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Hyper-Calvinism
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Agreed, as there is not eternal justification, as all of us were born into Adam likeness, and had to received Jesus as our Lord and Savior to change over to kingdom of light and be now then saved and justified
Good grief, man, if men were saved before the cross of Christ why did he die? This is why I hate Calvinism so much. They project this ignorance on themselves and then expect others to believe it too. There is rhyme and reason to God’s ways but none to Calvini.
God is reasonable and his ways are logical. One does not have to believe these fairy tales. Follow the logic.
So David Moses Abraham etc were not saved did not get to heaven yet then?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@DaveXR650 you are overlooking the obvious problem that the calvinist view presents.
If one is elect in eternity past that means that the non-elect were chosen in eternity past and as you said "when God states that something is going to happen it will most certainly happen when and in the manner he says."
So the "calvinist elect" were saved prior to them believing or even existing and for the non-elect they were condemned prior to them even committing one sin.
The calvinist adds the words "to be" when they read Eph 1:4 as so
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us "to be" in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
The Bible teaches that We are not chosen “to be” in Him but instead that those who have repented and believed and are now “in him” {Christ} are promised and predestined to an inheritance, adoption, and to be holy and without blame.
The choosing was for the blessings to be found in Christ, not those who would be in Christ. It is God choosing what those of us who are in Him will receive. Eph_1:5-14
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
@Silverhair. When I look up all the uses of "elect" in scripture I find it pretty clear that it refers to God doing the choosing of individuals. I also don't usually find the word separated from belief or those who are following Christ. So you have both. The "obvious problem" is that you have both and I can't explain that but neither can anyone else. That's why the confessions include both.
Trying to explain away the meaning of election is not the way to handle this. Any Calvinist who thinks that it is important to preach the gospel because people who hear it and believe will be saved is alright by me. I don't see why you would object if they also believe that those who do so are the elect, and that God had chose them before they chose God.
Trying to explain away the meaning of election is not the way to handle this. Any Calvinist who thinks that it is important to preach the gospel because people who hear it and believe will be saved is alright by me. I don't see why you would object if they also believe that those who do so are the elect, and that God had chose them before they chose God.
Does allowing something mean causing something. What for more obfuscation from the those claiming not to believe in HyperCalvinism.
Romans 3:25. Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because, in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed....'
The Lord Jesus died to propitiate God's righteous anger and to satisfy His justice against God's Old Testament elect, such as Abel. Otherwise God could not have passed over their sins.
The Prophet Abel
[Adapted from a sermon preached at Scott Drive Church, Exmouth.] Hebrews 11:4. ‘By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he wa…
marprelate.wordpress.com
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@DaveXR650 the obvious answer ifs that if God "elected" certain people to be saved then logically those that were not elected were condemned to hell. That is not a biblical view but it is the view we see in calvinism even though they well deny it.
When in the WCF or LBCF it says God decreed X are you now saying that was just a suggestion? Calvinists want to say He decrees all things but not all things. That is just them trying to avoid the logical outcome of their views.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Well, if scripture indicates God having an elect and that is what you want to say about it go ahead. You seen to be the one making a logical assumption.
No. I am saying that the free will of people is still in operation, as the confessions state. I would imagine that the purpose was to keep one from arriving at the logical conclusions you make and in your case they failed, but it's still there should you decide to reconsider at some future time.
No. none of them were saved. There is no salvation from the penalty of sin, which is the second death in the lake of fire, apart from Christ. OT believers in what God said to them are "JUSTIFIED" by their believing and their faith is imputed to them for righteousness. . This does not mean they all believed the same things but that they all believed God, what he said to them.
The gospel account is a case in point. Do you think the generation of Jesus Christ, when he came as the virgin born son of God, presented a different set of circumstances to be believed than the time before he came? How many people were required to believe that Jesus had come, in say, the days of Jeremiah and that he was the Messiah, the son of God?
Where is any consistent teaching in the OT that God is the father of Israel? Isn't it true that one of the purposes of the ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ was to reveal God as Father? Is this progressive revelation?
The revelation of God is a continuing drama of redemption that continues to unfold in history of time. Those of you who attempt to make prophecy a part of past history are doing the work of the enemy and are confusing the gospel.
In the NT we must believe that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again from the dead on the third day and no one will be justified by God who doesn't believe that.
Those OT justified believers, who had their faith imputed to them by God for righteousness, the Judge of all men, have had their sins washed away in the blood of the Lamb and they are certainly saved and are with the Father now but they were not delivered by hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Romans 8 says this;
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Note: The elect here is determined by the context and the context of this discourse is the elect people of God, Israel, which begins in Rom 7:1 through Rom 11:12, where Paul shifts gears and outlines how this impacts the gentiles and how we should respond to these new revelations in the program of God.
All saved under the Old Covenant were saved by the basis of the Cross and resurrection of Christ, as they looked forward and believed unto Coming messiah
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That is not an assumption Dave. Unless you think God's decree is just a suggestion which seems to be what you are doing.
Yes the bible tells us that there is an elect people, it's those that have trusted in Christ not those that will trust in Christ, as calvinism would have it.
The only way for the confessions to be correct is if one denies logic. Remember Dave calvinism has a deterministic view of salvation {TULIP}
Free will says man has the ability to make alternate choices. The confessions decree does not leave that option.
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,7 to the praise of His glorious grace;8 others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.
These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.10
This is from the LBCF CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE Paragraph 3 & 4
Can you show me where man has any ability to exercise a free will that does not set up a factual contradiction?
You most likely will say they sinned and deserved to be condemned but read the confession Dave, they were condemned before they had ever sinned or God's decree means nothing. Were the numbers set? The confession says they were. Could man change the position that God's decree placed them in, NO.
Why not post something other than obfuscation?
If God "ordains" (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, then God is the author of Sin. That would be the Hyper or Honest Calvinist position.
If God "ordains" (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, yet is not the author of the sin that comes to pass, then nonsense is being peddled, shrouded in the illusion of "mystery."
Euphemism
Mystery = Logical Impossibility
Stop and reason. Peter, James, and John and all the apostles and disciples of Christ were completely in the dark concerning the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ while they ministered with him for 3 1/2 years. None of them even believed it even after it was reported to them. How about giving some thought to what you say? Jesus and his disciples were preaching the good news, the glad tidings, the gospel, of the kingdom.
I am not sure why some of you folk have such a problem with plain language. One thing is certain, those who ministered with Jesus was not looking for his death and resurrection and one does not have to be at the head of the class to know that. He just has to read the record and believe it.
Were David, Ruth, Abraham, Isaiah et all saved under the Old Covenant era?