I believe we've debunked preterism.

[asterisktom]

Why do you think something so vital to the Jews would not be built considering the now are in possession of the land on which it will be built?

Whoa. What can be more vital to the Jews than coming to faith in the Messiah?

What is now conceivable a century ago was not.

Not a single prophecy of God will fail to be realized.

It is not that any of God's prophecies failed. It is that some of His pronouncements are contingent on man's response.Since we are in Ezekiel please consider 33:13-16:

"13 Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, yet if he trusts in his righteousness and does injustice, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered, but in his injustice that he has done he shall die.
14 Again, though I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ yet if he turns from his sin and does what is just and right,
15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has taken by robbery, and walks in the statutes of life, not doing injustice, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
16 None of the sins that he has committed shall be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he shall surely live."

There are other examples of God threatening - and are not His threats prophecies? - and then not following through, each time because of repentance. This happened to Ahab and it happened to the Ninevites.

God is not going to undo His finished work in Christ in order to fulfill your mistaken eschatology.

 

[prophecy70]

1. If I quoted a number of verses (about a dozen or more could be cited from these last chapters of Ezekiel) would you have bothered to read them?
2. Are you inferring that those other verses in Ezekiel would put the lie to the verse I quoted?

Surely you agree that the New Testament sheds light on the Old, and not the other way around?

They don't post much scripture, because not a lot of scripture backs what they say.

 

[prophecy70]

The Church is the Current Temple there will be no other.

exactly

Futurism looks for 4 temples, nothing like thinking Gods plan is building a new temple in rejection of his own son.

I just can't quite understand this.

 

[prophecy70]

Think pretierists fail to see that Jesus was addressing what was soon to happen, and what was far off, as they see it only as right now !

Think you fail to realize it was spoken to 1st century people, and not to you. He wasn't explaining what would happen soon and then 2000 plus years in the future, in the same chapter. The apostles didn't know he was leaving, why would they ask about a coming back?

 

[HankD]

What exactly am I picking and choosing?

Ezek. 46:9 “Thus says the Lord God: No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the people of Israel, shall enter my sanctuary."

Phil. 3:2-3" Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh"

You value a dubious interpretation from the Old Testament over a clear statement from the New?

Who is really doing the picking and choosing here?

Tom, the passage above is a misquote - it is actually Ezekiel 44:9.

AOBTW circumcision is now a widespread practice among the non-Jewish male population including Bible believing Christians - they are not "dogs" so the Philippians passage does not apply to them or in fact any true believer who worships in Spirit and truth.

HankD

 

[agedman]

OK so you can't

No, I gave you all of prophecy concerning the first advent was specific and accurate, therefore all the prophecy of the second advent is specific and accurate.

But what you want is me to do your work and post individual scripture statements.

Not happening, because to begin a person must agree that all prophecy is truthful and accurate. As it pertains Scriptures using metaphor, similie, and other parts of speech, they are clearly stated with the typical cues.

So, it is not that I can’t, I refuse to embarrass any who do not hold the validity based on proven accuracy.

 

[agedman]

1. If I quoted a number of verses (about a dozen or more could be cited from these last chapters of Ezekiel) would you have bothered to read them?
2. Are you inferring that those other verses in Ezekiel would put the lie to the verse I quoted?

Surely you agree that the New Testament sheds light on the Old, and not the other way around?

1) The OT is validated by the prophetic statements concerning the first advent being fulfilled.

2) why then would anyone pick and choose, and attempt to realign prophecy concerning the second advent into a scheme that doe spnot take the most literal form?

But have at it, chase after that which denies the most literal rendering of all Scripture.

I’m not troubled by one warned yet obstinately pursues.

 

[John of Japan]

They don't post much scripture, because not a lot of scripture backs what they say.

Um, I just posted a whole thread with many Scriptures about the reasons Christ will come, and got almost no preterist answers. Please, don't play this game, "I have more Scriptures than you."

 

[Iconoclast]

Easy,

Do you believe the law and the prophets were accurate concerning all that lead up to the first advent?

If you do, then why would you disbelieve any matter concerning the all that leads up to the second advent.

I did not give specific Scriptures, for what reason should such an old man’s fingers undergo such labor?

Rather, I use what the Lord gave to those of doubt in the first advent.

Search for yourself, just remember,

20But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.​

Could you help me understand this passage they said was fulfilled.\acts15
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

 

[asterisktom]

Tom, the passage above is a misquote - it is actually Ezekiel 44:9.

Thanks for the correction.

AOBTW circumcision is now a widespread practice among the non-Jewish male population including Bible believing Christians - they are not "dogs" so the Philippians passage does not apply to them or in fact any true believer who worships in Spirit and truth.

HankD

Not sure what AOBTW is. But more to the point, I am surprised at what you wrote. How does this relate to the circumcision in those Ezekiel passages?

Paul writes basically that circumcision and uncircumcision have no meaning anymore. Yet being uncircumcised in those Ezekiel verses certainly did have consequences. That can not be possible in any future scenario this side of Christ's fufillments.

 

[robycop3]

Full Preterism or Partial Preterism?

Both.

Jesus proves partial preterism false with these words:

Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So, if the great trib has already happened, Jesus is long-overdue!

I don't believe He's one nanosecond overdue. The great trib simply hasn't happened yet.

 

[robycop3]

Neither, He has just shown that he doesn't study the bible only Scofield notes, or those that teach them.

MMRRPP ! WRONG !

I study both the Bible and history/reality. I don't believe pie-in-the-sky as preterists do.

 

[robycop3]

The temple in Ezekiel would be an anachronism. Have you read carefully those chapters in Ezekiel? A return to, not only sacrifices for sin, but circumcision. And notice the consequences of those who do not obey.

All of this would be a return to the Levitical priesthood. Yet Hebrews clearly tells us that Christ fulfilled, did away with, all aspects of that system, The Melchizedekan Priesthood, with Christ as our High Priest, has forever deprecated the Levitical priesthood. (Let alone all the rest of the impossibilities like a Temple that could ever again be acceptable or pleasing in God's sight.)

The Orthodox Jews of today fully intend to build a new temple in Jerusalem & revive the Old Covenant style of worship. Jest ask any of them!

 

[robycop3]

If the Jews build another temple it will be in absolute defiance of the saving work of our LORD Jesus Christ. It will make no difference to my theology.

What do the Chileans believe? I thought Chile was a predominantly RC country.

I believe the OC prophets - All but Haggai, Zechariah & Malachi lived & prophesied before the Babylonian exile & the destruction of the first temple. The primary significance of their prophecies were to their hearers, warnings & encouragement to keep the faith, then prophesying the return & exile & rebuilding Jerusalem & the temple - that's what Ezekiel is prophesying in Eze. 40 onwards - and prophesying the coming of the Messiah into David's family as the eternal King of Israel. An Israel that will include redeemed Gentiles from all families on earth, and a kingdom not of this world that all believers are members of - including us.

I've never said the coming new temple will be an actual temple of God, but most of the world will view it as such, and the "man of sin" will commit the AOD there.

Now, for any man to declare himself to be God would be an abomination no matter where he did it, but Scripture says the 'beast' will do it in the temple.

 

[robycop3]

Um, I just posted a whole thread with many Scriptures about the reasons Christ will come, and got almost no preterist answers. Please, don't play this game, "I have more Scriptures than you."

We have REPEATEDLY asked the preterists here for some ***PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION*** that the events they SAY have occurred, HAVE actually already occurred, and we have not received one clear, concise answer!

These prophesied events are HUGE, STUPENDOUS happenings, and, had they already occurred, history would be packed with accounts of them!

 

[asterisktom]

The Orthodox Jews of today fully intend to build a new temple in Jerusalem & revive the Old Covenant style of worship. Jest ask any of them!

We are not speaking of a supposed temple in the works today, but the one described in Ezekiel, which is imagined by some here to be in the Milennium.

 

[asterisktom]

We have REPEATEDLY asked the preterists here for some ***PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION*** that the events they SAY have occurred, HAVE actually already occurred, and we have not received one clear, concise answer!

These prophesied events are HUGE, STUPENDOUS happenings, and, had they already occurred, history would be packed with accounts of them!

Those types of "huge stupendous happenings" were described also in the Old Testament. They didn't occur then either - not in the literal sense, the only sense you seem to recognize.

 

[Covenanter]

Um, I just posted a whole thread with many Scriptures about the reasons Christ will come, and got almost no preterist answers. Please, don't play this game, "I have more Scriptures than you."

John was particularly addressing full Preterists. If they are right, they are already enjoying to the full Jesus' wonderful promise:

John 14:1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”​

As are all who have died in the Lord.

I do look forward to the return of Jesus in glory for resurrection & judgment, & to bring about a New Heaven & New Earth, where righteousness dwells.

I'm quoting from John's a/m thread. To avoid confusion, I will put references to full Preterism in small print.

I'll quote the discussion without further comment.

From another thread -

Why ever should a belief that Jesus came in AD 70 for the purpose declared in his Olivet prophecy be a reason for sadly reflecting - "it's over and done with, nothing left (a very bleak position)."

We rejoice in that coming because -
Jesus kept his word then, despite the scoffers, so we can trust him for his many promises relating to his presence with us throughout this Gospel age. Hallelujah, Immanuel!

Jesus shouted FINISHED with his dying breath, & rent the temple veil from top to bottom. The Old Covenant, relying on "IF" obedience (Exodus 19) was perfectly fulfilled in & by the Lord Jesus Christ, & a glorious New & Eternal Covenant in his blood was established, BUT the Jews repaired the veil & the old corrupt administration continued. Was Jesus mistaken?

Peter preached in power at Pentecost & in the years following, but despite many thousands believing in Jesus, the result was vicious persecution. The old system maintained its power & continued to dominate.

The glorious Messianic Gospel promises to Israel by the Old Covenant prophets were being rejected by Israel as a nation & by many Jews wherever the Gospel was preached. The Old Covenant continued, with a vengeance.

So it seemed to first century Christian Jews & Gentile converts that the glorious new Messianic age promised was not happening properly. Even 30 years after Calvary Peter wrote:
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, ‘Where is this “coming” he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’

While Jerusalem & the temple remained, the scoffers were vindicated.

Of course we rejoice in that first century coming, for Jesus & the Apostles & all believers were vindicated. Jesus reigns without a rival, King of kings & Lord of lords.

That, as you are quick to assure us, did not end the matter. Christians live as foreigners in a corrupt world, surrounded by unbelievers. We have a Gospel for them, so that enemies become our brothers & sisters in Christ, & we hold out the glorious future hope, & warning, of his final coming at the end of time for resurrection, judgment, & the perfect righteousness of a New Heaven & New Earth.

I'll give Peter the last word:
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

JOJ
Your problem, Covenanter, is that you have missed the entire point of the thread, which is to show that there are are huge number of blessings connected with he 2nd Coming of Christ that are yet future.

And in regards to full preterism, there is far more to the 2nd Coming of Christ than any preterist can cogently discuss. (If you are not a full preterist, why object to my post?)

Why ever should a belief that Jesus came in AD 70 for the purpose declared in his Olivet prophecy be a reason for sadly reflecting - "it's over and done with, nothing left (a very bleak position)."

]
The position of the full preterist is indeed a very bleak position. I can't imagine ignoring all of the passages about the 2nd Coming except the Olivet Discourse, and remaining joyful at the 2nd Coming of Christ.

I see the future, physical 2nd Coming of Christ as a wonderful, complicated event full of blessings for the modern Christian. Full preterists do not agree, though a partial preteist might. I haven't yet figured out which you are, since you always post on the side of the preterists, and not on the side of the long expected blessed 2nd Coming.

I'll give Peter the last word:
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

JOJ
I do have to say, though, that this is a blessed reason for the 2nd Coming: a new Heaven and a new Earth, both of which we deeply need due to the effects of sin on the natural world.

But if, as the full preterist says, there is no future coming of Christ, then Peter is wrong.

 

[evangelist6589]

Both.

Jesus proves partial preterism false with these words:

Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So, if the great trib has already happened, Jesus is long-overdue!

I don't believe He's one nanosecond overdue. The great trib simply hasn't happened yet.

I do not think proving partial -preterism false is that easy.

 

[John of Japan]

Um, I just posted a whole thread with many Scriptures about the reasons Christ will come, and got almost no preterist answers. Please, don't play this game, "I have more Scriptures than you."

Truth be told, there was only one preterist attempt to actually answer the Scriptures on that thread about the 2nd Coming (though other Scriptures were brought up). But for the life of me I can't figure out that attempt. What in the world does "actual sheep stalls" have to do with John 14:1-3? Ah well, on to my Greek class.