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I know this horse is dead as dead can be....
- Thread starter timdabap
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Actually, you are. Repeatedly.
What we must not do is deny the clearly expressed testimony of God throughout Scripture.
I cannot comment on your penal substitution theory. Scripture clearly supports the Doctrine of Penal Substitution (Please don't ask me what that is; I've written it out for you at least 20 times).
Clearly you have never attempted to discuss with a JW..
This is just pathetic insult. Previously, to my shame, I have responded in kind. This time I leave you to your pettiness.
As I have posted multiple times, it is not as you consider for the writer is very specific as to whom the wrath is appointed:
Romans 1:
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images of mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity for the dishonoring of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise!f Amen.
26For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27Likewise, the men abandoned natural relations with women and burned with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28Furthermore, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them up to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant, and boastful. They invent new forms of evil; they disobey their parents. 31They are senseless, faithless, heartless, merciless.
32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things are worthy of death, they not only continue to do these things, but also approve of those who practice them.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images of mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity for the dishonoring of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise!f Amen.
26For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27Likewise, the men abandoned natural relations with women and burned with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28Furthermore, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them up to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant, and boastful. They invent new forms of evil; they disobey their parents. 31They are senseless, faithless, heartless, merciless.
32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things are worthy of death, they not only continue to do these things, but also approve of those who practice them.
Did Christ ever fit even one specific found in this criterion?
He was without sin. Therefore, there was no wrath of God pour out upon Him anymore then there was wrath of God poured out upon any OT atonement sacrifice that was brought worthily to God.
Martin, the cup of which our Lord drank at the crucifixion was not the wrath of God that is to be poured out upon the nations in the Revelation.
Rather, it is the same cup in which He said believers (at the time the disciples) would indeed drink. And they did, as well as so many.
I do not diminish the torture and pain inflicted of our Lord; however, the believers have undergone similar treatments, and perhaps even more so, for our Lord laid His life down, where it is appointed for us to die. Here is a man that I knew:
All those who suffered and gave their life to the Lord are esteemed, but do not compare to that glory for what the Lord did, for His was not just the suffering at the hands of vile humanity, but the completion of the task set before Him by the Trinity.
Romans 2 on who is appointed to the Wrath of God:
5But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, first for the Jew, then for the Greek; 10but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, first for the Jew, then for the Greek. 11For God does not show favoritism. 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous. 14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them 16on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.
This is false.
I am asking for one verse (at least one verse) stating the individual elements of your faith.
There, as you admit, are none.
Romans 3 concerning who escapes the wrath and why:
At no point in all this is Christ said to have the wrath of God pour out upon Him in our place.
Rather, as the "atoning sacrifice" was pleasing to the God and acceptable as the one time forever sacrifice. No atoning sacrifice ever had God's wrath pour out upon it unless it was brought by an unworthy priest or the sacrifice was unworthy.
5But if our unrighteousness highlights the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict His wrath on us? I am speaking in human terms. 6Certainly not! In that case, how could God judge the world? 7However, if my falsehood accentuates God’s truthfulness, to the increase of His glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner? 8Why not say, as some slanderously claim that we say, “Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is deserved!
9What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin.
...
20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin.
apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets. 22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. 26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus. 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.
9What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin.
...
20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin.
apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets. 22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. 26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus. 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.
Rather, as the "atoning sacrifice" was pleasing to the God and acceptable as the one time forever sacrifice. No atoning sacrifice ever had God's wrath pour out upon it unless it was brought by an unworthy priest or the sacrifice was unworthy.
Just as Romans 3 states:
25God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. 26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.
Christ as both the sacrifice and the High Priest was not unworthy, and therefore no wrath of God poured out upon Him.
Romans 1 - 3 shows to whom the wrath is appointed and why believers escape.
Really, this is just so not the truth.
Texas is known for the tall tales, and if you were from Texas, why I might just be proud of you for creative thinking.
More obfuscation, does any of the above say Christ drank a cup of wrath? Nope. So what was the purpose? To suggest God's wrath was poured on on Jesus? Who knows...
NT Wright holds that there was no wrath of God towards Jesus, that is a pagan myth, that it would be "cosmic child abuse", that Jesus died due to evil Rome and world, that God vindicated Him, that he rose as a victor, is that not exactly what you and Jon C espouse here>
I don't ever remember reading much of anything by NT Wright, other then a few snips of opinion on the KJV only. At my age, I don't do much research type reading.
The Scripture at no place presents that God poured His wrath out upon the Son. That is the facts of the Bible. It is not what JonC or I would or wouldn't like. We BOTH taught and held PSA until God showed us by Scriptures that it was error. He and I didn't even know each other when this took place.
I do present as the Scriptures state, Christ is victorious over sin, death and the grave. (Acts 2:24, Romans 8:11, Romans 14:9, John 1:1, 11:25, Hebrews 7:16, ...) That as a result believers also are victorious. (1Corinthians 15;57, 2 Corinthians 2:14, Revelation 12:11, ...)
I also present that the sacrifice of Christ was purpose and divine will of both He and God. That as a result, He is the "mediator of a new covenant so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant." (Hebrews 9)
That the atoning sacrifice was based in type by that of the OT in which no wrath came from God UNLESS the sacrifice or the High Priest was found unworthy.
That God did not have to vindicate the Christ, for He was without sin.
That for wrath to be poured out upon Him, He would have had to meet at least one of the requirements of the ungodly found in Romans 1 and 2.
That because He as the first Adam was without sin (until the first Adam sinned) death could not contain Him for the wages of sin is death, and there is no death if there is no sin.
This is a portion of what I find in Scriptures.
What do you find?
Can you provide a single verse supporting PSA?
Especially as it teaches concerning the wrath of God poured out upon the Son?
Justice does not demand wrath of God, for then when the wrath is extinguished there is not need for the eternal lake of fire.
Lawlessness (1 John 3:4) and iniquity (James 3:6) are attributes of the rebellion the ungodly towards God as revealed in Romans 1 and 2. And it is the forgiveness found in Christ that prevents the wrath of God from the believer. (Romans 3).
Some use Romans 5 and 6 as showing some demand of justice be upon the Son. Yet, neither place presents wrath was placed upon the Son, rather death and forsaking were His reward for offering Himself.
Therefore, this is the reason I had to conform to the Scriptures, and not to the error of the reformation, nor of the presentation of the RCC prior to then.
So I searched, and continue to search the Scriptures and found what the earliest church was taught. That is what I hold.
You have provided No BASIS as to how God the father is able to fully justify the sinner and yet remain still Holy!
Sure I did.
What do the Scriptures state?
"...We have been justified by HIS BLOOD, much more, we shall be saved by Him from the wrath of God" (Romans 5:9)
Here are some other passages from Hebrews that I mentioned in the above post:
26Such a high priest truly befits us—One who is holy, innocent, undefiled, set apart from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer daily sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people; He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself.
4Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are already priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5The place where they serve is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”
11But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come, He went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made by hands and is not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption.
15Therefore, Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
15Therefore, Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
The redeemer did not need nor did He suffer the wrath of God.
The wrath of God is appointed to the ungodly, not the godly.
If PSA is correct, then Christ became a sinner, ungodly, and rebellious toward God. None of that is accurate, and therefore PSA is error.
God the Father justifies under the same principle that He justified the folks at the atoning sacrifice. By the Blood taken to the tabernacle not made with hands and reconciling God to the believer(s).
Colossians 2:
God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
yes that is the case. It is avoided at every turn.
Scripture provides the answer.
God is immutable - He does not change - His judgment is righteous. He is eternal.
The man who sins must die.
But the righteous of God was manifested apart from the law.
Man must still die, for it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment.
So how can God be just - still require that sinners die - and yet forgive sinners?
Certainly not through the law (the law condemns).
But suppose God could recreate man, that man could be born of the Spirit.....born again. This new man would not live according to the flesh like the old one did. The new man must have died to din and been made alive in Christ. This man would be under no condemnation.
God would be just and the justifier of sinners. All of this apart from the law (not through it), the law bearing testimony.
And these men woukd have been freed from bondage.
Of course, Penal Substitution Theorists do not really believe in a "rebirth" (not one that results in a new creation, anyway).
I bolded your statement that is false.
"But the righteous of God was manifested apart from the law."
Jesus came to fulfill the law. He was manifest within the law, not apart from it.
JonC
I do not think you can come to truth holding these ideas.
Now you are suggesting we do not believe in rebirth?
You are becoming unglued.
Such extreme posts are "unnecessary "...and should be removed.
,JonC.....your posting shows a clear lack of understanding of the relationship of God's Holy law...to mankind.
I do not think you can come to truth holding these ideas.
Now you are suggesting we do not believe in rebirth?
You are becoming unglued.
Such extreme posts are "unnecessary "...and should be removed.
Jesus did fulfill the Law. I never said otherwise. This is a very important truth. Otherwise Hod would have been unjust in vindication Him - in raising and glorifying Him. We would have no Life.
But no more important than our redemption being the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law (being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets).
Scripture is not a smorgasbord where you just pull out verses you Luke while leaving the ones that don't prop up your theories.
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