Hyper-Calvinism

[DaveXR650]

I have noticed that many here have unfortunately resorted to insults by dismissing your efforts to explain this clear Biblical teaching as “Vanology”.

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I don't know how you come up with this since directly above Van specifically says that God does not know if we will put our faith in Christ. He does not believe in foreknowledge regarding salvation.

It could not be more clear that God responds to free will actions, yet Calvinists will dismiss verses like this, sometimes even the whole book of Jonah, as a figure of speech.

Have you ever read Pilgrim's Progress? If you can read that work, written by a strong Calvinist, and not believe that the characters in there are not acting freely and suffering the consequences then I will concede your point. The idea that God does not respond to free will actions is not a tenet of Calvinism. That is why they preach that it is your duty to immediately respond to the gospel and that the greatest offense a man can do is to refuse the offer of the gospel. Hyper-Calvinists do not believe that though and that is what this thread was supposed to be about.

In addition, would you cite where you heard that Calvinists teach that the whole book of Jonah is a "figure of speech"? Most of the Calvinist writers I read are old but they seem to take the story of Jonah quite literally.

Further, if a Calvinist wants to arbitrarily say that verses showing “God changing His mind” is merely a figure of speech, I guess that means that I can arbitrarily say that “predestination” is a figure of speech as well.

This goes back to what Van was saying earlier. The question is not whether God changes his mind. If God gives you a choice and lists the consequences of each choice and the choice is real in that sense God is "changing his mind", based on your choice. But the question you and Van are raising is that you have taken this to mean God does not know what you will do and is at your mercy as far as his overall plan and program, based on your choices. Like I said earlier to Van, I don't know any Christian group with a view of God like this and most deists even have a higher view than that regarding God.

It is an inconsistent system whether they like it or not and in the end their logic falls apart.

I think that what happens is that like in the discussion above, when confronted with a God who knows everything, and yet wants to interact with us on our level, if you want to understand how this works you will have difficulties. I don't think Calvinism is perfect, and I understand that even within it there are a dozen ways to understand each issue but when you come on and slam it without having a coherent system of your own it wears thin. If you do have a coherent system then attack Calvinism at each point with an alternative view. This I have not seen yet from anyone.

 

[Van]

SNIP

As you have said time and time again, when a person places their trust in Christ they are immediately spiritually transferred in Christ and become one of the elect. God has foreknowledge of who is and who isn’t going to be a part of the elect. Scripture says nothing about God’s foreknowledge being based on some kind of script that everyone is pre-programmed to follow.

Jonah 3:10
When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.

It could not be more clear that God responds to free will actions, yet Calvinists will dismiss verses like this, sometimes even the whole book of Jonah, as a figure of speech.

It isn’t hard to understand that God predestines things to happen and at the same time human free will is involved in that predestined plan.

SNIP

Hi Nolan, we are in the same chapter, but probably not quite on the same page.

Your page - when a person places their trust in Christ, they are immediately spiritually transferred in Christ.
My page - when a person places their trust in Christ, and God credits their faith as righteousness, they are immediately transferred into Christ.

Your page - foreknowledge refers to God's knowledge of future events
My page - foreknowledge refers to information acquired or formulated in the past, being utilized in the present. Thus 1 Peter 1:1-2 refers to the elect who were chosen according to God's redemption plan formulated in the past, and utilized in the present. Thus the verse does not support the premise God knew before creation which foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith He would choose, only that He would choose them according to His plan formulated beforehand. And I believe the plan was to choose believers whose faith God evaluated and credited as righteousness during their lifetime.

As far as "free will" here is my view. We operate within the purview God allows. Initially we have the capacity to understand spiritual milk, but not spiritual solid food (1 Cor. 3:1-3) but can loose that ability by hardening our heart with the practice of sin, or by being misled into believing another gospel. As Jesus said, traditions can make God's word to no effect.

 

[Van]

its impossible for God to ever choose to not know all things exhaustive fashion, as its one of His divine attributes"all knowing"

Note the complete twaddle, Jesus did not know the time of His return, yet was "all-knowing." Pay no attention to claims without reference to scripture.

 

[JesusFan]

Note the complete twaddle, Jesus did not know the time of His return, yet was "all-knowing." Pay no attention to claims without reference to scripture.

Van, Jesus accepted the limitations of becoming fully human, so he could choose Himself to npot know at that time, but once restored back to full glory, was and right now surely knows His second coming event and timing

 

[Van]

Van, Jesus accepted the limitations of becoming fully human, so he could choose Himself to npot know at that time, but once restored back to full glory, was and right now surely knows His second coming event and timing

More made up fiction from this poster. Jesus was not limited by "becoming fully human." He is God almighty and can do as He pleases. Also He can choose not to know something at any time, He is God Almighty.

 

[JesusFan]

More made up fiction from this poster. Jesus was not limited by "becoming fully human." He is God almighty and can do as He pleases. Also He can choose not to know something at any time, He is God Almighty.

God the Father and God the Holy Spoirit cannot choose to do that, but God the Son while in human flesh could and did choose to do such

 

[Van]

God the Father and God the Holy Spoirit cannot choose to do that, but God the Son while in human flesh could and did choose to do such

More fiction, more unbiblical and unstudied falsehoods posted.

 

[Hutch]

Back up before that, as who are the ones who will choose to receive Jesus as Lord by faith? Where did their faith come from?

Their faith as a result of the conviction of the Holy Spirit, which (Who) convicts all men of sin (John 16:8).

 

[Hutch]

Hi Hutch, pretty good summation.

When God chose His Redeemer, He chose corporately, not individually all those His Redeemer would redeem. Thus we were chosen in Him, i.e. when God chose His redeemer.

We become people of God when God credits our faith as righteousness and transfers us spiritually into Christ. Since we merit nothing, that action bestows mercy upon us. Before God credits our faith, we have not been chosen for salvation individually, thus once we had not obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10

I respect your position as a Calvinist. My position is still the same: Predestination refers to God per-determining a PLAN of salvation. We are left to make the decision to accept or reject that plan. John 3:16

 

[JesusFan]

I respect your position as a Calvinist. My position is still the same: Predestination refers to God per-determining a PLAN of salvation. We are left to make the decision to accept or reject that plan. John 3:16

except God predestined all of the apostles as Jesus elected them out beforehand to be His apostles, as he choose them, not them choosing Him first

 

[JesusFan]

Their faith as a result of the conviction of the Holy Spirit, which (Who) convicts all men of sin (John 16:8).

Bible though states saving faith is the very gift of God

 

[JesusFan]

More fiction, more unbiblical and unstudied falsehoods posted.

Jesus could choose to act from his sinless humanity, but the other 2 Persons being Deity nature only cannot do that as would go against their eternal attributes as being God

 

[Van]

I respect your position as a Calvinist. My position is still the same: Predestination refers to God per-determining a PLAN of salvation. We are left to make the decision to accept or reject that plan. John 3:16

Hi Hutch, not sure if you meant your position as a Calvinist or my position as a Calvinist.

I am a one point Calvinist, once saved always saved, and a two point Arminian, Christ died for all humanity and God's election of individuals for salvation is conditional, God choosing those whose faith He alone credits as righteousness. We do not put ourselves into Christ and we cannot take ourselves out of Christ.

I agree God determined beforehand, before creation, a plan of redemption based on conditional election for salvation. But God predetermined many specific things, as He declares the end from the beginning. For example God has declared Christ will return. His return is predestined.

I differ from both Calvinism and Arminianism with regard to these two points:

1) The lost have limited spiritual ability, they can hear and understand and affirmatively respond to "spiritual milk" (which includes the fundamentals of the gospel) but cannot understand spiritual solid food, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

2) Our individual election for salvation occurs during our physical lifetime, not before creation. 1 Peter 2:9-10 clearly says once we were not a people (chosen for God's own possession) so we could not have been chosen individually before we physically existed. The passage also says once we had not obtained mercy, so again we could not have been chosen for salvation before we physically existed.​

 

[Van]

Jesus could choose to act from his sinless humanity, but the other 2 Persons being Deity nature only cannot do that as would go against their eternal attributes as being God

Nonsense. It is the false attribute claim that God must know everything imaginable, that denies His attribute of omnipotence, He has the power to choose not to know what He does not want to predestine. Duh

 

[Hutch]

Bible though states saving faith is the very gift of God

Yes, available to everyone!

 

[Hutch]

Hi Hutch, not sure if you meant your position as a Calvinist or my position as a Calvinist.

I am a one point Calvinist, once saved always saved, and a two point Arminian, Christ died for all humanity and God's election of individuals for salvation is conditional, God choosing those whose faith He alone credits as righteousness. We do not put ourselves into Christ and we cannot take ourselves out of Christ.

I agree God determined beforehand, before creation, a plan of redemption based on conditional election for salvation. But God predetermined many specific things, as He declares the end from the beginning. For example God has declared Christ will return. His return is predestined.

I differ from both Calvinism and Arminianism with regard to these two points:

​

1) The lost have limited spiritual ability, they can hear and understand and affirmatively respond to "spiritual milk" (which includes the fundamentals of the gospel) but cannot understand spiritual solid food, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.​

​

2) Our individual election for salvation occurs during our physical lifetime, not before creation. 1 Peter 2:9-10 clearly says once we were not a people (chosen for God's own possession) so we could not have been chosen individually before we physically existed. The passage also says once we had not obtained mercy, so again we could not have been chosen for salvation before we physically existed.​

Van,
Thanks for your comments. I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian. Even the point of C that you hold to. Do you hold to it as C taught it? C taught that if a person died in a backsliden, he wasn't saved to begin with. I have trouble with that.

1) The lost have limited spiritual ability, they can hear and understand and affirmatively respond to "spiritual milk" (which includes the fundamentals of the gospel) but cannot understand spiritual solid food, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

I think I would agree with your "1)" statement.

2) Our individual election for salvation occurs during our physical lifetime, not before creation. 1 Peter 2:9-10 clearly says once we were not a people (chosen for God's own possession) so we could not have been chosen individually before we physically existed. The passage also says once we had not obtained mercy, so again we could not have been chosen for salvation before we physically existed.

I'm not sure I can agree with "2)" because you used the phrase "individual election." My position is that God elected the plan for salvation, not the person. But perhaps it is a matter of semantics. If you are saving a person becomes one of the elect once they put their saving faith in Christ, then I would agree. Also, I believe God has a knowledge (because He is omniscient) of who will trust Him, but that His knowledge of that fact is not what determines it.

 

[kyredneck]

My position is still the same: Predestination refers to God per-determining a PLAN of salvation.

So you still choose to ignore plain pronouns?:

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

This is not a 'predestination of a plan', it's clearly a predestination of INDIVIDUALS.

 

[percho]

So you still choose to ignore plain pronouns?:

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

This is not a 'predestination of a plan', it's clearly a predestination of INDIVIDUALS.

Could it also be states as:

a predestination of INDIVIDUALS.

toward a plan?

Consider;

Are all whom are predestined, predestined to rule with him? If yes, then I ask rule over whom? Also as priests, priests over whom?

 

[Van]

Van,
Thanks for your comments. I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian. Even the point of C that you hold to. Do you hold to it as C taught it? C taught that if a person died in a backsliden, he wasn't saved to begin with. I have trouble with that.

1) The lost have limited spiritual ability, they can hear and understand and affirmatively respond to "spiritual milk" (which includes the fundamentals of the gospel) but cannot understand spiritual solid food, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

I think I would agree with your "1)" statement.

2) Our individual election for salvation occurs during our physical lifetime, not before creation. 1 Peter 2:9-10 clearly says once we were not a people (chosen for God's own possession) so we could not have been chosen individually before we physically existed. The passage also says once we had not obtained mercy, so again we could not have been chosen for salvation before we physically existed.

I'm not sure I can agree with "2)" because you used the phrase "individual election." My position is that God elected the plan for salvation, not the person. But perhaps it is a matter of semantics. If you are saving a person becomes one of the elect once they put their saving faith in Christ, then I would agree. Also, I believe God has a knowledge (because He is omniscient) of who will trust Him, but that His knowledge of that fact is not what determines it.

Hi Hutch, I hold to once saved, always saved. Nothing a person can do after salvation will lose his or her salvation. And yes, I agree that those who claimed to believe, then renounced their faith were never actually saved, God never credited their faith as righteousness and transferred them into Christ.

Recall 1 Peter 1:3-5. Once you are saved, God has caused you to be born anew, He protects your future inheritance by His power. Again, my understanding of scripture is that a person can put their faith in Christ and not be "automatically" saved. For example Soil #2 of Matthew 13 put his faith in the gospel, but was not saved. He fell way because he lacked a deep root (deep commitment) to serve Christ no matter the earthly cost.

Election for Salvation is described in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. God chooses individuals for salvation through (1) sanctification by the Spirit and (2) faith in the truth. Thus no individual was chosen for salvation before they had "faith in the truth." Next, only God determines if a person's professed faith is actual living faith and not dead faith. Thus only if God credits a person's faith as righteousness, does God then set the person apart, transferring them from being "in Adam" (the realm of darkness) and into being "in Christ." So I am saying an individual person becomes "elect" or chosen when God credits their faith as righteousness, not when they profess faith in Christ.

Divine Knowledge in another topic that I suspect we hold differing views. But lets stick to discussing our differences on being chosen for salvation.

 

[JesusFan]

Hi Hutch, not sure if you meant your position as a Calvinist or my position as a Calvinist.

I am a one point Calvinist, once saved always saved, and a two point Arminian, Christ died for all humanity and God's election of individuals for salvation is conditional, God choosing those whose faith He alone credits as righteousness. We do not put ourselves into Christ and we cannot take ourselves out of Christ.

I agree God determined beforehand, before creation, a plan of redemption based on conditional election for salvation. But God predetermined many specific things, as He declares the end from the beginning. For example God has declared Christ will return. His return is predestined.

I differ from both Calvinism and Arminianism with regard to these two points:

​

1) The lost have limited spiritual ability, they can hear and understand and affirmatively respond to "spiritual milk" (which includes the fundamentals of the gospel) but cannot understand spiritual solid food, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.​

​

2) Our individual election for salvation occurs during our physical lifetime, not before creation. 1 Peter 2:9-10 clearly says once we were not a people (chosen for God's own possession) so we could not have been chosen individually before we physically existed. The passage also says once we had not obtained mercy, so again we could not have been chosen for salvation before we physically existed.​

One must be a 5 pointer to be a Calvinist period, and spiritual milk refers ONLY to babes in Christ, NOT to any lost sinner
And we who are the elect in Christ were indeed chosen in Him by God the father from eternity past period

So you totally misunderstand Calvinism, predestination, and election