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I have to know. What changed Billy's mind (Graham)
- Thread starter HungryInherit
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Bronconagurski
New Member
God bless you, too.
TH......my friend.You have come in here with an agenda and quoting from Dave Stewards bogus website does not indicate you intend any blessing.:wavey:
You have not even begun to make any kind of biblical case,just trying to accuse the brethren.
God did NOT create people merely "to send them to hell"----but that they should be saved
There was ample opportunity for salvation of the nations---at Pentecost--where Jews from all nations under the Sun were gathered in Jerusalem--there the enfilling of the Holy Spirit began----the Jews who were filled had a responsibility to carry the saving gospel back to the country they were drawn from
Same way with the Holy Spirit coming upon the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius---the Spirit filled Gentiles had the responsiblilty to carry the same saving gospel to the country he was drawn from----
Every person has had opportunity to hear the gospel message---through the responsibility of the believers---Jew first and also to the Greek----without the saving gospel of the Lord Jesus all are "condemned already"----because they did not believe
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Nope...!
Nope...Can't agree with you there TH..... God would never be behind someone changing their mind to a position that runs CONTRARY to the clear teaching of His Word.
The question I think you and others who believe as you appear to believe ( that it may be possible to be saved with out access to the Bible or knowledge of Christ) need to answer is:
WHAT CONDEMNS A MAN(OR WOMAN) TO ETERNAL SEPERATION FROM GOD IN A PLACE THE BIBLE CALLS THE "LAKE OF FIRE"...what we commonly refer to as HELL?
Once you get the correct answer to that then you will know why NO MAN who is not "CLOTHED" in the imputed RIGHTEOUSNESS of the Lord Jesus Christ can EVER enter into the eternal presence of our Holy God in Heaven.
What did Jesus have to say about the matter?? (See John 14:6) He IS the ONLY way. Salvation IS an exclusive gift...and in the light of the total population of this world since the Garden of Eden, relatively FEW will come to true Biblical salvation because of their fallen nature. People who go to Hell do so not because of their sin(s), but rather, because they are SINNERS...by birth, by nature, and by choice. You rarely have to teach a child to do WRONG...they do it by nature. Sad but true. Those of us who DO know the Lord should be completely HUMBLED by His unfathomable love, mercy, and grace!
Billy Graham, Schuller, and now regrettably (apparently) Franklin are wrong about this. I personally believe it is just more evidence of the growing apostasy and steps toward the rise of the coming one-world "church" of the time of the anti-christ as the end draws near. Again...sad,but true. Even so, come Lord Jesus!
Bro.Greg:saint:
Nope...Can't agree with you there TH..... God would never be behind someone changing their mind to a position that runs CONTRARY to the clear teaching of His Word.
The question I think you and others who believe as you appear to believe ( that it may be possible to be saved with out access to the Bible or knowledge of Christ) need to answer is:
WHAT CONDEMNS A MAN(OR WOMAN) TO ETERNAL SEPERATION FROM GOD IN A PLACE THE BIBLE CALLS THE "LAKE OF FIRE"...what we commonly refer to as HELL?
Once you get the correct answer to that then you will know why NO MAN who is not "CLOTHED" in the imputed RIGHTEOUSNESS of the Lord Jesus Christ can EVER enter into the eternal presence of our Holy God in Heaven.
What did Jesus have to say about the matter?? (See John 14:6) He IS the ONLY way. Salvation IS an exclusive gift...and in the light of the total population of this world since the Garden of Eden, relatively FEW will come to true Biblical salvation because of their fallen nature. People who go to Hell do so not because of their sin(s), but rather, because they are SINNERS...by birth, by nature, and by choice. You rarely have to teach a child to do WRONG...they do it by nature. Sad but true. Those of us who DO know the Lord should be completely HUMBLED by His unfathomable love, mercy, and grace!
Billy Graham, Schuller, and now regrettably (apparently) Franklin are wrong about this. I personally believe it is just more evidence of the growing apostasy and steps toward the rise of the coming one-world "church" of the time of the anti-christ as the end draws near. Again...sad,but true. Even so, come Lord Jesus!
Bro.Greg:saint:
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Thomas Helwys
New Member
I have no agenda. Who is Dave Steward? And yes, I intended a blessing; so glad that you are so certain of my intentions. Instead of answering your false post charging me with error, I just decided to say God bless you.
I have made biblical cases for everything I have posted. Tell me, what brethren have I accused? Another false charge. I can't help it if people are made uncomfortable by facts. That's their problem, not mine.
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Thomas Helwys
New Member
Not everyone has heard the Gospel message nor had opportunity to hear it. And so those people are condemned to hell? Not by the God and Father of my Lord Jesus Christ. Maybe by the Calvinist god, whoever that is.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
Oh, I have the answer to that and have had it for quite some time. Some are going to have a real surprise coming when they do meet Jesus face-to-face.
As Much As I Love Billy....
...I have to stand behind the Scriptures where Jesus says, that the only way to the Father is through Him [Jesus].
Secondly, Jesus did describe the gate to heaven as being "Narrow" then told His followers that like the gate, the Path to heaven is also "Narrow" unlike the road to damnation which is wide and traveled by many. However, these scriptures pertain specifically to those who have heard the name of Jesus and the call to accept Him as Savior, and rejected Him in thier lifetime.
I do not believe that anybody and everybody will GO to heaven. However, God does make provision similar to the one where God sent Jonah to Ninevah to spare them from destruction. Once they heard of Jehovah and had the opportunity to repent, they were spared. Also, Sodom and Gomorrah would have been spared if there were at least ten "righteous" people. We know that number could not be rounded up, and the cities of many sins were lit up and turned to toast!
With that said, I often wondered about those who never had an opportunity to know, or hear, the name of Jesus [in our time and age]? And while I firmly believe that it is true that Jesus is the only way to get into heaven, it is quite possible that there will always be a remnant, who will get there, without knowing His name!
SEE: http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/god-always-has-a-remnant/ for a great article on God's remnant! I am not god, so who am I to even try to say that it is a possibilty that God will permit some into heaven by their works, especially when they had no ways or means of hearing the name of Jesus and being afforded the opportunity to call upon His name? This is truly God's call, not yours or mine. And while I think this is a great topic, it comes down to us being concerned about our own salvation. In a way, this argument and conversation is a kin to the one that asks, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?" I think we'll never really know, and the same goes for heaven. We will not really retain much information about our past life when we get there, so we may in fact be around Ninevites and never know it? :smilewinkgrin:
Rich Deem (of Evidence for God) writes an interesting argument for a conclusion such as the one Billy Graham holds to, and it is seen in its entirety @ http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/neverheard.html but for those who do not want to take the time to hit the link and read it let me paste his conclusion here: I know there are many Christians who say that all those who die without faith in Christ will be relegated to spend eternity in Hell - even if they have never heard the gospel. I think scripture suggests otherwise - that we are judged on the basis of what we know and how we act upon it. This is not any sort of ecumenical theology or "all ways lead to God." Those who have heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and have refused to believe have rejected Him, and, as such, will fall under the condemnation of God, because they have rejected His provision for our disobedience.2 Therefore, atheists are still without excuse8 in rejecting God. Those who perpetrate evil, even without the knowledge of the gospel, will likewise be condemned, since they have violated their God-given conscience. In the same way, those who play the "religion game" of going to church on Sunday, but living apart from a relationship with God, will be condemned.
I do expect several of you to come after me. Some may even call me a heretic. But that is to be expected. After all, this is as much a philosophical question as it is a theological question! :smilewinkgrin: And that statment may get me in trouble too, but, this is a forum to air out each others thoughts on some very interesting topics. So my hats off to HungryInherits for something to really think deeply about, while coming up with no solid answer, only speculation.
...I have to stand behind the Scriptures where Jesus says, that the only way to the Father is through Him [Jesus].
Secondly, Jesus did describe the gate to heaven as being "Narrow" then told His followers that like the gate, the Path to heaven is also "Narrow" unlike the road to damnation which is wide and traveled by many. However, these scriptures pertain specifically to those who have heard the name of Jesus and the call to accept Him as Savior, and rejected Him in thier lifetime.
I do not believe that anybody and everybody will GO to heaven. However, God does make provision similar to the one where God sent Jonah to Ninevah to spare them from destruction. Once they heard of Jehovah and had the opportunity to repent, they were spared. Also, Sodom and Gomorrah would have been spared if there were at least ten "righteous" people. We know that number could not be rounded up, and the cities of many sins were lit up and turned to toast!
With that said, I often wondered about those who never had an opportunity to know, or hear, the name of Jesus [in our time and age]? And while I firmly believe that it is true that Jesus is the only way to get into heaven, it is quite possible that there will always be a remnant, who will get there, without knowing His name!
SEE: http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/god-always-has-a-remnant/ for a great article on God's remnant! I am not god, so who am I to even try to say that it is a possibilty that God will permit some into heaven by their works, especially when they had no ways or means of hearing the name of Jesus and being afforded the opportunity to call upon His name? This is truly God's call, not yours or mine. And while I think this is a great topic, it comes down to us being concerned about our own salvation. In a way, this argument and conversation is a kin to the one that asks, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?" I think we'll never really know, and the same goes for heaven. We will not really retain much information about our past life when we get there, so we may in fact be around Ninevites and never know it? :smilewinkgrin:
Rich Deem (of Evidence for God) writes an interesting argument for a conclusion such as the one Billy Graham holds to, and it is seen in its entirety @ http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/neverheard.html but for those who do not want to take the time to hit the link and read it let me paste his conclusion here: I know there are many Christians who say that all those who die without faith in Christ will be relegated to spend eternity in Hell - even if they have never heard the gospel. I think scripture suggests otherwise - that we are judged on the basis of what we know and how we act upon it. This is not any sort of ecumenical theology or "all ways lead to God." Those who have heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and have refused to believe have rejected Him, and, as such, will fall under the condemnation of God, because they have rejected His provision for our disobedience.2 Therefore, atheists are still without excuse8 in rejecting God. Those who perpetrate evil, even without the knowledge of the gospel, will likewise be condemned, since they have violated their God-given conscience. In the same way, those who play the "religion game" of going to church on Sunday, but living apart from a relationship with God, will be condemned.
I do expect several of you to come after me. Some may even call me a heretic. But that is to be expected. After all, this is as much a philosophical question as it is a theological question! :smilewinkgrin: And that statment may get me in trouble too, but, this is a forum to air out each others thoughts on some very interesting topics. So my hats off to HungryInherits for something to really think deeply about, while coming up with no solid answer, only speculation.
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Thomas Helwys
New Member
I think your post is one of the most sensible, balanced, and charitable posts I have read. Thanks for posting it here.
Ditto!
And so is your response [thanks!]. But, just wait, I know the arguments and condemnations are soon to follow. :laugh:
And so is your response [thanks!]. But, just wait, I know the arguments and condemnations are soon to follow. :laugh:
Thomas Helwys
In the journey into the catholic church thread...in post 130, you offered your example which from the site I posted.
Dave Stewart is the name I saw there.
You are denying that sinners go to hell apart from hearing and believing the gospel.That is falsehood.
You have not made any biblical case, then you claim Calvinists have gnostic roots. then this;
That is the biblical God that you will give an account to on the last day.
You posted in the other christian denominations site and offered a quote from Dave Stewarts website.
In the journey into the catholic church thread...in post 130, you offered your example which from the site I posted.
Dave Stewart is the name I saw there.
You are denying that sinners go to hell apart from hearing and believing the gospel.That is falsehood.
You have not made any biblical case, then you claim Calvinists have gnostic roots. then this;
That is the biblical God that you will give an account to on the last day.
When you post a falsehood ,of course there will be a response Dude.
The article you posted:
Never-
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Not only that, this article says the remnant were scattered around the world which is not true.
The article does not mention anyone being saved by works, the word works is not in the article.
The second article is completely unbiblical.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
I will give an account to the God and Father of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ; He is not the Calvinist god.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
There are some such that if they didn't condemn me, I would know I was on the wrong side of an issue. So, let the condemnations come.
The teaching known today as calvinism was taught by Jesus.You can learn it now, or find out about it later.
Your denial of the fall and it's results is unbiblical.The source you pulled it from is nothing resembling a biblically accurate source....like this nonsense:
John MacArthur
Heretic John MacArthur
WARNING! 5-Point Calvinist
MacArthur's Heresy On Predestination
John MacArthur's Deadly Gospel
John MacArthur is An Unsaved Modernist!
The Deadliest Enemies!
John MacArthur's Words Condemn Himself (denies the power of Jesus' literal, physical, blood)
MacArthur on the blood (a rebuttal from Pastor Bynum, Tabernacle Baptist Church)
John MacArthur's Heresy on the Blood of Christ (Book available. MacArthur believes Jesus' blood is insignificant!)
WARNING: The John MacArthur Study Bible Will Lead You Astray (MacArthur says that Melchizedek had parents, diminishes the importance of the blood, teaches a "limited atonement," et cetera)
MacArthur's Lame response on the blood (and my rebuttal)--MacArthur teaches that Jesus' Blood soaked into the ground at the cross and stayed there. The blood had to be applied Mr. MacArthur!!!
John MacArthur Exposed! (claims to believe in the blood of Jesus, but denies it's significance)
The MacArthur Studied Bible Exposed
MacArthur's Heresy on Lordship Salvation
MacArthur's Heresy Refuted
MacArthur Perverts the Blood of God
MacArthur and Thieme - Heretics!
MacArthur, the Cults, and the Blood
MacArthur, Greek Geeks, and the Blood
I realize I'm coming to this thread late, but no one has mentioned this statement of Graham, which is in essence that a person can come to the truth through some man-made religion. Living in a country that is only 1% Christian, I can tell you that any religion, any teaching other than that Jesus is the only, unique way to Heaven through faith in Him by the Gospel, is completely and totally wrong.
Buddhism, Shintoism, Islam, Hinduism (and I've met and preached or witnessed to all of these) all are designed not to bring you to Christ, but to drive you away from God into deeper and deeper sin. I could give many, many illustrations of this from various countries where I've been. Think of Japan, one of the most depraved countries that ever existed. There are Shinto festivals that I cannot even name on the BB. Japanese men take actual tours to Thailand (the most Buddhist country in the world, but incredibly depraved) for the purpose of immorality with underaged people. The LDP (ruling party) is in cahoots with the yakuza, the Japanese mafia which controls the construction business and other slices of Japan. There is twice the abortion per capita of America here, and no public voice opposing it. I could go on and on.
For anyone who doesn't believe in total depravity, come over and live in a Buddhist country for awhile. There is absolutely nothing in Buddhism to lead you anywhere near Christ (knowing Him by name or not), but Buddhism will only lead you exactly 180 degrees away from Him into more and more depravity.
Billy Graham's statement is errant, ignorant nonsense.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
Jesus did not teach Calvinism. Calvinism is the opposite of what Jesus taught. You can learn that now, or find out about it later.
I don't deny the fall. I deny the Calvinist version of its results. Calvinism is unbiblical.
But there's no use in this back and forth.
Iconoclast, I don't get an impression that you're a bad sort, and I really don't want to be on bad terms with you, believe as you will about me.
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Romans 9:22,23
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
Knowing the terror from which God has saved us, brings glory to Him.
The damnation of the wicked makes our salvation that much more precious.
Thank you John for coming into this thread.
Mankind has known God from the beginning. Mankind has known God since He left only one family on this earth, when He nearly destroyed it. As the earth was repopulated, large portions of mankind cast aside their relationship with God as they yielded to the lures cast by satan.
If I understand correctly, over and over again, the Bible (OT & NT) makes a distinction between those who choose to enter wide and narrow gates. In the NT, it's clear (I think) that He gave the great commission as yet one more opportunity to bring all of mankind back into worship of Him, the One True God. A final opportunity before He rains fire and brimstone down upon those who have forgotten Him.
I can't understand how any preacher can say anything other than:
John 14: KJB
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Just a layman's thoughts this morning, FWIW.
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