I Felt I Should Drop in and Explain Why I Left

[Revmitchell]

Hello everyone,

I know it has been a long time. I have left the message board because my views on theology have changed drastically. I am now a member of the prayer and worship movement started by IHOPKC and Mike Bickle. I am currently attending a new church in Orlando that is a house of prayer, having left Baptist churches behind for now.

I have an amazing testimony of how I was plucked by God out of my classical cessationist theology and planted in the theology of the the international house of prayer Kansas City in a matter of weeks. I may end up sharing it later on this thread.

I don't really consider myself a non-Baptist though. That is because I still hold to the Baptist distinctives, for now. Although, I would probably only feel at home in a "Baptacostal" church at this point.

The main thing that convinced me to leave for the house of prayers was actually getting powerful spiritual gifts. I now speak in tongues, interpret tongues, perform miracles, have words of wisdom, prophetically intercede, prophetically sing, have prophetic dreams, have visions, have prophetic impressions, hear an audible prophetic voice, get the words of the Holy Spirit put into my mouth sometimes, and prophetically write theology, bible teachings, and foreign policy. All by His grace. I kid you not, I now do all of that in the last few months.

I have every confirmation I will ever need to prove the Charismatic movement is genuinely of God. Yet, I must warn that there are charlatans, false prophets, false teachers, and even false apostles that we must be wary of. A love of reading and researching the bible and an absolute fidelity to the bible are what I have found is needed to venture into this world and not be deceived. A testing spirit, not a critical spirit, but a spirit of testing everyone and everything is also needed.

I thank this board for nurturing me in the faith. However, I must point out that it seems we argue here for the sake of argument than really make any breakthrough on understanding truth. I learn far more going to church, studying the bible, praying, and using my spiritual gifts than coming on the board.

I do want to mention that I have given up my extreme judgmental-ism of those in the Church. I am trying to stop any desire to be divisive or schismatic. I even admit Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox are in fact Christians. I may disagree with a ton of their theology, but I see the presence of their salvation.

Thanks everyone,
Steven

If you ever need to talk I also live in the Orlando area

 

[atpollard]

This is a very sad thread. The Charismatic and Pentecostal movements are rife with heresy and demonic influence. To see an individual deluded by them is a grievous thing. May God bring to ruin those who have lead this thread's author into their error.

The enemy (demons and heretics) would have a far more difficult time if Baptists ever got their own houses of worship in order. The vast majority of Baptist 'worship' services that I have attended have felt far more like a funeral for a dead Savior than a celebration of a risen Savior. I sometimes wonder if the congregation actually knows HOW to sing ... they certainly demonstrate no indication that they have anything to shout for joy over.

 

[John of Japan]

If Steven is open to this, here are quotes about the nature of tongues from much more capable linguists than I am, men who have done actual research.

William Samarin researched modern tongues extensively, finding that they had no syntax or semantics, that they were "characterized by strings of usually simple syllables that are not matched systematically with any semantic system" (The New Charismatics, by Richard Quebedeaux, p. 202).

Linguist William Samarin observed Charismatics for five years, and said, "Glossalalia is indeed like language in some ways, but this is only because the speaker (unconsciously) wants it to be like language. Yet in spite of superficial similarities, glossalalia is fundamentally not language" (quoted in Charismatic Chaos, by John MacArthur, p. 278, from Samarin's book Tongues of Men and Angels, 227).

Wayne Oates, in "A Socio-Psychological Study of Glossalalia" (in Tongue Speaking in Biblical, Historical and Psychological Perspective), concluded that "Distortions of speech characteristic of early childhood are submerged as a child matures, but these distortions reappear in glossalalia when an individual tries to verbalize long-repressed religious convictions for the first time; he reverts to an early stage of communicative development" (ibid, 201).

Ongoing research by Paul de Lacy, who has examined 19 hours of tongues speaking: "So far, my research suggests that glossolalia has no lexicon (i.e. no words/morphemes), and by this no syntax, morphology, or semantics. It is essentially 'pure' phonology and phonetics." (http://www.pauldelacy.net/webpage/re...ossolalia.html).

"Of late, glossalalia has become increasingly the vogue with certain religious bodies, notably the Pentecostal groups, which attempt to repeat, for 'charismatic' purposes, the 'speaking in tongues' of the New Testament. The difference between glossalalia and creative word coinage lies in the fact that the former lacks a recognizable basis of both etymology and meaning" (Mario Pei, The Story of Language, p. 170; 1949 & 1965).

"glossalalia 'Speaking in tongues': i. e. uttering sounds under conditions of religious ecstasy that are believed, wrongly, to be in unknown languages" (Oxford Concise Dictionary of Linguistics, P. H. Matthews, p. 160).

Theologian Monroe Parker: "Tongues are baby talk."

 

[Steven Yeadon]

If you ever need to talk I also live in the Orlando area

Thank you for the offer, I doubt I will need to take you up on it though.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

John of Japan, I do respect your analysis and have struggled with it, but this is ultimately a matter of faith to me.

Ultimately I am getting something form someone when it comes to all of these new gifts. People don't just start getting impressions, new feelings, smells, visions, audible voices, etc. especially when on a ton of neuroleptics and having been declared very stable by the mental healthcare industry. Another thing is that all of the revelation I get makes sense on a reason level. If it was random noise it would not seem so intelligible, especially a method of interpretation that goes one word at a time and relies on supernatural visions to interpret at all.

I had to struggle with my former beliefs on this message board: That there is either a counterfeit holy spirit at work among Charismatics or the real Holy Spirit. I simply do not see the evidence in my own life and spiritual race and spiritual growth to think that I am talking to the devil pretending to be an angel of light.

Thus, everyone on this thread. If you want to sway me, you must bust my faith bubble. The issue is not whether this of my flesh, as I have no spiritual power as a human being to give myself any of these experiences. The issue is have I been taken in by a counterfeit holy spirit or am I, as I assume, interacting with the real Holy Spirit, who I believe is found in foolishness that shames the wise and learned.

 

[Reynolds]

The enemy (demons and heretics) would have a far more difficult time if Baptists ever got their own houses of worship in order. The vast majority of Baptist 'worship' services that I have attended have felt far more like a funeral for a dead Savior than a celebration of a risen Savior. I sometimes wonder if the congregation actually knows HOW to sing ... they certainly demonstrate no indication that they have anything to shout for joy over.

Unfortunately many Charismatics are in the ditch on the left hand side of the road. Its even sadder that many Baptists are in the ditch on the right hand side of the road.

 

[John of Japan]

John of Japan, I do respect your analysis and have struggled with it, but this is ultimately a matter of faith to me.

Ultimately I am getting something form someone when it comes to all of these new gifts. People don't just start getting impressions, new feelings, smells, visions, audible voices, etc. especially when on a ton of neuroleptics and having been declared very stable by the mental healthcare industry. Another thing is that all of the revelation I get makes sense on a reason level. If it was random noise it would not seem so intelligible, especially a method of interpretation that goes one word at a time and relies on supernatural visions to interpret at all.

I had to struggle with my former beliefs on this message board: That there is either a counterfeit holy spirit at work among Charismatics or the real Holy Spirit. I simply do not see the evidence in my own life and spiritual race and spiritual growth to think that I am talking to the devil pretending to be an angel of light.

Thus, everyone on this thread. If you want to sway me, you must bust my faith bubble. The issue is not whether this of my flesh, as I have no spiritual power as a human being to give myself any of these experiences. The issue is have I been taken in by a counterfeit holy spirit or am I, as I assume, interacting with the real Holy Spirit, who I believe is found in foolishness that shames the wise and learned.

If your faith is not based on the Word of God, it is counterfeit. Rom. 10:17--"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

To me, here is the key. If you are truly filled with the Spirit, you will see people saved. That is Biblical. Acts 4:31--"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness."

The Bible goes dead set opposite to the Charismatic/Pentecostal teaching that tongues are the sign of the fullness of the Holy Spirit. It is not tongues, it is power in soul-winning.

So I ask you: has your gift on tongues given you boldness in witnessing and helped you win anyone to Christ? If not, it is fake.

For the correct perspective on the fullness of the Holy Spirit, I highly recommend The Holy Spirit: Who He Is and What He Does, by R. A. Torrey, and The Power of Pentecost and the Fullness of the Spirit, by John R. Rice.

If you refuse to do that, do your own Bible study. I dare you to read through the entire NT, noting every single occurrence where the Holy Spirit and tongues occur. If you do this honestly you will discover much. (I did this myself from the OT and NT both.) If your perspective is nothing but the Charismatic perspective, you are cheating yourself and not being a Berean.

 

[Reynolds]

John of Japan, I do respect your analysis and have struggled with it, but this is ultimately a matter of faith to me.

Ultimately I am getting something form someone when it comes to all of these new gifts. People don't just start getting impressions, new feelings, smells, visions, audible voices, etc. especially when on a ton of neuroleptics and having been declared very stable by the mental healthcare industry. Another thing is that all of the revelation I get makes sense on a reason level. If it was random noise it would not seem so intelligible, especially a method of interpretation that goes one word at a time and relies on supernatural visions to interpret at all.

I had to struggle with my former beliefs on this message board: That there is either a counterfeit holy spirit at work among Charismatics or the real Holy Spirit. I simply do not see the evidence in my own life and spiritual race and spiritual growth to think that I am talking to the devil pretending to be an angel of light.

Thus, everyone on this thread. If you want to sway me, you must bust my faith bubble. The issue is not whether this of my flesh, as I have no spiritual power as a human being to give myself any of these experiences. The issue is have I been taken in by a counterfeit holy spirit or am I, as I assume, interacting with the real Holy Spirit, who I believe is found in foolishness that shames the wise and learned.

I am a Baptist, but I believe the gifts of The Spirit operate today as they did in the early Church. Having said that, I have seen much lunacy and fleshly nonsense carried out and attributed to The Spirit. Be careful. Always ask: 1. Does this line up with scripture? 2. Does this glorify God or man?

 

[John of Japan]

I had to struggle with my former beliefs on this message board: That there is either a counterfeit holy spirit at work among Charismatics or the real Holy Spirit. I simply do not see the evidence in my own life and spiritual race and spiritual growth to think that I am talking to the devil pretending to be an angel of light.

Here is a testimony, which I have in tract form, of a good Baptist lady who was deceived into speaking in tongues and then realized that her tongues were demon-lead: The Bondage of Deceit. (I have it in tract form, so I recommend it, but I do not know about the rest of the material on the site.)

If you are filled with the Spirit, you will have the fruit of the Spirit, not tongues: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control. This is a description of the Holy Spirit Himself. If you do not find yourself growing in all of these areas, it is not from the Holy Spirit.

 

[One Baptism]

I would love to answer your question, but I guess I missed the question in there. Could you restate it?

Sure:

"... Fair enough. Second inquiry.

The utterances which proceeds from your mouth, and of which you have lettered some of in this very forum, have you considered them in the light of Acts 20:30 KJB, and ask yourself, "How do I test that which is spoken to see whether or not it is holy or perversant; truth or error"?

Acts 20:30 KJB - Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.​

For instance, there have been such persons, under the influence of a spirit/s, and spake forth many things, and at those specific times, they were actually languages spoken/known by mankind upon the earth, and they themselves did not recognize what they were saying, but were simply speaking by the spirit/s, and it comes to be that a person within range of this audio, could understand what was said, being their native tongue, and knew that the other person/s was/were actually blaspheming [not praising] God [JEHOVAH].

Others, utter things that is/are completely unknown amongst all mankind as a language, and have no sentence structure, syntax, distinguishable verbs, nouns, adjectives, proper names, pronouns, punctuative tone, etc., but were simply a string [or broken strings] of repeated [or non-repeated] gutteral noises, or were mixes [amalgamations] of known words in the varied tongues of mankind, all of which were non-sensical, and unordered [chaotic, without form and void [empty of meaning], and thus brought only confusion and darkness to the persons and congregations participating therein, and though for a time a spirit of exhiliration was upon them, later a deeper depression would settle upon them, looking for the next arousal to new heights by this sensual stimulus].

Therefore, when you say that you both speak and translate [you are saying that you have the gifts to speak and translate] what foundational corroboration do you use to test it/them, and what are the other witnesses to substantiate it/them, that you have spoken an language/tongue, and that what was spoken/uttered indeed translates to what you personally say it does, as it is written, "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." ..." - I Felt I Should Drop in and Explain Why I Left​

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Here is a testimony, which I have in tract form, of a good Baptist lady who was deceived into speaking in tongues and then realized that her tongues were demon-lead: The Bondage of Deceit. (I have it in tract form, so I recommend it, but I do not know about the rest of the material on the site.)

I will read the testimony.

If you refuse to do that, do your own Bible study. I dare you to read through the entire NT, noting every single occurrence where the Holy Spirit and tongues occur. If you do this honestly you will discover much. (I did this myself from the OT and NT both.) If your perspective is nothing but the Charismatic perspective, you are cheating yourself and not being a Berean.

I must do this you are right.

The Bible goes dead set opposite to the Charismatic/Pentecostal teaching that tongues are the sign of the fullness of the Holy Spirit. It is not tongues, it is power in soul-winning.

This is true. Tongues and revelation must lead to the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

So I ask you: has your gift on tongues given you boldness in witnessing and helped you win anyone to Christ? If not, it is fake.

To me, here is the key. If you are truly filled with the Spirit, you will see people saved. That is Biblical. Acts 4:31--"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness."

This is the ultimate test of the prophetic book I am writing right now. If those teachings win me no souls and change no lives, then it was counterfeit. That will take a while to get to though, as I am writing the book still.

 

[One Baptism]

You tell us that "Meenah" signifies: "terror with the feeling of terror given."

Later on you say "Meenah" signifies: "I felt peace around me, Peace"

Huh?

The phonetical utterances themselves, in such cases, do not ever have inherent consistent meaning or definition, but rather the feelings in that moment define the utterances, since the same phonetically given utterance is defined by each momentous feeling or emotion, and so there is no single definition for any given utterance. Each utterance, is an ever shifting, changing landscape, whose basis is in subjective feeling/emotion/sensation, being worked upon by a spirit/s. Even exactly repeated utterances in direct succession can have widely differing [subjective] meaning depending upon the persons emotional state at the time. It is basically raw emotionalism, pouring forth, that does not base its validity in concrete word [Bible].

Psalms 37:30 KJB - The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.

Proverbs 8:6 KJB - Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

Proverbs 8:7 KJB - For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

Proverbs 23:16 KJB - Yea, my reins shall rejoice, when thy lips speak right things.

Isaiah 45:19 KJB - I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

Malachi 2:6 KJB - The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.​

So, in such a case as this, where the outward phonetics, though seemingly of the same, are and will always be different, because it does not seek outside validity, a set definitional standard, it does not seek through the external written text of the Bible [KJB] for its justification, but is the internal workings of the heart, brought out through the mouth, by overflowing sensualism, by manipulation of the emotional core by a spirit/s:

Proverbs 4:23 KJB - Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

Matthew 12:34 KJB - O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Luke 6:45 KJB - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Jude 1:16 KJB - These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.​

 

[Yeshua1]

He needs the Word of God, not another group of men.


God bless.

Actually, he needs the body of Christ, as jesus works in and thru his local assemblies now! That is why needs to get into a good bible believing church instead of the bad one now with!

 

[Yeshua1]

I have had the ability to speak in tongues for years. It began in early 2013 when I received my baptism of the Holy Spirit alone in my apartment. It was an amazing experience. There was no coaching or even build up.

I suffered severe schizophrenia from mid 2013-2016, due to my psychiatrist testing me without medication due to perceived side effects of my neuroleptics. It took three years to stabilize and it only happened when I came to Jesus on blind faith instead of the liberal Christianity I had believed for 12 years. However, I never lost the ability to speak or sing in tongues.

I turned on my gift and later became a classical cessationist due to this message board, but I was convicted of believing the gift of tongues I was given was Satanic in origin and started using it again a few months ago.

Really, I had the wake up call of realizing that I was possibly blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That is if the gifts I received at my baptism of the Holy Spirit in 2013 were really of the Holy Spirit. I receive genuine spiritual power, and it is easy to go to a Charismatic church and use my gifts to show this. It's just is this power of Satan or the Holy Spirit? I go with the Holy Spirit now, whereas before I thought it was Satan. The argument that gets me is from scripture, Satan loves dividing his kingdom against itself if these gifts come from him, they positively impact my life and the lives of other Christians, which means they don't come from Satan.

The reason this sounds so "I" and "my" is that the fruit of the gifts is in the content generated for the people communicated to. Tongues is so personal because it is not normally edifying on its own. I'm not using my revelatory gifts to edify you, comfort you, or encourage you; but instead explaining that I have them. At a Charismatic church that knows what they are doing, it is about Jesus and the Father through the exercise of the gifts to God's glory, His fame. That's because people have the trust to receive and test what is given. Now of course, we can be greedy for more experiences of the Holy Spirit, but really is that bad? Its not like panting for more of God's presence is a sin, so I will abide this "selfishness." Just as long as there is self-control and not a blind acceptance of what is given but serious testing of it, both can be ignored, which is a problem to be addressed.

Just curious as to where in the NT you can find that Baptism in the Holy Spirit and tongues as its evidence?

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for the advice, I agree theologically with you, but it is good to be reminded of it while surrounded by Pentecostals. He just trusts me with a crazy number of gifts, that I am trying to use to the maximum benefit, reminded it must be for His fame, not mine at all. We are just evil, undeserving slaves just doing our duty.

Do you or anyone there there claim to be modern day Apostle/Prophets than? Or to have gifts to heal and do miracles than?
And what would be the reason for God to give additional revelation, as we now have the completed written word?

 

[Yeshua1]

Speaking as a linguist, this is not a language. You are simply repeating sounds. For example, you have "Mee-nuh" as meaning "terrible beast," "prowling beast," and "peace." It is extremely unlikely that one lexical unit with two morphemes would mean two things so completely different. They could be homonyms, but I find that unlikely.

Also, you have "Ee" as "you," and then "Mah" as "You are," and then "Suh-Muh-Nuh-Nuh" as "And finish your race." It would be extremely strange for a language to have three different words for "you," unless it had respect language like Japanese and Tibetan, but the semantic content of your supposed phrases do not allow for respect language.

Also, note that you are simply giving words with some kind of meaning, and then making up sentences out of separated clauses and phrases. That is not how God gave the Bible in the original languages, and I find it incredibly unlikely that God would reveal things to you that way. There is nothing in the Bible that is similar.

In Acts 2, God gave distinct, understandable, historical, contemporary languages. If God has given you a true "prayer language" or whatever you want to call it. it will be something similar, and you will be able to tell us exactly what language it is. That is what a Biblical tongue is: "And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?" Acts 2:8).

I could say much more, but surely this is enough.

There is NO example of the personal tongue language in Bible, and all of those times tongues happened was the person was speaking an unlearned but real language. They were used in evangelism /missionary outreach, was would be where I suspect God ONLY would be using them today, if still are in use!

 

[Yeshua1]

There have been several people to hit the funny button on several posts. Of all the posts on boards in this world this thread is the least appropriate to do such a thing. This childishness that leads one to do such a thing in a thread like this is astounding. The abuse of the funny button as a tool to show disapproval of posts in and of itself is also childish.

Our friend who posted this OP is in dire trouble, as he is now tied into very bad theology, and even worse, he is moving away from the security afforded to him in a real bible based assembly, and he will not be getting helped by God while stuck among those fasle teachers!

 

[Jerome]

Yeshua1/Dachaser1/JesusFan, you said yesterday that the book of Acts "was meant to be showing how how it was to be for all time forward!"

 

[Yeshua1]

John of Japan, I do respect your analysis and have struggled with it, but this is ultimately a matter of faith to me.

Ultimately I am getting something form someone when it comes to all of these new gifts. People don't just start getting impressions, new feelings, smells, visions, audible voices, etc. especially when on a ton of neuroleptics and having been declared very stable by the mental healthcare industry. Another thing is that all of the revelation I get makes sense on a reason level. If it was random noise it would not seem so intelligible, especially a method of interpretation that goes one word at a time and relies on supernatural visions to interpret at all.

I had to struggle with my former beliefs on this message board: That there is either a counterfeit holy spirit at work among Charismatics or the real Holy Spirit. I simply do not see the evidence in my own life and spiritual race and spiritual growth to think that I am talking to the devil pretending to be an angel of light.

Thus, everyone on this thread. If you want to sway me, you must bust my faith bubble. The issue is not whether this of my flesh, as I have no spiritual power as a human being to give myself any of these experiences. The issue is have I been taken in by a counterfeit holy spirit or am I, as I assume, interacting with the real Holy Spirit, who I believe is found in foolishness that shames the wise and learned.

The real question is , what scripture do you use to autheticate your experiences? The Holy Spirit does NOT give anything other than real languages int eh gift of tongues, and there is NO Baptism in HS in the Scriptures!

 

[Revmitchell]

Our friend who posted this OP is in dire trouble, as he is now tied into very bad theology, and even worse, he is moving away from the security afforded to him in a real bible based assembly, and he will not be getting helped by God while stuck among those fasle teachers!

yes its very serious and the behavior I described is very inappropriate in this thread as it is in any thread.