I have to know. What changed Billy's mind (Graham)

[John Toppass]

Judging from what I've seen in this thread, Graham's sentiment is simply the natural conclusion of noncalvinist doctrine.

I was thinking it was a Calvinistic tendency, you know you have no choice it gonna happen or it isn't, but you have no choice.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

You are apparently talking about the statement I just made, in which I accused no one of heresy. And I have never accused anyone here of heresy, but I have discussed the concept and will continue to do so.


Actually no. Your post simply reminded me of how often I have seen the charge here or the word used. I've never seen that nearly as much on any other forums, and I have been on a lot of them over the years.


So I take it you disagree with the idea that inventing your own definitions for Bible words can lead to heresy, is that correct? Since heresy is a Biblical concept, surely you can't be against the idea that heresy exists.

Heresy exists, but it doesn't exist based on a difference of opinion.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Those who think any teaching other than Christ's Gospel can lead to eternal life often have no idea what destruction a belief system other than the Biblical one leads to. I remember when Billy Graham stated that he had seen no persecution in the USSR after they took him around to state-sponsored churches, each with their own state-approved pastor teaching nothing but state approved doctrine.

For my part, I went to language school with many Chinese, including some from Communist China. I could tell you several stories of how communism destroys.

Again, years ago a Christian on one of those old e-mail lists tried to tell me that Buddhists didn't cause wars, a ridiculous concept in the light of history. In just WW2 we have so many atrocities by Japanese Buddhists: the Battan Death March, the "Rape of Nanking," the army unit which experimented with WMDs on live prisoners, etc. Buddhism and Shintoism lead to nothing other than harm and destruction.

However, any act of aggression without provocation committed by members of most Asian religions is in direct violation of one of the major tenets: ahimsa, or "do no harm", conceptually equivalent to Schweitzer's "reverence for life."

 

[righteousdude2]

Thanks for your input...

When you post a falsehood ,of course there will be a response Dude.

The article you posted:


Never-
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Not only that, this article says the remnant were scattered around the world which is not true.

The article does not mention anyone being saved by works, the word works is not in the article.


The second article is completely unbiblical.

...without the input and feedback of others, we'd never have excitement on this forum. You are always there to show the error in our ways. Thanks for being ready both in and out of season.

One thing I've been wanting to ask you for a while now: What is your academic background in theology? Are you a scholar, or merely a self-taught man at the school of "Hard-knocks!"

 

[John of Japan]

Heresy exists, but it doesn't exist based on a difference of opinion.

I never said it did. But you didn't answer my question, which was based on the semantics of the Biblical languages as a tool of hermeneutics, not on a mere difference of opinion.

Let me try to state it more accurately Do you or do you not believe that heresy can stem from a wrong hermeneutic based on personal redefinitions of Biblical words?

 

[John of Japan]

However, any act of aggression without provocation committed by members of most Asian religions is in direct violation of one of the major tenets: ahimsa, or "do no harm", conceptually equivalent to Schweitzer's "reverence for life."

Correct, that is a Buddhist concept. But what I'm talking about is the pragmatic result of Asian religions, not their specific teachings. A religion can have general moral principles which are then ignored or contradicted by the practitioners simply because the religion itself leads them away from the true God, who is the source of all goodness. What might be called truth in such a religion is smothered by all the falsehood.

Again, in Buddhist countries what has happened is that the religion has become a tradition rather than a true way of life. This is because Buddhist teaching does not have truth enough in it to lead to any righteousness. So it degenerates into mere tradition: We are Buddhist because we are Japanese (or Thai or Chinese or...).

If you were to ask the typical Japanese what his Buddhist sect taught about daily life he'd say, "Huh?" I was once in a Buddhist temple with an evangelist from America. The evangelist asked me to ask the priest's wife about the meaning was of the sect's sutra sitting on a little stand. She said, "I dunno, it's in Chinese." I knew of an American who came to study Zen in Yokohama. Couldn't take it. Had a mental breakdown, because Zen really has nothing to do with inner peace through meditation. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[John of Japan]

Actually no. Your post simply reminded me of how often I have seen the charge here or the word used. I've never seen that nearly as much on any other forums, and I have been on a lot of them over the years.

I just noticed this in blue in the content of my quoted post. It would help if you learned better how to use the quote feature here.

But the fact that the term "heresy" occurs here more than other forums may mean that denizens of the BB are more concerned about fundamental truths than those of other forums. :thumbs:

 

[Zaac]

So, you believe God created all those people for no other reason than to send them to hell? If they never had opportunity to hear of Christ, how could they be saved then? If they had no chance to be saved, then that is saying what I wrote in my first sentence, is it not?

Blackbird is correct because what he says aligns with Scripture. If they are not worshiping GOD and have sinned which they obviously have if they are not worshiping GOD, then they sadly either go to hell or God is a liar.

If you choose to worship a god that is not Jesus Christ, Scripture says it is because you have suppressed the knowledge by your own wickedness.

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20

 

[Iconoclast]

righteousdude2...

without the input and feedback of others, we'd never have excitement on this forum. You are always there to show the error in our ways. Thanks for being ready both in and out of season.

One thing I've been wanting to ask you for a while now: What is your academic background in theology? Are you a scholar, or merely a self-taught man at the school of "Hard-knocks!"

Hello Dude,

I try not to open the door for error.When I see what has been understood to be error, I will speak out as clear as I can.My desire is to be faithful to God and have a clear conscience:
16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

I make no claim to speak for all rb"s...or to be infallible.

One thing I've been wanting to ask you for a while now: What is your academic background in theology? Are you a scholar, or merely a self-taught man at the school of "Hard-knocks!"

Years ago, I was the last person on earth who would have believed in God or His word. I started reading the bible to defend myself against it.
God saved me in spite of myself...I was not looking for God,but He had designs on me.
Soon after being drawn to a salvation,it was not too long before I was approached by friendly cultists...mormons, then jw.

Dude....I was so biblically lame...I thought they were all christians

A friend insisted I buy Walter Martins Kingdom of the Cults....which I did.

I soon learned how completely ignorant I was,and was ashamed.I confessed my ignorance as sin, and asked the Lord to let me hear His voice through His word.
I audited a couple of classes at baptist bible college...Gen /Exodus....and then Acts. It helped a great deal to see how to be serious about the word of God.

I did not pursue bible college as far as ministry, because I am defective when it comes to the qualifications of eldership.The qualifications are clear, that a man...MUST... be qualified. I am well aware of how much I fall short.

I sent away for hundreds of cassettes, from Believers chapel,,,in my premill days, from ministries in Arkansas, Pennsylvania, NJ, and California...before I was aware of sermonaudio .

I went to bible conferences all over the place....any speaker within range, I go:thumbs:

I visited charismatic churches, if it was of God...
I wanted it, if not I wanted to be protected against it....

Providentially....my library grew, and I have come to know many Godly seminary teachers, and Pastors who are greatly gifted by God.

So....I am self taught and still learning with much help along the way.Most times when I post, it is in response to error, if which the BB has some:thumbs:

My work allows me to listen to6-7 sermons a day, and to read...I have most times 15- 20 books in the truck at all times.....just not always sure what I will feel like reading...if I am alert, I read those works that are heavy duty.

Dude.....I was stunned when God convicted me of my sin, I have never gotten over it.It is sinful not to live and obey God in faith to grow in grace and knowledge. There is a sin debt paid for, a service debt, due:thumbs:

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Blackbird is correct because what he says aligns with Scripture. If they are not worshiping GOD and have sinned which they obviously have if they are not worshiping GOD, then they sadly either go to hell or God is a liar.

If you choose to worship a god that is not Jesus Christ, Scripture says it is because you have suppressed the knowledge by your own wickedness.

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20

That is not the point and has nothing to do with the verses in Romans 2 that I and others have referenced. Romans 2 is scripture, also, in case you hadn't noticed.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I just noticed this in blue in the content of my quoted post. It would help if you learned better how to use the quote feature here.


What is wrong with answering within a post? I try to remember to notify the person quoted of my answer there.


But the fact that the term "heresy" occurs here more than other forums may mean that denizens of the BB are more concerned about fundamental truths than those of other forums. :thumbs:

First response within quote.

No, it means there are more heresy hunters here.

 

[John of Japan]

First response within quote.

No, it means there are more heresy hunters here.

I've never had to hunt heresy. It just shows up occasionally, even here. :saint:

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I never said it did. But you didn't answer my question, which was based on the semantics of the Biblical languages as a tool of hermeneutics, not on a mere difference of opinion.

Let me try to state it more accurately Do you or do you not believe that heresy can stem from a wrong hermeneutic based on personal redefinitions of Biblical words?

It could. But I don't know anyone who deliberately does that.

More often "heresy" stems from an unjust accusation and branding by others desiring and attempting to marginalize.

There are errors to be sure, but errors do not equal heresy.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I've never had to hunt heresy. It just shows up occasionally, even here. :saint:

I haven't seen it here yet, not as you and others might define it. I've seen what I consider errors, and even grievous ones, but not heresy or apostasy.

 

[John of Japan]

First response within quote.

And once again I missed this because it was within my post. No one else here does that, so it is confusing. Check out the "sticky" by Skandelon at the top of the "Baptist Theology & Bible Study" forum on using the quote feature. It will help you on this.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

And once again I missed this because it was within my post. No one else here does that, so it is confusing. Check out the "sticky" by Skandelon at the top of the "Baptist Theology & Bible Study" forum on using the quote feature. It will help you on this.

Okay, thanks for the tip.

I learned how to post within quotes by seeing it done on some other forums. I thought it was a good idea to answer immediately under a section I wanted to highlight.

I'm unfamiliar with some features here. I wanted to post a poll but couldn't figure out how to do it. Can you tell me where to go to find that information? Sorry to bother you with such relative trivialities.

 

[John of Japan]

I haven't seen it here yet, not as you and others might define it. I've seen what I consider errors, and even grievous ones, but not heresy or apostasy.

Well, since you've only been here a little while.... :smilewinkgrin: There have been a number of threads on the meaning of heresy over the years. My own definition comes right from the meaning in Greek. As for heresy on the BB, if universalism (as mentioned on this thread) is not heresy, then there is no such thing. Almost all of Christianity, evangelical or not, agrees on that.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Well, since you've only been here a little while.... :smilewinkgrin: There have been a number of threads on the meaning of heresy over the years. My own definition comes right from the meaning in Greek. As for heresy on the BB, if universalism (as mentioned on this thread) is not heresy, then there is no such thing. Almost all of Christianity, evangelical or not, agrees on that.

Only after the first few centuries, as someone mentioned somewhere on here, I can't remember right now.

 

[John of Japan]

Okay, thanks for the tip.

I learned how to post within quotes by seeing it done on some other forums. I thought it was a good idea to answer immediately under a section I wanted to highlight.

What I do is when I answer a post, I look for the [ / QUOTE ] at the end, then move it up to right after the first paragraph or statement I want to answer. Then for the next one, outline the statement with your mouse and then click on the little "balloon" (as in a newspaper comic; this is the quote feature) at the top of the box along with the fonts, etc.

I'm unfamiliar with some features here. I wanted to post a poll but couldn't figure out how to do it. Can you tell me where to go to find that information? Sorry to bother you with such relative trivialities.

No problem. When you start a thread, it will have a box to check down at the bottom asking if you want a poll, then will ask you how many questions. After you hit "submit reply" for your new thread, it will then give you a screen where you can type in your poll questions.

 

[John of Japan]

Only after the first few centuries, as someone mentioned somewhere on here, I can't remember right now.

I don't think that is provable. You'd have to prove it from the early church fathers (which I have in book and digital form), and I don't remember any of them holding to anything like universalism. Maybe some of the later church fathers did (seems like Origen believed about everything at one time or another), but those were after several centuries of Christianity.