I have to know. What changed Billy's mind (Graham)

[Thomas Helwys]

I don't know, I think he is walking on a slippery slope. I have heard many opinions, but I haven't seen one scripture backing them up. In fact, I see the opposite from Jesus. I am the way, says Jesus, no man comes to the Father but by me. That is pretty straightforward, so I prefer to believe Jesus over man's opinion. If not, then why be a Christian at all? Believe in any God you want and just be sincere and God will overlook your idolatry. I don't thinks so.

I don't believe that at all, and neither does anyone who holds to what Mr. Graham is saying.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Yes, there ARE people who REALLY believe that all the millions/billions who have lived since the beginning of time and never heard of Jesus will go to hell-----namely ME!!! And I seriously doubt I have the only horse in the race!!!!:saint::saint::type:

So, you believe God created all those people for no other reason than to send them to hell? If they never had opportunity to hear of Christ, how could they be saved then? If they had no chance to be saved, then that is saying what I wrote in my first sentence, is it not?

 

[Mexdeaf]

Yes, there ARE people who REALLY believe that all the millions/billions who have lived since the beginning of time and never heard of Jesus will go to hell-----namely ME!!! And I seriously doubt I have the only horse in the race!!!!:saint::saint::type:

My horse is there also... HOWEVER-

We must remember that before Jesus came, there were those who believed and trusted God's promise of a future Redeemer and were saved by their faith in that promise although they never heard the name Jesus Christ.

But NOW- "there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12

 

[Mexdeaf]

So, you believe God created all those people for no other reason than to send them to hell? If they never had opportunity to hear of Christ, how could they be saved then? If they had no chance to be saved, then that is saying what I wrote in my first sentence, is it not?

God created them to glorify Him- some do so by being elected to eternal life and some do so by suffering eternal damnation.

 

[Bronconagurski]

I don't believe that at all, and neither does anyone who holds to what Mr. Graham is saying.

Ok, fair enough, but what is he saying? Is a man that worships idols responsible for his actions if he dies without hearing the gospel? You seem to think he is not. Where does that man go, heaven or hell?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

God created them to glorify Him- some do so by being elected to eternal life and some do so by suffering eternal damnation.

And that is Calvinist garbage.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Ok, fair enough, but what is he saying? Is a man that worships idols responsible for his actions if he dies without hearing the gospel? You seem to think he is not. Where does that man go, heaven or hell?

We are all responsible for our actions.

What if someone lived before Jesus and sought to know the truth about God and our existence, and that person tried to live by the teachings that Jesus later demonstrated. What happens to such a person after death? Is this person automatically hellbound for eternity?

 

[Monster]

Hmmm...I always kind fell into the thinking that God is more than adequate to read the hearts of all men. And while I believe that it's unlikely that many, if any are saved without hearing the specific Gospel of Jesus Christ, I do think that there is merit in the possibility of a proper response to "Christ revealed in/through creation" leading to accountability one way or the other.

Scriptures;

John 1 1-5 - Isn't this a clear declaration that Christ is imprinted in some identifiable way in all of creation. I am by no stretch advocating any form of pantheism here, just Christ revealed throughout all that's been created.

Which leads to Romans 1 and more specifically, Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

It pretty clearly states that the probable eternal destiny of man dying without hearing of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is hell. But, it also implies that God in his infinite wisdom and grace, is able to judge a man's heart, once again, based on his response to the revealed Creation of and through Christ.

This is more or less thinking and wrestling through scriptures aloud. I've no desire to argue about it or get into a tussle over Cal's five.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Hmmm...I always kind fell into the thinking that God is more than adequate to read the hearts of all men. And while I believe that it's unlikely that many, if any are saved without hearing the specific Gospel of Jesus Christ, I do think that there is merit in the possibility of a proper response to "Christ revealed in/through creation" leading to accountability one way or the other.

Scriptures;

John 1 1-5 - Isn't this a clear declaration that Christ is imprinted in some identifiable way in all of creation. I am by no stretch advocating any form of pantheism here, just Christ revealed throughout all that's been created.

Which leads to Romans 1 and more specifically, Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

It pretty clearly states that the probable eternal destiny of man dying without hearing of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is hell. But, it also implies that God in his infinite wisdom and grace, is able to judge a man's heart, once again, based on his response to the revealed Creation of and through Christ.

This is more or less thinking and wrestling through scriptures aloud. I've no desire to argue about it or get into a tussle over Cal's five.

:thumbsup:

Nor I.

 

[Bronconagurski]

We are all responsible for our actions.

What if someone lived before Jesus and sought to know the truth about God and our existence, and that person tried to live by the teachings that Jesus later demonstrated. What happens to such a person after death? Is this person automatically hellbound for eternity?

When I first got saved, I was taught that people in the OT were saved by looking forward to the cross, and afterward, looking back at the cross. I found out it is not that simple in the OT. I believe salvation in any time period is by grace thru faith. The question in the OT, is faith in what? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now what did Abraham believe? Paul tells us in Romans that he believed the what God had promised concerning Abraham's seed, God was able to perform. Abraham was justified before the giving of the law, so OT saints are not saved by keeping the law, as some erroneously believe. Now, what did Abraham believe about his seed? Jesus tells us in John- John 8:56 (ESV)
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
Abraham saw Christ from afar, so , yes, he was looking forward to the day of Christ. When the law came, on the great day of atonement, they were looking forward to Christ. Salvation is by grace thru faith, no matter when the time period.

 

[Mexdeaf]

And that is Calvinist garbage.

I prefer to believe that it is a treasure.

Ok, so tell me- does God get glory when someone goes to hell, or not?

Does God not get glory in everything He does, including judgment? Is not His righteousness glorified when He judges?

 

[Monster]

I prefer to believe that it is a treasure.

Ok, so tell me- does God get glory when someone goes to hell, or not?

Does God not get glory in everything He does, including judgment? Is not His righteousness glorified when He judges?

Just curious here, shouldn't we be happy then that some are damned? If it gives God glory, it's all good. Should we desire (and pray for) the damnation of some? And this is an old argument but I'll make it nonetheless; why bother with the great commission at all? Glory is what God created us for, it's why Christ was required, to "fix" us to do it (it being glorify God)...or maybe not, if damnation equals God gets glory, then Christ wasted His time. God would get what He created us for without the need to sacrifice His son.

Isn't it just a likely that those in hell are there because God is just and merciful and has judged them for their sins rather than seeking glorification through the eternal suffering and damnation of those He made in His image... for the sole purpose of glorify Him? Damnation for glorification seems like man's circular reasoning and not the acts of a just God.

Otherwise, it seems like a broken equation to say that God created those doomed for damnation as a "glorify-er." The act of redeeming the lost and damned gives God glory, and it's those redeemed creatures that give God glory and to my finite mind, the very reason we were created.

But, all that said. I agree with the basic fact, that all things work to glorify God. As to the above and as I said in another thread, I'm just thinking aloud.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I prefer to believe that it is a treasure.

Ok, so tell me- does God get glory when someone goes to hell, or not?

Does God not get glory in everything He does, including judgment? Is not His righteousness glorified when He judges?

A pagan god might get that kind of glory, but not God the Father of Jesus Christ.

And I didn't mean to be harsh with you. I was addressing only the doctrine.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Just curious here, shouldn't we be happy then that some are damned? If it gives God glory, it's all good. Should we desire (and pray for) the damnation of some? And this is an old argument but I'll make it nonetheless; why bother with the great commission at all? Glory is what God created us for, it's why Christ was required, to "fix" us to do it (it being glorify God)...or maybe not, if damnation equals God gets glory, then Christ wasted His time. God would get what He created us for without the need to sacrifice His son.

Isn't it just a likely that those in hell are there because God is just and merciful and has judged them for their sins rather than seeking glorification through the eternal suffering and damnation of those He made in His image... for the sole purpose of glorify Him? Damnation for glorification seems like man's circular reasoning and not the acts of a just God.

Otherwise, it seems like a broken equation to say that God created those doomed for damnation as a "glorify-er." The act of redeeming the lost and damned gives God glory, and it's those redeemed creatures that give God glory and to my finite mind, the very reason we were created.

But, all that said. I agree with the basic fact, that all things work to glorify God. As to the above and as I said in another thread, I'm just thinking aloud.

:thumbsup:

 

[Mexdeaf]

A pagan god might get that kind of glory, but not God the Father of Jesus Christ.

And I didn't mean to be harsh with you. I was addressing only the doctrine.

Yes God the father of the Lord Jesus Christ will get the glory on the damnation of those who are fairly judged to be worthy of it.

It is harsh but true and Biblical to believe and teach this.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Yes God the father of the Lord Jesus Christ will get the glory on the damnation of those who are fairly judged to be worthy of it.

It is harsh but true and Biblical to believe and teach this.

I of course respectfully disagree.

 

[Bronconagurski]

God takes no pleasure in those that die and go to hell. Ezekiel 33:11 (NKJV)
11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

 

[Thomas Helwys]

God takes no pleasure in those that die and go to hell. Ezekiel 33:11 (NKJV)
11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

Thanks!

 

[Iconoclast]

Judging from what I've seen in this thread, Graham's sentiment is simply the natural conclusion of noncalvinist doctrine.

Yes...this is again the root of the problem.When you turn away from truth you go into error.We see it on BB on a daily basis.:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, there ARE people who REALLY believe that all the millions/billions who have lived since the beginning of time and never heard of Jesus will go to hell-----namely ME!!! And I seriously doubt I have the only horse in the race!!!!:saint::saint::type:

Turning from clear truth this poster rushes headlong into error.:thumbs: