up with what we call "Calvinism". In my opinion it makes sense as a theology but it does require you to hold two thoughts at once. That is God is completely sovereign and according to the Calvinist definition of the terms involved (and they have a right to determine the meaning of the terms used in their own philosophy), and he predetermines all that happens while at the same time not violating the free wills of men.

If you object to that you are within your rights. If I understand it all correctly all God demands from us is that we respond to his imperative commands. In other words we need to repent toward God and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you are not a Calvinist and you do this and someday you find out that you were indeed of the elect before the foundation of the world, and that you were subject to irresistible grace are you going to be offended? On the other hand if someday you, as a Calvinist, are told by God that he is happy you accepted his invitation and that he wondered if you would ever come around are you going to insult God by saying you thought he knew more or just bite your lip and be thankful. (Thankful to yourself I guess for being smart enough to make the right choice.)

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I pointed out 1 Kings 22 to @Van some time ago. The true prophet, MIcaiah foretells disaster for Ahab (eg. v.23). A Syrian archer fires off an arrow 'at random' (v.34), and amazingly, it 'struck the king of Israel between the joints of his armour.' How remarkable is that? That among thousands of troops milling around on the battlefield, the arrow just happened to strike KIng Ahab, and not just strike him and bounce off his armour, but find its way in between the joints of his armour and kill him. Now what are the odds of that?
So my question for @Van (and I notice that he hasn't yet found time to answer the question I asked him in post# 160) is this: do you think that God was sitting in heaven thinking, "I really hope Ahab gets killed in this battle, but I can't do anything about it because I have to allow for free will"? And then when the arrow killed Ahab, He thought, "Yippee! What an amazing result. I never thought that would happen. I was afraid I'd given Micaiah a duff prophecy"? Of course not! 'The LORD has made all things for Himself; yes, even the wicked for the day of doom' (Prov. 16:4).