No, we cannot let this topic die.
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I know this horse is dead as dead can be....
- Thread starter timdabap
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God's law does not change. There is no redemption....no actual forgiveness....under the Law.
Natural man (the flesh) must die. Man must be born again, born of the Spirit.
Th ironic thing is this was the Christian faith until the Reformation and the introduction of Renaissance moral philosophy into Scripture in order to reword RCC doctrine.
This is the view men like Justin Martyr expressed. This is what Scripture actually states (in the text of God's Word).
Penal Substitution Theorists do not belueve in a literal spiritual birth (a rebirth) that results in a new creation, the old creation having died. Otherwise they woukd realize the reborn man is under no condemnation (a just God woukd have no charge to bring....not because he punished somebody else but because He recreated the sinner).
Natural man (the flesh) must die. Man must be born again, born of the Spirit.
Th ironic thing is this was the Christian faith until the Reformation and the introduction of Renaissance moral philosophy into Scripture in order to reword RCC doctrine.
This is the view men like Justin Martyr expressed. This is what Scripture actually states (in the text of God's Word).
Penal Substitution Theorists do not belueve in a literal spiritual birth (a rebirth) that results in a new creation, the old creation having died. Otherwise they woukd realize the reborn man is under no condemnation (a just God woukd have no charge to bring....not because he punished somebody else but because He recreated the sinner).
You appear to be saying that none of us are relieved of the wages of sin, which you say is the mere death of the body. That all will die because of sin. But you seem to be forgetting that Paul said we won't all die physically.
Isaiah 42:21. 'The LORD is well pleased for His righteousness' sake; He will exalt the law and make it honourable.'
Matthew 5:17. "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."
Romans 3:31. 'Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.'
Christ on the cross was fulfilling the Law and establishing its righteousness by paying in full the penalty that it demanded.
I do not intend to abandon this topic, just not to allow myself to be goaded.
The Law is honorable. The Law is not made void.
Do you just sit around and try your best to put words in the mouths of anybody who dare question the Reformers?
What verse is this "Christ on the cross was fulfilling the Law and establishing its righteousness by paying in full the penalty that it demanded"????
I see in Scripture where our debt is canceled but it looks like you added quite a bit to Scripture here....while (like @AustinC ) ignoring other passages.
"JonC,
The natural man is spiritually dead already. He does not need to die, he is already a dead man walking.
This is your view
This is a monster falsehood. Everyone who understands the biblical teaching of PSA. Knows all about regeneration.
To say they do not believe that is a falsehood.
The natural man is spiritually dead already. He does not need to die, he is already a dead man walking.
This is your view
This is a monster falsehood. Everyone who understands the biblical teaching of PSA. Knows all about regeneration.
To say they do not believe that is a falsehood.
An open denial of biblical truth.
You correctly understand law and grace, and the holy law of God being upheld.
Except we all believe the passages @Martin Marprelate posted
What is at question is his additions to Scripture.
God's Word is sufficient without adding to it. The reason is God is Sufficient. God's Word is perfect without changing it. The reason is God is Perfect.
After all of these threads if Scripture is still beyond your grasp....that is, if the actual Word of God ("what is written") still confuses you to the point you have to add to it or make changes then I cannot help but suspect you have not actually tried to read Scripture for what it actually says.
"agedman,
This includes every person ever born...
Yes all men....
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
This includes every person ever born...
Yes all men....
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
All of us have shown you do not understand the words in the scriptures and do not grasp the scriptures themselves.
I would never trade my understanding for the one you post.
We believe what the scripture actually says because we take the the time to understand it.
These threads have gone on, back to back, for awhile.
I do not understand why there is so much hostility and resistance to the actual text of Scripture. @agedman and I have appealed to God's Word, to "what is written", to the actual text of the Bible.
Yet we have been called everything but a brother in Christ. Why? Not because we have argued about interpretations but because we have insisted the test of doctrine is God's Word.
I do not understand why there is so much hostility and resistance to the actual text of Scripture. @agedman and I have appealed to God's Word, to "what is written", to the actual text of the Bible.
Yet we have been called everything but a brother in Christ. Why? Not because we have argued about interpretations but because we have insisted the test of doctrine is God's Word.
I get your theory. I was once where you are now.
I am grateful God led me out of the philosophy that has you in its grip, but for most of my life I was like you.
So I understand you think your theories correct. I get you feel your conclusions about what Scripture "teaches" equates to Scripture itself.
You are no less a brother. I was no less saved all of those decades I believed as you do now.
But there is so much of our faith that you cannot see because you are looking outside of Scripture.
I want the best for you. I want you to grasp not only the elemental things but the meat of Scripture. But until you can set aside human wisdom and simply trust God's Word you will find your growth stunted.
God's Word is perfect and complete. Stop allowing yourself to be carried away by vain philosophy. You are a godly man. Let Christ be your portion - not "worldly wisdom".
What I have posted is the text of Scripture. I pray one day you will be able to exchange theory for God's Word.
Please don't abandon the topic. Just stick with the oassages you quoted and not the addition you made at the end.
That is not, BTW, goading. That is observing that your conclusions do not match up with the verses you provided.
Where did the extra stuff come from?
JonC,
No you do not...it is teaching not theory. You never were where I am, I think not even close
Under the guise of trying to help, you offer insults, thinly veiled.
You can stop now. They are not working. We all see what you are doing.
No..another insult, that I do not welcome
No one asked you JonC...How can I say it....you are dismissed. I do not need your sage advice .Not sure the others like MM, and Aaron, and Sg, and all the others have asked for your assessment.
[QUOTE]But there is so much of our faith that you cannot see because you are looking outside of Scripture.
[/QUOTE]
Another insult, no thanks JonC
No..not buying that. Do not worry about me...I am right where God wants me to be.
Another sanctimonious insult. No thanks JonC, I have both ,thanks...if I need your input I will ask for it, thanks, but no thanks.
Another sanctimonious insult. No thanks JonC, I have both ,thanks...if I need your input I will ask for it, thanks, but no thanks.
It is, that is why some of us actually work at understanding it.
Another sanctimonious insult. No thanks JonC, I have both ,thanks...if I need your input I will ask for it, thanks, but no thanks.
Another sanctimonious insult. No thanks JonC, I have both ,thanks...if I need your input I will ask for it, thanks, but no thanks.
Another sanctimonious insult. No thanks JonC, I have both ,thanks...if I need your input I will ask for it, thanks, but no thanks.
No you do not...it is teaching not theory. You never were where I am, I think not even close
Under the guise of trying to help, you offer insults, thinly veiled.
You can stop now. They are not working. We all see what you are doing.
No..another insult, that I do not welcome
No one asked you JonC...How can I say it....you are dismissed. I do not need your sage advice .Not sure the others like MM, and Aaron, and Sg, and all the others have asked for your assessment.
[QUOTE]But there is so much of our faith that you cannot see because you are looking outside of Scripture.
[/QUOTE]
Another insult, no thanks JonC
No..not buying that. Do not worry about me...I am right where God wants me to be.
Another sanctimonious insult. No thanks JonC, I have both ,thanks...if I need your input I will ask for it, thanks, but no thanks.
Another sanctimonious insult. No thanks JonC, I have both ,thanks...if I need your input I will ask for it, thanks, but no thanks.
It is, that is why some of us actually work at understanding it.
Another sanctimonious insult. No thanks JonC, I have both ,thanks...if I need your input I will ask for it, thanks, but no thanks.
Another sanctimonious insult. No thanks JonC, I have both ,thanks...if I need your input I will ask for it, thanks, but no thanks.
Another sanctimonious insult. No thanks JonC, I have both ,thanks...if I need your input I will ask for it, thanks, but no thanks.
Jon, why do you resist the vast amount of scripture showing the substitutionary atonement of Christ.
Vast amounts of scripture have been shown and you consistently find ways to deflect and argue against scripture. You then make a statement with really no actual scripture to support your statement, yet you still imagine you have scripture on your side.
The resistance is because you are wrong and you can't imagine that to be true so you keep pushing a view that little to no one holds. It's similar to sbg pushing his multiple requirements that a man must do before God can save. He's obviously wrong. Everyone can see it, yet he keeps pushing it anyway. It's like Van who has this weird communal election after God has evaluated faith theory. Everyone knows he's wrong, yet he keeps pushing it. Now you hold a weird theory that you can't even clearly articulate on atonement that everyone knows is wrong, yet you keep pushing it anyway.
There is not a shred of evidence from scripture showing the substitutionary "atonement" of Christ.
No one was reconciled when (that instant) Christ died. Not one person was "at one with Christ" when He died.
It is a complete and vulgar fiction that individuals need not be placed spiritually into Christ to be reconciled, i.e. made alive TOGETHER with Christ. That, folks, is the "at one ment." Pay no attention to the gnostic nonsense Calvinism has imbued in their fictional rewrite of the definition of the English word "atonement."
The Law is holy, just and good.
What does it mean that Christ "bore our sins on the tree?"
No you don't. You see that our sin is judged. And you see in the law of the trespass offerings that the debts are paid.
Your saying it doesn't make it so.
There is judgment for sin.
No, not must die, will die, or must be changed. And by natural man is meant the spirit of man.
Born of God, not merely remade or regenerated, to enter the Kingdom.
As clarified by comments it was the Faith, and then
This is patently false.
God's Two Pictures of the Atonement in the Sacrifices
Patently false.
Begging the question.
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If only you knew what this means.
The man who sins must be atoned for, or will die. And by this is meant will die the Death, stand condemned in the day of wrath. We already died in Adam.
You're trying to put forth that we are paying the wages of our own sin in physical death. Our sins are judged in us, not in Christ. All that remains is to be brought to life. Not only does this betray a very small view of the scope of one's own sin, it betrays a very small view of the work of Christ.
By bearing our sins in His body, you don't mean that He actually took our own sins, but the general ennui and corruption that is a result of being exiled from Eden and having to contend with the abuse of others, and thorns and thistles, hard labor, injury, and decay.
This is a denial of Christ. The Christ you are preaching is not the Christ of the Gospels.
No, it is a righteousness apart from the deeds of the law. The law described the holy, just and perfect righteousness of God. What that law could not do was give life. And now that the One the law bore witness of appeared, the deeds of the law are no longer in force.
No, unbelievers must still die in their sins. Believers do not die the Death. Mere physical death is not the wages of sin. That's called sleep, really. Not death. And Paul states, that not all believers will sleep, but all will be changed.
You can see now that this isn't what is happening. And the question is really, how can God be just, and forgive sinners?
By the offering typified in the law.
Suppose that One who knew no sin could be made to be sin, and bear the curse of God for them, and rise again because it was not possible, that He could be held by a curse, not even the curse of God.
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