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I want to see an Arminian Exegete this passage
- Thread starter Calv1
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See how they deny even the obvious. Did MennoSota address the verse or its teachings? Nope. But on and on they go, trying to change the subject from scripture using falsehoods, disparagement and insults.
The fact is the very verse that Calvinists use to support false theology actually demonstrate the theology is false. Romans 11:7 being a prime example.
The fact is the very verse that Calvinists use to support false theology actually demonstrate the theology is false. Romans 11:7 being a prime example.
The "what then" is a statement that is the same as one drawing a conclusion, followed by that conclusion.
Verse 7 clearly is concluding the previous section. And that conclusion is that the national Israel has not obtained what it seeks. However, the CHOSEN did. Those NOT chosen were hardened.
What rendering could possibly give any other interpretation than the obvious?
See how Van ignores what is said and cries martyr. Did he address the topic of semi-pelagian belief? Nope. But on and on he goes trying to change the subject from his semi-pelagian belief to call himself a martyr.
The fact is the very verses Van comments on prove his belief to be incorrect. Yet, Van persists.
[emoji41] [emoji56] [emoji57] [emoji33] [emoji7] [emoji109]
Van said:
Agedman said:
Romans 11:7 (NASB) What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Nearly every word for word philosophy translation starts with "What then?" This refers to a condition established in the prior passage. And that condition is the existence of a remnant existing within Israel because of God's chose of grace.
Next we get "What Israel is seeking" which teaches the lost can and do seek God. But seeking God on the basis of works is futile, all our works of righteousness as as filthy rages to God. Thus by seeking a right relationship with God on the basis of works, Israel has not encountered that relationship.
But those who were chosen obtained it - a right relationship with God. The verse does not tell us the basis for God's gracious choice, but we were chosen through faith in the truth, thus saved by grace through faith.
Lastly, "and the rest (those not chosen on the basis of faith) were hardened so they would not at least for the time being, come to faith. This again teaches the lost have an innate capacity to believe in Christ, which was taken away to facilitate the spread of the gospel in the Gentiles.
In summary this verse, as with the entire Bible, provides no support for Calvinism, and in fact teaches the lost seek God in various ways, some by works and some by faith, and that God hardens those of His choosing to preclude coming to faith for His overall purpose.
Calv1
Active Member
Hey at least one FINALLY attempted it, though poorly at least he tried
I just like to demonstrate what LENGTHS these guys will go to hold onto their "Autonomy", they'll jump over and under, anything but what it plainly says, and says elsewhere. I think it's impossible to go through the book of Romans and remain a liberal, it's SO CLEAR, with Paul in Romans 9 Exegeting it for us!
And again ... what a muddled mess of soteriology. Those who castigate "Calvinists" need to pay close attention. Van believes not only that "God hardens those of His choosing to preclude coming to faith for His overall purpose" (a very "Calvinist" sentiment) but that he may harden the hearts of those who are seeking him and thus nullify their efforts.
Please give me a real Arminian any day to talk to; he at least can dicusss Reformed theology without making up his own dog's breakfast of soteriology.
P.S. I often read Wesley and Clarke and appreciate the work of modern classical Arminian Roger Olson. Olson (like Arminius and the Remonstrants) is from the Reformed tradition and believes there is no logical middle ground between "Calvinists" and "Arminians," though he agrees with "Calvinists" in decrying the semi-Pelagianism that is so rampant in modern Christianity.
Yet again, my faults are addressed, but at the same time their personal attack is denied.
This is all they have folks, feigned outrage over my views as being muddled. And the sickening thought I might teach others that Calvinism is false theology. But do they address scripture? Nope. They have one message - taint so and Van is rotten for saying so.
Returning to topic:
Romans 11:7 (NASB) What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Nearly every word for word philosophy translation starts with "What then?" This refers to a condition established in the prior passage. And that condition is the existence of a remnant existing within Israel because of God's chose of grace.
Next we get "What Israel is seeking" which teaches the lost can and do seek God. But seeking God on the basis of works is futile, all our works of righteousness as as filthy rages to God. Thus by seeking a right relationship with God on the basis of works, Israel has not encountered that relationship.
But those who were chosen obtained it - a right relationship with God. The verse does not tell us the basis for God's gracious choice, but we were chosen through faith in the truth, thus saved by grace through faith.
Lastly, "and the rest (those not chosen on the basis of faith) were hardened so they would not at least for the time being, come to faith. This again teaches the lost have an innate capacity to believe in Christ, which was taken away to facilitate the spread of the gospel in the Gentiles.
In summary this verse, as with the entire Bible, provides no support for Calvinism, and in fact teaches the lost seek God in various ways, some by works and some by faith, and that God hardens those of His choosing to preclude coming to faith for His overall purpose.
This is all they have folks, feigned outrage over my views as being muddled. And the sickening thought I might teach others that Calvinism is false theology. But do they address scripture? Nope. They have one message - taint so and Van is rotten for saying so.
Returning to topic:
Romans 11:7 (NASB) What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Nearly every word for word philosophy translation starts with "What then?" This refers to a condition established in the prior passage. And that condition is the existence of a remnant existing within Israel because of God's chose of grace.
Next we get "What Israel is seeking" which teaches the lost can and do seek God. But seeking God on the basis of works is futile, all our works of righteousness as as filthy rages to God. Thus by seeking a right relationship with God on the basis of works, Israel has not encountered that relationship.
But those who were chosen obtained it - a right relationship with God. The verse does not tell us the basis for God's gracious choice, but we were chosen through faith in the truth, thus saved by grace through faith.
Lastly, "and the rest (those not chosen on the basis of faith) were hardened so they would not at least for the time being, come to faith. This again teaches the lost have an innate capacity to believe in Christ, which was taken away to facilitate the spread of the gospel in the Gentiles.
In summary this verse, as with the entire Bible, provides no support for Calvinism, and in fact teaches the lost seek God in various ways, some by works and some by faith, and that God hardens those of His choosing to preclude coming to faith for His overall purpose.
When you see an effort to present my view, but without a quote, pay no attention. Does scripture say God has hardened hearts and has the capacity to harden hearts? Yes. Does scripture say God is currently hardening hearts to prevent those seeking God through faith in Christ from believing? Nope. Scripture says God has in the past hardened hearts to achieve His purpose, such as in Romans 11:7 (to facilitate the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles.)
I support every point of my view from scripture. It is simple, straightforward and without doublespeak. I have presented my view of Romans 11:7. Have you seen an alternate view? Of course not.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
Hey at least one FINALLY attempted it, though poorly at least he tried
"Autonomy" isn't the issue I have with Calvinism: on the contrary, it's the depiction of the perfect, Holy, righteous, omnipotent, omnipresent God as being someone with limited love. Because that isn't Biblical.
No one says God's love is limited. What I say is that you, personally, are forcing your concept of love upon God. In so doing it is you who limits God to fit into your image of love.
When God ordains hell for some and heaven for others that is an act of love. God is love, therefore his choices are always done in love...even if our finite little minds cannot comprehend how God's love functions when he justly damns people to hell.
This is not an attack on Van -"Sometimes I wonder if you [Van] read your own words," but a comment on his pronouncements.
Did you see the poster's behavior disparaged, or a comment on Romans 11:7?
If we look back up a few verses, we see yet another proof text for conditional election, 7000 who had not bowed a knee. On and on it goes, scripture teaching truth but scripture is ignored to foster false theology.
Did you see the poster's behavior disparaged, or a comment on Romans 11:7?
If we look back up a few verses, we see yet another proof text for conditional election, 7000 who had not bowed a knee. On and on it goes, scripture teaching truth but scripture is ignored to foster false theology.
Six Hour Warning
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This thread will be closed sometime after 5 PM Pacific.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Sir, Genesis 3:22 tells us that when man sinned, he came to know good and evil. So even lost men can discern what is good and what is evil. Furthermore, the verse some Calvinists use, "God's ways are higher than our ways" does not mean that we cannot comprehend how God's love functions: No sir, it means that God's righteousness is FAR higher than ours. His LOVE is more fervent. more pure, more Holy and righteous and kind than anything we could ever attain to. That's what it means.
Jesus was sent to this earth to be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Ever sing that song: "Could we with ink the ocean fill and were the skies of parchment made, were ever stalk on earth a quill and every man a scribe by trade, to write the love of God above, would drain the ocean dry, nor could the scroll contain the whole though stretched from sky to sky".,....His love is way bigger than even that. God never ordained anyone to Hell: people go there because of their own unbelief.
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What you mention is EVIL not Love.
You call EVIL Love. If we can do those SAME THINGS ie:
31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
This is not a command limited to humans. Jesus Christ says that is the perfect character of God.
There is nothing you can do that God does that would be sinful, Because God doesn't sin at all. He doesn't even have sugar coated sins.
Your perspective is based on what advantage you expect to have if you had absolute authority and power. SO you project your selfish image on God. Oh God can kill, steal and rape because he has authority and power.
It ain't about what you would do. The Character is JESUS CHRIST! Jesus Christ loves his enemies and does evil to N
NE. He puts other in front of himself. Protector. He will leave 99 elect perfect folks to look for a lost one. The Good Samaritan.Jesus' crown does not make him king. Jesus Christ makes whatever is on his head the crown. Your looking for gold and Jewels, Our Lord's crown is a crown of thorns.
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