I have to know. What changed Billy's mind (Graham)

[Bro. James]

Billy Graham will give an account just like all the rest of us. I listened and watched him preach many times all the way back to the early 60's. Apparently, many souls were converted. How many were added to New Testament churches is not readily apparent. They were instructed to seek a "bible believing" church.

This is consistent with universal church which is pretty much what most of Christendom believes, be it visible or invisible--an interesting contradiction in itself. If the Church is local and visible only, there are many who have an ecclesia problem, not just Mr. Graham.

Having a big dose of the "warm and fuzzy" is not conversion.

If the world likes your preaching, look out, you are surely in a ditch.

The Lord will get all the sheep back in the fold--regardless of how we may botch the mission.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[John of Japan]

Thank you John for coming into this thread.

Mankind has known God from the beginning. Mankind has known God since He left only one family on this earth, when He nearly destroyed it. As the earth was repopulated, large portions of mankind cast aside their relationship with God as they yielded to the lures cast by satan.

If I understand correctly, over and over again, the Bible (OT & NT) makes a distinction between those who choose to enter wide and narrow gates. In the NT, it's clear (I think) that He gave the great commission as yet one more opportunity to bring all of mankind back into worship of Him, the One True God. A final opportunity before He rains fire and brimstone down upon those who have forgotten Him.

I can't understand how any preacher can say anything other than:

John 14: KJB

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
​

Just a layman's thoughts this morning, FWIW.

Amen, brother!

Interestingly enough, in the Chinese and Japanese Bible, the character for "way" in John 14:6 is 道, which is tao in Chinese and michi in Japanese. It is the character used in the Chinese philosophy/religion of Taoism, "the teaching of the way." In that case it means the way of life. There is only One Way for life, Jesus Christ, Son of God! But Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism and all the other Asian -isms reject Christ. Even when a heathen religion recognizes Christ as someone important as Islam does, they reject Christ as the Son of God.

 

[salzer mtn]

Now, I think all of us know that back in the 60s (I think) and even recently Dr. Graham has stated that the only path to eternal life isn't through Jesus Christ. My question is what exactly made him come to this conclusion? I know people on this forum have wondered, so maybe someone knows. I reall think he beloved that and he does it say it just to PC or because someone in his camp wants him too.

There are three possible answers to why Billy Graham changed his stand. (1) He woke up one morning and realized by saying people in countries that have never heard of Christ will go to hell was not consistant with Arminian doctrine, so he changed his mind. (2) His Altimers disease was effecting him in it's early stages. (3) If he is a false prophet and always was, God is letting him make it known to the whole world. I personally don't think Billy would have been well know as he is if it wasn't for Randolf Hearst the news papers magnet that got behind Billy in his crusades and publicised him till he was a house hold name. Now about the subject will the lost that has never heard of Jesus from the time they are born till the time they died go to hell, i believe they will. The ones that don't agree with this don't realise salvation is all of grace. God doesn't owe anyone anything. God doesn't owe everyone at least one chance. We was all seperated from God through Adam. If God hadn't chose some, none would be saved. Some people kick at God's sovereignty by him making a choice but then they want to be sovereign in there own lives by making their every day choices like buying the kind of car that pleases them. The scripture say's we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: to the one we are the savior of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life, 11 Cor 2:15-16. Yes, God will get glory out of the wicked. God has many attributes other than love, and not one is magnified over the other. God's wrath and judgement will be glorfied in casting wicked sinners into hell.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

There are three possible answers to why Billy Graham changed his stand. (1) He woke up one morning and realized by saying people in countries that have never heard of Christ will go to hell was not consistant with Arminian doctrine, so he changed his mind. (2) His Altimers disease was effecting him in it's early stages. (3) If he is a false prophet and always was, God is letting him make it known to the whole world. I personally don't think Billy would have been well know as he is if it wasn't for Randolf Hearst the news papers magnet that got behind Billy in his crusades and publicised him till he was a house hold name. Now about the subject will the lost that has never heard of Jesus from the time they are born till the time they died go to hell, i believe they will. The ones that don't agree with this don't realise salvation is all of grace. God doesn't owe anyone anything. God doesn't owe everyone at least one chance. We was all seperated from God through Adam. If God hadn't chose some, none would be saved. Some people kick at God's sovereignty by him making a choice but then they want to be sovereign in there own lives by making their every day choices like buying the kind of car that pleases them. The scripture say's we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that perish: to the one we are the savior of death unto death; and the other the savour of life unto life, 11 Cor 2:15-16. Yes, God will get glory out of the wicked. God has many attributes other than love, and not one is magnified over the other. God's wrath and judgement will be glorfied in casting wicked sinners into hell.

Well, now aren't you glad you are one of the fortunate ones who had a chance to hear about Jesus instead of one of the countless millions who didn't.

Seems like a lot are glad that all those folks are going to hell so God can get the glory.

I'm glad God is who he is and not the god of TULIP.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Well, now aren't you glad you are one of the fortunate ones who had a chance to hear about Jesus instead of one of the countless millions who didn't.

Seems like a lot are glad that all those folks are going to hell so God can get the glory.

I'm glad God is who he is and not the god of TULIP.

So you think only the ones that heard the gospel and rejected it will go to hell? That is inconsistent with Romans 1. I happen to believe (I know I will be jumped on by someone as wrong) that if we live up to the light we have, then God sends more light. But let's say He does not. Is there unrighteousness with God? No where in God's word does He promise that those who did not hear the gospel are not responsible. At least I have not found proof. If you have some, I will be glad to take a look at it. And I don't know about anyone else, but I do feel fortunate to have heard the gospel and be saved. I owe that to God and the many Americans in North Carolina before me that propagated the gospel as God commanded. I don't get hung up on who will be there, just who I can reach with the gospel in my world. God is holy, and He will do right. Always.

 

[Mexdeaf]

So you think only the ones that heard the gospel and rejected it will go to hell? That is inconsistent with Romans 1. I happen to believe (I know I will be jumped on by someone as wrong) that if we live up to the light we have, then God sends more light. But let's say He does not. Is there unrighteousness with God? No where in God's word does He promise that those who did not hear the gospel are not responsible. At least I have not found proof. If you have some, I will be glad to take a look at it. And I don't know about anyone else, but I do feel fortunate to have heard the gospel and be saved. I owe that to God and the many Americans in North Carolina before me that propagated the gospel as God commanded. I don't get hung up on who will be there, just who I can reach with the gospel in my world. God is holy, and He will do right. Always.

:thumbsup:

 

[Thomas Helwys]

So you think only the ones that heard the gospel and rejected it will go to hell? That is inconsistent with Romans 1. I happen to believe (I know I will be jumped on by someone as wrong) that if we live up to the light we have, then God sends more light. But let's say He does not. Is there unrighteousness with God? No where in God's word does He promise that those who did not hear the gospel are not responsible. At least I have not found proof. If you have some, I will be glad to take a look at it. And I don't know about anyone else, but I do feel fortunate to have heard the gospel and be saved. I owe that to God and the many Americans in North Carolina before me that propagated the gospel as God commanded. I don't get hung up on who will be there, just who I can reach with the gospel in my world. God is holy, and He will do right. Always.

You said, "So you think only the ones that heard the gospel and rejected it will go to hell?" No, I do not, and nowhere did In say that.

You said, "I happen to believe (I know I will be jumped on by someone as wrong) that if we live up to the light we have, then God sends more light."
So do I.

You said, "No where in God's word does He promise that those who did not hear the gospel are not responsible."
I agree.

You said, "God is holy, and He will do right. Always." I couldn't agree more.

 

[nodak]

Wow--so much heat and anger and so little just letting the Bible speak.

It does say God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. It does say Jesus was the Savior of the whole world, but especially of them that believe.

Now, the universalists could be dead wrong. But they could also be the only one's taking the Bible literally, something held in high esteem here on BB.

I suppose there are some liberals who see universalism and just a "get out of hell free" card.

But there have been many rock solid Christians through the ages that held the position. In fact, most did until the church became institutionalized and government enmeshed. Then seems there was a need for a doctrine of hell much like what most of us hold to today in order to keep those rebelling against the institutional church in line.

It is extremely enlightening to either use a Bible that simply transliterates sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartaroo or tartarus rather than one that uses the word hell, or look up hell in a good concordance and lectionary every time it appears. And then it is also extremely enlightening to see what those words would have meant to the original speakers and hearers.

That can, but doesn't always, lead Arminians to believe God never ever gives up on a person, allowing them as much "hell" as it takes to repent and come to Christ for salvation.

It can, but doesn't always, lead Calvinists to believe that all for whom Christ died will be saved, that the Bible says clearly He died for all and WILL draw (or drag) all to Himself, so God will give you as much "hell" as it takes to get you there.

Some see no glory to God in losing the battle for even one soul, see God as ultimate victor, and so see all as being saved eventually.

Romans 1 makes it clear there is at least the possibility of salvation without hearing the gospel preached. Also shows it highly unlikely. But still, theoretically possible.

Now, given the damascas road incident with Paul, I figure God can save anyone He wants, anytime He wants, any way He wants. So I don't believe the millions and billions that never heard will be damned simply because they didn't have a chance to hear. Maybe they will be lost, but if so surely God knew they would never respond positively to Him anyway.

Or maybe at the moment of death they will be given an experience much like Paul's. Maybe they will ALL be in heaven.

For myself, I prefer witnessing that encourages people to come to Christ now--why take the chance? And yet in my prayer closet, I hope and pray He makes a way for all.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Wow--so much heat and anger and so little just letting the Bible speak.

It does say God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. It does say Jesus was the Savior of the whole world, but especially of them that believe.

Now, the universalists could be dead wrong. But they could also be the only one's taking the Bible literally, something held in high esteem here on BB.

I suppose there are some liberals who see universalism and just a "get out of hell free" card.

But there have been many rock solid Christians through the ages that held the position. In fact, most did until the church became institutionalized and government enmeshed. Then seems there was a need for a doctrine of hell much like what most of us hold to today in order to keep those rebelling against the institutional church in line.

It is extremely enlightening to either use a Bible that simply transliterates sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartaroo or tartarus rather than one that uses the word hell, or look up hell in a good concordance and lectionary every time it appears. And then it is also extremely enlightening to see what those words would have meant to the original speakers and hearers.

That can, but doesn't always, lead Arminians to believe God never ever gives up on a person, allowing them as much "hell" as it takes to repent and come to Christ for salvation.

It can, but doesn't always, lead Calvinists to believe that all for whom Christ died will be saved, that the Bible says clearly He died for all and WILL draw (or drag) all to Himself, so God will give you as much "hell" as it takes to get you there.

Some see no glory to God in losing the battle for even one soul, see God as ultimate victor, and so see all as being saved eventually.

Romans 1 makes it clear there is at least the possibility of salvation without hearing the gospel preached. Also shows it highly unlikely. But still, theoretically possible.

Now, given the damascas road incident with Paul, I figure God can save anyone He wants, anytime He wants, any way He wants. So I don't believe the millions and billions that never heard will be damned simply because they didn't have a chance to hear. Maybe they will be lost, but if so surely God knew they would never respond positively to Him anyway.

Or maybe at the moment of death they will be given an experience much like Paul's. Maybe they will ALL be in heaven.

For myself, I prefer witnessing that encourages people to come to Christ now--why take the chance? And yet in my prayer closet, I hope and pray He makes a way for all.

I prefer to believe that God has clearly and plainly stated His plan and will in the Scriptures, and there is no "perdition" or second chance. God cannot lie, and if there is any other way than through faith in Christ, He has mislead those of us who have cast our all upon Jesus as the only hope.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Wow--so much heat and anger and so little just letting the Bible speak.

It does say God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. It does say Jesus was the Savior of the whole world, but especially of them that believe.

Now, the universalists could be dead wrong. But they could also be the only one's taking the Bible literally, something held in high esteem here on BB.

I suppose there are some liberals who see universalism and just a "get out of hell free" card.

But there have been many rock solid Christians through the ages that held the position. In fact, most did until the church became institutionalized and government enmeshed. Then seems there was a need for a doctrine of hell much like what most of us hold to today in order to keep those rebelling against the institutional church in line.

It is extremely enlightening to either use a Bible that simply transliterates sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartaroo or tartarus rather than one that uses the word hell, or look up hell in a good concordance and lectionary every time it appears. And then it is also extremely enlightening to see what those words would have meant to the original speakers and hearers.

That can, but doesn't always, lead Arminians to believe God never ever gives up on a person, allowing them as much "hell" as it takes to repent and come to Christ for salvation.

It can, but doesn't always, lead Calvinists to believe that all for whom Christ died will be saved, that the Bible says clearly He died for all and WILL draw (or drag) all to Himself, so God will give you as much "hell" as it takes to get you there.

Some see no glory to God in losing the battle for even one soul, see God as ultimate victor, and so see all as being saved eventually.

Romans 1 makes it clear there is at least the possibility of salvation without hearing the gospel preached. Also shows it highly unlikely. But still, theoretically possible.

Now, given the damascas road incident with Paul, I figure God can save anyone He wants, anytime He wants, any way He wants. So I don't believe the millions and billions that never heard will be damned simply because they didn't have a chance to hear. Maybe they will be lost, but if so surely God knew they would never respond positively to Him anyway.

Or maybe at the moment of death they will be given an experience much like Paul's. Maybe they will ALL be in heaven.

For myself, I prefer witnessing that encourages people to come to Christ now--why take the chance? And yet in my prayer closet, I hope and pray He makes a way for all.

Excellent post. Thank you! :thumbsup:

 

[Monster]

I prefer to believe that God has clearly and plainly stated His plan and will in the Scriptures, and there is no "perdition" or second chance. God cannot lie, and if there is any other way than through faith in Christ, He has mislead those of us who have cast our all upon Jesus as the only hope.

I agree with this absolutely and that said;

I'm still curious however, do you believe that or maybe better stated, what are your thoughts on how Christ is revealed throughout all of creation? I'm still thinking about; John 1 1-5 and Romans 1

I've always understood the general truth about the eternal damnation for those who die an earthly death, never having heard the name, let alone the gospel of Jesus Christ, is based on God's judgment of their response to His hidden attributes and divine nature revealed through His creation. Maybe you've made this clear and I missed it or misread. ***edited to state that I also believe the likelihood of this form of salvation is infinitesimally small***

Also, on a side note. I think I read somewhere (and your name implies) that you have hearing loss? I'm in that category to some degree. Mind if I PM you on the subject?

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

The Bible Answers That

We are all responsible for our actions.

What if someone lived before Jesus and sought to know the truth about God and our existence, and that person tried to live by the teachings that Jesus later demonstrated. What happens to such a person after death? Is this person automatically hellbound for eternity?

TH...The Bible supplies the answer to that without question in Romans 3:10,11 when it says "As it is written,There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that SEEKETH (caps mine)after God."

People go to hell because they are sinners by birth and by nature and no amount of good works or deeds that they do...even if they profess to believe in a "god" will change that. Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven. If ANY man could ever do enough good works or commendable deeds to attain heaven then Christ died on the cross in VAIN. The fact that Christ HAD to suffer such cruelty and die at the hands of wicked man ought to convince the whole world of their need for Him....but yet...it doesn't. Any "effort" that man makes apart from trusting Christ's finished work is FUTILE.

Bro.Gregraying:

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Thank You...

I realize I'm coming to this thread late, but no one has mentioned this statement of Graham, which is in essence that a person can come to the truth through some man-made religion. Living in a country that is only 1% Christian, I can tell you that any religion, any teaching other than that Jesus is the only, unique way to Heaven through faith in Him by the Gospel, is completely and totally wrong.

Buddhism, Shintoism, Islam, Hinduism (and I've met and preached or witnessed to all of these) all are designed not to bring you to Christ, but to drive you away from God into deeper and deeper sin. I could give many, many illustrations of this from various countries where I've been. Think of Japan, one of the most depraved countries that ever existed. There are Shinto festivals that I cannot even name on the BB. Japanese men take actual tours to Thailand (the most Buddhist country in the world, but incredibly depraved) for the purpose of immorality with underaged people. The LDP (ruling party) is in cahoots with the yakuza, the Japanese mafia which controls the construction business and other slices of Japan. There is twice the abortion per capita of America here, and no public voice opposing it. I could go on and on.

For anyone who doesn't believe in total depravity, come over and live in a Buddhist country for awhile. There is absolutely nothing in Buddhism to lead you anywhere near Christ (knowing Him by name or not), but Buddhism will only lead you exactly 180 degrees away from Him into more and more depravity.

Billy Graham's statement is errant, ignorant nonsense.

Bro.John...Thank You...I was kind of hoping you might show up in this thread and offer a bit of balance from a "missionary" perspective. I have spent several days trying to work my way through this thread and it has been a real BB roller coaster ride.

Bro.Greg

 

[MB]

TH...The Bible supplies the answer to that without question in Romans 3:10,11 when it says "As it is written,There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that SEEKETH (caps mine)after God."

People go to hell because they are sinners by birth and by nature and no amount of good works or deeds that they do...even if they profess to believe in a "god" will change that. Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven. If ANY man could ever do enough good works or commendable deeds to attain heaven then Christ died on the cross in VAIN. The fact that Christ HAD to suffer such cruelty and die at the hands of wicked man ought to convince the whole world of their need for Him....but yet...it doesn't. Any "effort" that man makes apart from trusting Christ's finished work is FUTILE.

Bro.Gregraying:

Did anyone ever wonder is Billy Graham suffering from dementia because of his age. Maybe Alzheimer. My brothers wife has this terrible disease and I know first hand how it effects the mind. They get so forgetful that eventually they just forget to breathe.
MB

 

[Thomas Helwys]

TH...The Bible supplies the answer to that without question in Romans 3:10,11 when it says "As it is written,There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that SEEKETH (caps mine)after God."

People go to hell because they are sinners by birth and by nature and no amount of good works or deeds that they do...even if they profess to believe in a "god" will change that. Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven. If ANY man could ever do enough good works or commendable deeds to attain heaven then Christ died on the cross in VAIN. The fact that Christ HAD to suffer such cruelty and die at the hands of wicked man ought to convince the whole world of their need for Him....but yet...it doesn't. Any "effort" that man makes apart from trusting Christ's finished work is FUTILE.

Bro.Gregraying:

And yet there is still Romans 1 and 2, as others have pointed out.

 

[John of Japan]

It is extremely enlightening to either use a Bible that simply transliterates sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartaroo or tartarus rather than one that uses the word hell, or look up hell in a good concordance and lectionary every time it appears. And then it is also extremely enlightening to see what those words would have meant to the original speakers and hearers.

This is semantically ridiculous. If none of these words mean Hell, then there is no word for Hell in the koine Greek language. In, fact, in a good lexicon (concordance? lectionary? You must be joking.) every single one of these words has the meaning of "Hell" in the right context.

Sheol: "sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit" (BDB, from e-Sword software)
hades: "punishment for sinners" under en adhV in meaning 1 (BAGD, p. 16)
gehenna: "in the Gospels it is a place of punishment in the next life, hell" (BAGD, p. 153).
tartaroo: "Tartarus, thought of by the Greeks as a subterranean place lower than Hades where divine punishment was meted out, was so regarded in Jewish apocalyptic as well" (BAGD, p. 805).

(I can quote many more lexicons if need be.)

You can't simply make up meanings for Bible words and ignore the normal, 1st century Greek or pre-1st century Hebrew meanings. That way leads to heresy.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I've never seen a place where the charge of heresy or the word 'heresy' is thrown around as much as it is here. Looks like the definition of it here is: "Anyone who disagrees with me".

 

[John of Japan]

Romans 1 makes it clear there is at least the possibility of salvation without hearing the gospel preached. Also shows it highly unlikely. But still, theoretically possible.

You are confusing natural revelation, which can give knowledge of God, with the Gospel, which alone leads to salvation. There is nothing in Rom. 1 that says a person can be saved without knowing the Gospel, that Christ died for their sins and rose again.

 

[John of Japan]

I've never seen a place where the charge of heresy or the word 'heresy' is thrown around as much as it is here. Looks like the definition of it here is: "Anyone who disagrees with me".

You are apparently talking about the statement I just made, in which I accused no one of heresy. And I have never accused anyone here of heresy, but I have discussed the concept and will continue to do so.

So I take it you disagree with the idea that inventing your own definitions for Bible words can lead to heresy, is that correct? Since heresy is a Biblical concept, surely you can't be against the idea that heresy exists.

 

[John of Japan]

Bro.John...Thank You...I was kind of hoping you might show up in this thread and offer a bit of balance from a "missionary" perspective. I have spent several days trying to work my way through this thread and it has been a real BB roller coaster ride.

Bro.Greg

Those who think any teaching other than Christ's Gospel can lead to eternal life often have no idea what destruction a belief system other than the Biblical one leads to. I remember when Billy Graham stated that he had seen no persecution in the USSR after they took him around to state-sponsored churches, each with their own state-approved pastor teaching nothing but state approved doctrine.

For my part, I went to language school with many Chinese, including some from Communist China. I could tell you several stories of how communism destroys.

Again, years ago a Christian on one of those old e-mail lists tried to tell me that Buddhists didn't cause wars, a ridiculous concept in the light of history. In just WW2 we have so many atrocities by Japanese Buddhists: the Bataan Death March, the Rape of Nanking, the army unit which experimented with WMDs on live prisoners, etc. Buddhism and Shintoism lead to nothing other than harm and destruction.