I am a false convert, love my sin, and headed to hell!!

[Dr. Bob]

You want to meet a bunch of real hypocrites, then hang around with Lordship Salvation folks. These guys are oblivious to their own sin, because they spend so much time examining you to make sure you are a real Christian.

Wonder if I'm the only one who finds this sort of lie offensive AND at the same time scratching my head when I see the one who wrote it?

:tonofbricks:

If any of the Lordship types actually would question salvation due to the "works" evident in a poster on the BB's life, I think Bro Win would find his name at the top of the list. (And no, I am not questioning the salvation of Bro Win Just pointing out the elephant in the room.)

 

[Revmitchell]

Wonder if I'm the only one who finds this sort of lie offensive AND at the same time scratching my head when I see the one who wrote it?

It says more about him than it does anyone else.

 

[Winman]

Wonder if I'm the only one who finds this sort of lie offensive AND at the same time scratching my head when I see the one who wrote it?

:tonofbricks:

If any of the Lordship types actually would question salvation due to the "works" evident in a poster on the BB's life, I think Bro Win would find his name at the top of the list. (And no, I am not questioning the salvation of Bro Win Just pointing out the elephant in the room.)

Of course not.

 

[evangelist6589]

You miss the whole point. Jesus DID emphasize repentance.

Luke 13:3 (NIV)
3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

In fact his very first message that he preached in contained in Matt 3:2. Turn your bible there and see what He said.

Next turn to Mark 1:15 and read what Jesus said.

After reading these verses what do you see?

Lordship Salvation cannot be understood. Ask any person who is into LS how much sin you must sin to be lost and they will not be able to answer you. I have done this dozens of times and they NEVER answer, because they don't know themselves.

Or ask them how good you must be to prove you are saved, and you will get the same answer, SILENCE.

Now, they will tell you over and over again that Jesus must be the Lord of your life to be saved, but they can never explain it in a practical way that a person can understand and perform.

And that is the problem right there, it is teaching that you must PERFORM to be saved. That is works.

When Jesus met the Samaritan woman at the well, what did he tell her she had to do to get saved? Let's look.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Now, I think you would agree with me that Jesus already knew this woman had been married and divorced 5 times, and was now living with a man in sin. Did Jesus tell her she had to quit that sin to be saved? NO. Did Jesus tell her she had to repent of all her sins to be saved? NO.

All he said was ASK. It doesn't get EASIER than that. If she would simply ask him, he would have given her living water, which is the Holy Spirit.

Here is a good video, although it will certainly offend the Calvinists here. But it is more about Lordship Salvation than Calvinism. You might want to skip the first three minutes, that is about when he gets down to actually explaining why LS is a problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xpnX2TxwRo

The scriptures say salvation is a "free gift". We don't have to work for it, just receive it.

 

[evangelist6589]

Page 40; 1st full paragraph.

It all depends, doesn't it? Being debt free isn't bad in and of itself. That said, I don't know if there are any underlying, "evil" reasons in your heart for wanting to pay off these debts. That's something I can't know. Pray for God to reveal them to you if they are there.

Also, are you "abandoning" your family to make money to pay off these debts and donate to ministries? Are you working so hard to accomplish these good goals that they never see you? In that case, I'd think there's a problem. Again, I don't know if it is the case--and you may not either. Pray for God to show you your heart.

Blessings,

The Archangel

No I had a job that paid me about $400-$500 more a check than what I make presently but it was taking too much time from family and church and so I am no longer there. God said he and family go above paying off debts. I want to pay off debts just to be free, and its what Ramsey and Crown have taught me. I don't think this is a bad goal, however I don't think making what I do working just 40 hours a week is going to accomplish it. And for this I won't be able to pay them off, just pay them down. What do you say? Bad desires?

There are definitely really good paying jobs at the company I work for that could tackle the large student loans that I have, however they would take much time away from family and missing too much church and so I am stuck at a moderate wage in my area.

 

[evangelist6589]

It says more about him than it does anyone else.

What of you Mitchell? Are you innocent?

 

[evangelist6589]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xpnX2TxwRo

The scriptures say salvation is a "free gift". We don't have to work for it, just receive it.

He never explains what he thinks of moderate Calvinist such as Erwin Lutzer whom are not Lordship. So he assumed all calvinist are Lordship and anti Evangelism?????????

Also he got his facts wrong. MacArthur did not write the book The Great Evangelical Disaster.

 

[Winman]

You miss the whole point. Jesus DID emphasize repentance.

It is you missing the point, read again.

Luke 13:3 (NIV)
3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

What is Jesus saying they must repent of? Read verse 2 to find out.

Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

He was telling these persons they must repent of the false presupposition they were righteous because nothing bad had happened to them. He is not telling them they must stop sinning to be saved.

In fact his very first message that he preached in contained in Matt 3:2. Turn your bible there and see what He said.

This was John the Baptist, and Paul tells us what John meant when he said repent;

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

John didn't tell people they had to stop sinning to be saved, he told them they had to believe on the person who came after him, who was Jesus Christ.

Next turn to Mark 1:15 and read what Jesus said.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

This doesn't say stop sinning to be saved, it says to believe the gospel.

After reading these verses what do you see?

I see that you are a person who does not read with comprehension.

 

[evangelist6589]

It is you missing the point, read again.



What is Jesus saying they must repent of? Read verse 2 to find out.

Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

He was telling these persons they must repent of the false presupposition they were righteous because nothing bad had happened to them. He is not telling them they must stop sinning to be saved.



This was John the Baptist, and Paul tells us what John meant when he said repent;

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

John didn't tell people they had to stop sinning to be saved, he told them they had to believe on the person who came after him, who was Jesus Christ.



Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

This doesn't say stop sinning to be saved, it says to believe the gospel.



I see that you are a person who does not read with comprehension.

And I see you are a person that loves his semi-Pelagianism so much he will read into the Bible to justify his views. No Jesus did not stay stop sinning as thats impossible in the flesh, he said to turn to Christ and become a new creation.

2 Cor 5:17 (NIV)
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here!

So WinMan are you saying that saved believers are not NEW creatures in Christ? You know once I met a Witch when out witnessing whom claimed she loved Jesus. I said she was bound for Hell and that she needed to repent. She did not like to hear this, but she may have professed to have asked Jesus into her heart. By your logic she was a born again believer as all she needed to do was "believe" as she claimed she did, yet still practiced witchcraft.

 

[Winman]

And I see you are a person that loves his semi-Pelagianism so much he will read into the Bible to justify his views. No Jesus did not stay stop sinning as thats impossible in the flesh, he said to turn to Christ and become a new creation.

2 Cor 5:17 (NIV)
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here!

So WinMan are you saying that saved believers are not NEW creatures in Christ? You know once I met a Witch when out witnessing whom claimed she loved Jesus. I said she was bound for Hell and that she needed to repent. She did not like to hear this, but she may have professed to have asked Jesus into her heart. By your logic she was a born again believer as all she needed to do was "believe" as she claimed she did, yet still practiced witchcraft.

I am not saying saved believers are not a new creature. It is you that believes a person must act like that new creature BEFORE they can get saved.

You think a person has to stop sinning to get saved, when we get saved to stop sinning. It is after you believe that you receive the Holy Spirit and are a new creature with a new heart that does not desire to sin.

You just have it completely backwards, that's all I'm saying.

 

[The Archangel]

It is you missing the point, read again.

He is not telling them they must stop sinning to be saved.

This doesn't say stop sinning to be saved, it says to believe the gospel.

Funny, 1 Corinthians 6 says exactly the opposite...

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)​

If, as 1 Corinthians 6 says, the unrighteous won't inherit the Kingdom and then it identifies what it means to be unrighteous--being a sinner, then one probably needs to stop sinning to be saved. Or, more properly understood, one needs to take God's side against sin, not sin's side against God.

A true Christian cannot argue that he or she can sin all they want.

It is you that is lacking in comprehension here.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

Calvinists especially (but many non-Cals as well) will preach hard how we are all born with a sin nature, and that everything we do is sin. We do not have the ability to turn from sin, and we do not have the ability to believe. You have to be regenerated before you can repent or believe.

Then, right after you have convinced them that they cannot possibly turn from sin, and that they cannot possibly believe, you tell them they must do what you just finished telling them was impossible for them to do, that they must turn from their sin and believe the gospel.

Now, that is messed up.

 

[Winman]

Funny, 1 Corinthians 6 says exactly the opposite...

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)​

If, as 1 Corinthians 6 says, the unrighteous won't inherit the Kingdom and then it identifies what it means to be unrighteous--being a sinner, then one probably needs to stop sinning to be saved. Or, more properly understood, one needs to take God's side against sin, not sin's side against God.

A true Christian cannot argue that he or she can sin all they want.

It is you that is lacking in comprehension here.

The Archangel

You are expecting a man with a broken leg to run. That leg has to heal before he can run.

It is you that does not see the folly of expecting a sinner to stop sinning.

 

[Iconoclast]

Funny, 1 Corinthians 6 says exactly the opposite...

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)​

If, as 1 Corinthians 6 says, the unrighteous won't inherit the Kingdom and then it identifies what it means to be unrighteous--being a sinner, then one probably needs to stop sinning to be saved. Or, more properly understood, one needs to take God's side against sin, not sin's side against God.

A true Christian cannot argue that he or she can sin all they want.

It is you that is lacking in comprehension here.The Archangel

Yes...:applause::thumbs: He always misses it. One thing is- he is very consistent:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Yes...:applause::thumbs: He always misses it. One thing is- he is very consistent:thumbs:

I am not missing anything, I am pointing out how foolish your doctrine is.

You believe it is impossible for men to repent or believe unless God regenerates them, and then in the next breath you tell that man to do what you just told him is impossible for him to do, to repent and believe.

If you can't see how messed up that is, you are in serious trouble.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

I am not missing anything, I am pointing out how foolish your doctrine is.

You believe it is impossible for men to repent or believe unless God regenerates them, and then in the next breath you tell that man to do what you just told him is impossible for him to do, to repent and believe.

If you can't see how messed up that is, you are in serious trouble.

Ain't that the truth.

Repentance is a change of mind,heart, and emotions about Sin, Self, and the Savior. Everyone must repent in 1 of these 3 areas to be saved, some have to repent of all 3 areas.

A person must repent of sin and change their mind about it, Jesus expressed this when he said it is better to cut of the hand and enter life maimed than to have two hands and to be cast into hell.

A Person must repent or change their mind about self, being that self is not good or righteous.

THis is best illustrated when Jesus spoke of the Prayer of the Pharisee and the Publican.

A person must repent or change their mind about the Savior.
The bible says if any man abide not in the doctrine of Christ he has not God.
Jesus said if ye don't believe that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.
So a JW or a Mormon would have to repent of their belief in the False Jesus of Mormonism and JW in order to be saved.

Repentance is simply a change of mind, heart, and attitude, it is not a work though.

However in the bible repentance is always followed by a change of action: For example the bible says many time that God repented, and these times are allows followed by God changing his course of action towards someone.

So true Repentance of Sin, Self, and the Savior will then produce an action, but this is only because Regeneration occurs at Repentance and then the Holy Spirit is then able to produce fruit.

Forsaking of Sin is a fruit of Repentance, it is not repentance in itself.

But a man who's fiance cheats on him, if he repents or changed his mind about marrying her, then he is probably not going to still marry her.

Unfortunately many people pray a sinners prayer, yet never repent of their sin.

Sin MUST be repented of to be saved, but Repentance is not an action, it is a changing of mind, it's a mental/emotional/heartfelt letting turning from sin, and turning to Jesus to save.

THis is best illustrated when Paul told the Thessalonians that they turned from idols, to the living God.

Salvation is a Turning TO Christ, But person cannot truly turn to Christ, until he repents from whatever is causing his back to be turned from Christ.

 

[evangelist6589]

Yes...:applause::thumbs: He always misses it. One thing is- he is very consistent:thumbs:

He is obsessed with this topic and won't debate any other subject. Sad..

 

[The Archangel]

You are expecting a man with a broken leg to run. That leg has to heal before he can run.

It is you that does not see the folly of expecting a sinner to stop sinning.

Of course, it's not me who wrote 1 Corinthians 6.... So, your argument is with Paul--and with Christ in Matthew 19:7-9. Does Paul expect a man with a broken leg to run? Does Christ?

Of course, your comprehension on this issue ran off its rails a long time ago. Those who hold to Lordship Salvation, for the most part, do not suggest or require that sinners stop sinning. Again, it's a matter of the heart. Is the heart desiring sin above Christ? Is the so-called Christian sinning all they want with no guilt or repentance? Is the so-called Christian making excuses for their sin rather than repenting? If that's the case, there's no fruit of repentance and that lack of fruit (observed over a period of time, not a snapshot of time) gives evidence that the heart is wrong and unsaved--because, after all, out of the heart flow all sorts of sin. The actions, after all, show the condition of the heart.

So, you can deny the necessity of repentance and the necessity to live a transformed life, but you do so at your own peril as you kick against the goads.

The Archangel

 

[evangelist6589]

I am not saying saved believers are not a new creature. It is you that believes a person must act like that new creature BEFORE they can get saved.

You think a person has to stop sinning to get saved, when we get saved to stop sinning. It is after you believe that you receive the Holy Spirit and are a new creature with a new heart that does not desire to sin.

You just have it completely backwards, that's all I'm saying.

False!!!! False!!! A depraved individual cannot follow God nor choose God unless God grants faith and repentance. A depraved individual loves his sin as a pig loves the mire. When God changes the individual he no longer loves sin and desires holiness.

 

[Winman]

False!!!! False!!! A depraved individual cannot follow God nor choose God unless God grants faith and repentance. A depraved individual loves his sin as a pig loves the mire. When God changes the individual he no longer loves sin and desires holiness.

I know that is what you believe. So why do you tell this depraved pig to repent when you know it is impossible for him to do so? Does that make sense?

Why would you tell any sinner to believe when it is impossible for them to do so?

See, Calvinism doesn't make sense. Now, being a non-Cal does, because we believe a person can both repent and believe on Jesus to be saved, so it makes perfect sense to preach to them to repent and believe.

It makes no sense to tell someone to repent and believe in Calvinism. They couldn't do it if they wanted to, and they cannot even want to. Nonsensical.