Good question, yes I have considered that my gift may be counterfeit. I have been able to speak in tongues since early 2013, and for a time I did consider my gift counterfeit and of the devil. I have changed my mind though, because I saw no way in which Satan could benefit by speaking in tongues since I tend to keep it private and see no reason all must have tongues nor do I believe tongues fills a Holy Spirit sized void in me. However, I do have to be careful as you say.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
I Felt I Should Drop in and Explain Why I Left
- Thread starter Steven Yeadon
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Good question, yes I have considered that my gift may be counterfeit. I have been able to speak in tongues since early 2013, and for a time I did consider my gift counterfeit and of the devil. I have changed my mind though, because I saw no way in which Satan could benefit by speaking in tongues since I tend to keep it private and see no reason all must have tongues nor do I believe tongues fills a Holy Spirit sized void in me. However, I do have to be careful as you say.
Therefore, when you say that you both speak and translate [you are saying that you have the gifts to speak and translate] what foundational corroboration do you use to test it/them, and what are the other witnesses to substantiate it/them, that you have spoken an language/tongue, and that what was spoken/uttered indeed translates to what you personally say it does, as it is written, "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." ..." - I Felt I Should Drop in and Explain Why I Left
I haven't been applying a strong test lately, but John of Japan summed up the fruit of the Holy Spirit well, so I can check myself against his advice form now on.
One Baptism
Active Member
I would say that satan may destroy en masse or in individual [Judas, King Saul, etc], and therefore, the mere fact that it is "private" is not safety. Thousands, millions, have "private" sins, practices, etc, which they do not make public. These private sins, practices, may not destroy en masse, but they do still work the destruction of the individual. Satan looks to pick off the individual from the flock, even as a lion.Good question, yes I have considered that my gift may be counterfeit. I have been able to speak in tongues since early 2013, and for a time I did consider my gift counterfeit and of the devil. I have changed my mind though, because I saw no way in which Satan could benefit by speaking in tongues since I tend to keep it private and see no reason all must have tongues nor do I believe tongues fills a Holy Spirit sized void in me. However, I do have to be careful as you say.
Also, Jesus, said nothing in secret:
John 18:20 KJB - Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
Just curious as to where in the NT you can find that Baptism in the Holy Spirit and tongues as its evidence?
Thanks for your concern Yeshua, I know you are friend along with many people on this board.
I personally don't believe that the Pentecostal idea of Baptism by the Holy Spirit that always leads to tongues is accurate. There can be Holy Spirit-less "Christians" but only because they are counterfeit (Romans 8:9). Also tongues is only a spiritual gift, one of many, and is not given to all.
Do you or anyone there there claim to be modern day Apostle/Prophets than? Or to have gifts to heal and do miracles than?
And what would be the reason for God to give additional revelation, as we now have the completed written word?
Yes, my church believes in apostolic ministry and prophetic ministry. I am still trying to understand apostolic ministry but I know that anyone without any clearly supernatural gifts at all is not one (2 Corinthians 12:12).
As for why prophetic ministry is still around, I believe the Holy Spirit continues to edify, which is to improve morally and intellectually, the whole Church; and that he comforts and encourages believers today. I also believe the Holy Spirit can guide our witness to others so that we speak to their hearts. All of these are the biblical reasons for prophecy. I do not personally believe prophecy deviates from a strictly scriptural set of functions.
I wouldn't worry too much, in two years I will be able to tell whether this was counterfeit or not given John of Japan's advice. I only need prayers to discern rightly now that I am warned, and for ways to convince the side actually against the truth to accept a truth they do not want.
There are no personal prayer tongues, so what langue is the Lord giveing you to give to others? is it in an evagelism outreach, or what?Good question, yes I have considered that my gift may be counterfeit. I have been able to speak in tongues since early 2013, and for a time I did consider my gift counterfeit and of the devil. I have changed my mind though, because I saw no way in which Satan could benefit by speaking in tongues since I tend to keep it private and see no reason all must have tongues nor do I believe tongues fills a Holy Spirit sized void in me. However, I do have to be careful as you say.
There is no such thing in Bible as personal prayer tongues, so what real language has he given to you, and how have you been using it for Him?Good question, yes I have considered that my gift may be counterfeit. I have been able to speak in tongues since early 2013, and for a time I did consider my gift counterfeit and of the devil. I have changed my mind though, because I saw no way in which Satan could benefit by speaking in tongues since I tend to keep it private and see no reason all must have tongues nor do I believe tongues fills a Holy Spirit sized void in me. However, I do have to be careful as you say.
When you say Apostles ansd prophets, do they give additional revelations from God to their church? Do they do miracles/healings as Apostles did? Do they speak and teach infallible?Thanks for your concern Yeshua, I know you are friend along with many people on this board.
I personally don't believe that the Pentecostal idea of Baptism by the Holy Spirit that always leads to tongues is accurate. There can be Holy Spirit-less "Christians" but only because they are counterfeit (Romans 8:9). Also tongues is only a spiritual gift, one of many, and is not given to all.
Yes, my church believes in apostolic ministry and prophetic ministry. I am still trying to understand apostolic ministry but I know that anyone without any clearly supernatural gifts at all is not one (2 Corinthians 12:12).
As for why prophetic ministry is still around, I believe the Holy Spirit continues to edify, which is to improve morally and intellectually, the whole Church; and that he comforts and encourages believers today. I also believe the Holy Spirit can guide our witness to others so that we speak to their hearts. All of these are the biblical reasons for prophecy. I do not personally believe prophecy deviates from a strictly scriptural set of functions.
I wouldn't worry too much, in two years I will be able to tell whether this was counterfeit or not given John of Japan's advice. I only need prayers to discern rightly now that I am warned, and for ways to convince the side actually against the truth to accept a truth they do not want.
One Baptism
Active Member
There have been instances upon earth where languages have been outright created in phantasy [sci-fi, science falsely so called], such as:
6 Fictional Languages You Can Really Learn
However, even in these sci-fictional/phantasy languages, they are based in real language structure, syntax, verbage, endings, nouns, verbs, predicates, subjects, etc.
6 Fictional Languages You Can Really Learn
Elvin and Dwarvish [etc] in Lord of the Rings, by Roman Catholic Tolkien
Klingon, Vulcan, etc in Star Trek, by kabbalist pornographist Leonard Nemoy
Lapine in Watership Down, etc
Gnomish in Dragon Lance, etc
Worlds I used to live and breath in, in the days of my madness, and was even 'creating' [inspired of the devil] a language, in the sci-fi/phantasy realm which was ever changing, called [well I won't say, let it remain buried], including an entire world structure [I can only describe it like how others received such images, and visions for their worlds, whole things were coming to me then, it would have been more deadly than what I have mentioned above, there were plans to go from print to an entire video, movies series and more].Klingon, Vulcan, etc in Star Trek, by kabbalist pornographist Leonard Nemoy
Lapine in Watership Down, etc
Gnomish in Dragon Lance, etc
However, even in these sci-fictional/phantasy languages, they are based in real language structure, syntax, verbage, endings, nouns, verbs, predicates, subjects, etc.
One Baptism
Active Member
It is written:
Therefore, your doctrine, teaching, theology, and practices must be found to be based in God's Sanctuary, or it is counterfeit to it, for we are not ignorant of satan's devices, for all he does is, is to twist that which is in the sanctuary itself, in everything.
Jesus said:
Psalms 77:13 KJB - Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?
Therefore, your doctrine, teaching, theology, and practices must be found to be based in God's Sanctuary, or it is counterfeit to it, for we are not ignorant of satan's devices, for all he does is, is to twist that which is in the sanctuary itself, in everything.
Jesus said:
John 14:6 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 6:35 KJB - And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:51 KJB - I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
In the sanctuary, there was "bread" on the table of Shewbread, on the sides of the north, which represented Father and Son, upon their throne in the Holy Place, even the word of God. It was always in proper order, in two stacks of 6, every piece in their proper place. God is also the Alpha and Omega. Thus, the same way with words, having proper beginning and ending, all connected within, one to the other. Furthermore, in the Most Holy place, we see the Ark of God [the Throne of God in the Most Holy Place], within which, was the Ten Commandments, the very "word" of God, again, in proper order, proper sphere, to God first, and to mankind second, with clear delineations. Each clearly discernible, nothing confusing, always shedding light. The 7 branch candlestick, being light was to be properly filled, and to be filled with a specific item, not what we choose of ourselves, or what we feel like filling it with. Same with the altar of incense, for prayer, it was to be properly cared for, and the incense itself, was to be properly made, in specific mixture and ratio, and nothing else was to be used, in any other mixture. Even the sacrifices in the courtyard reveal something to us in matters of speech [only that which is acceptable to God may be given, and all else is to be burned up, cut away, therefore let our speech be truth, unmingled with error, etc]. Even the ordered and structured Heavens themselves tell us something of speech, each with definite purpose, each having their proper and distinctly defined name/character [Psalms 19:2 KJB - Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. & Psalms 147:4 KJB - He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.]. The same with language, in song, prayer, speech:John 6:35 KJB - And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:51 KJB - I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Colossians 4:6 KJB - Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
Last edited:
When you say Apostles ansd prophets, do they give additional revelations from God to their church? Do they do miracles/healings as Apostles did? Do they speak and teach infallible?
I do not personally know any apostolic ministers as far as I know, the only thing I could quote would be books in Charismatic circles on the subject. However, you raise valid points about testing anyone who calls them-self a personal representative of Jesus Christ on earth.
Does your group claim to have Apostles/prophets in their midst?I do not personally know any apostolic ministers as far as I know, the only thing I could quote would be books in Charismatic circles on the subject. However, you raise valid points about testing anyone who calls them-self a personal representative of Jesus Christ on earth.
Does your group claim to have Apostles/prophets in their midst?
Apostles no, prophets yes.
Do the prophets give additional revelations from God, are they infallible? Do they predict the future?Apostles no, prophets yes.
lexicon is approx. fifty words, several were used twice:
Ah’Mah
Ee 2
ee-Nah-Trah
Bah
Veerah
Pah
Pah-ee-ah
Pah-Nee-Ah
Mah 2
Mah-Nah-Krah
Mah-Nah-Nah
Mah-Nee
Mah-trah
Mahdrah 2
Maraah
Maru
Maya
Meenah
MeeNuh
Mee’nah
Mee-Nah
Mee’nuh 2
Mee’Nuh
Mee-nuh 2
Mee-Rah
Moe-Boo-Nah
Moo-Goo
Tah
teh
Ter-rah-Bah-Bah-Bah
Ter-rah’bluh
Tree-Mee’Ah
Nah
Nah-Krih
Nah-Mee-ur
Nee-Mah
No
Suh-Muh-Nuh-Nuh
Loo-Bee-Bah-Nah
rah’mah
Cuh-Nah-Nah 2
Cor-aih
Cor-rey-ah
Kor-rrr-ree-ah
Koo-Ree-Ah
Kohrrah
Korrah
Kah
Keeah
Let's see it...
How can you translate gibberish?
It is not tongues/languages it is gibberish. There is not a plural of gibberish.
As someone already said there were those in the past there were those who spoke in real recognised languages. In France in the 17th century there were those known as the French Prophets. There were those mainly children who prophesied in good French even though "in their natural state, they would not know it knowing only their regional language" probably the Ocitan Language. (Languedoc, the language of OC Langue in French is Language and also tongue)
One of the child prophets is said to have prophesied in good French even though it had not learned to speak, or "go by itself". Warnings, by Elias Marion one of the French Prophets, English edition 1705.
Extracts from the above can be found in Modern Claims to the Extraordinary gifts of the Spirit, by Rev Wm Goode 1833. Republished in recent years under the title of Charismatic Confusion.
A Baptist Pastor I know, said he had been in the Pentecostal Charismatic movement for fifteen years, and had attended hundreds of healing meetings and had never seen any healings .
Do the prophets give additional revelations from God, are they infallible? Do they predict the future?
Revelation: yes.
However, it is to edify, which is to improve morally and intellectually, the whole Church; comfort and encourage believers today. I also believe the Holy Spirit can guide our witness to others so that we speak to their hearts. All of these are the biblical reasons for prophecy. I do not personally believe prophecy deviates from a strictly scriptural set of functions.
Infallible: No.
We are told to weigh and test all that we are told by prophetic people. That said, the number of incorrect words of prophecy is maybe 10% in my history at this church.
Predict the future: Yes.
I can't remember one prophetic word predicting the future that came up short entirely.
In fact, it was the amazing ability to predict the future and present with 90%+ accuracy that makes me believe I have found the real Holy Spirit and not a counterfeit.
2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
the scriptures state that one must be 100 % accurate though!In fact, it was the amazing ability to predict the future and present with 90%+ accuracy that makes me believe I have found the real Holy Spirit and not a counterfeit.
2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
I worry about that verse for all of us in the Church. I am no expert on the Church, and I admit it is a possibility I am being duped by a counterfeit holy spirit. I prayed the prayer to get out of being duped if I am. That is epic protection as far as I am concerned. If I am wrong He will lead me out. If I am right He will keep me here. All as long as I am teachable.
One Baptism
Active Member
Then if you will do a brother a favour? Go to the Bible [preferrably KJB, use a KJ Concordance if you have to], and pray before beginning, asking God for light, truth and the Holy Spirit to lead you to those places therein where it speaks about speech, language, tongues, tongue, mouth, lips, chords, instruments [your voice is a stringed instrument, and a wind instrument], teeth, written, write, epistle, prayer, etc, and study every text on these things, until you have absolute conclusion from God's own word, believing that which is written, from Alpha [Genesis] to Omega [Revelation], which was given by holy men as they spake by the Holy Spirit. If you do this in true sincerity of humble heart, you cannot be led astray, but will be guided rightly. Will you do this brother?I worry about that verse for all of us in the Church. I am no expert on the Church, and I admit it is a possibility I am being duped by a counterfeit holy spirit. I prayed the prayer to get out of being duped if I am. That is epic protection as far as I am concerned. If I am wrong He will lead me out. If I am right He will keep me here. All as long as I am teachable.
John of Japan, I do respect your analysis and have struggled with it, but this is ultimately a matter of faith to me.
Ultimately I am getting something form someone when it comes to all of these new gifts. People don't just start getting impressions, new feelings, smells, visions, audible voices, etc. especially when on a ton of neuroleptics and having been declared very stable by the mental healthcare industry. Another thing is that all of the revelation I get makes sense on a reason level. If it was random noise it would not seem so intelligible, especially a method of interpretation that goes one word at a time and relies on supernatural visions to interpret at all.
I had to struggle with my former beliefs on this message board: That there is either a counterfeit holy spirit at work among Charismatics or the real Holy Spirit. I simply do not see the evidence in my own life and spiritual race and spiritual growth to think that I am talking to the devil pretending to be an angel of light.
Thus, everyone on this thread. If you want to sway me, you must bust my faith bubble. The issue is not whether this of my flesh, as I have no spiritual power as a human being to give myself any of these experiences. The issue is have I been taken in by a counterfeit holy spirit or am I, as I assume, interacting with the real Holy Spirit, who I believe is found in foolishness that shames the wise and learned.
I once picked up a book in a bookstore, entitled Charismatic Renewal. There were chapters on CR in various christian sects and even one on Charismatic renewal amongst Muslims.
Ecstatic "tongues" are not confined to so called christian sects but are also well known in Pagan religions, particularly Roman Catholics.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.