I will pretend for a minute that I an a Calvinist

[Winman]

If I pretended to be a Calvinist, the first question I would ask is how do I know if I am elect? I know the answer I would get, "if you believe you are elect", but that would not satisfy me, because Calvinists believe a person must persevere to the end to actually know if they are elect, and I can not know that until I die. And I cannot know it even now, as I do not know how faithful you must be to persevere.

Calvin taught that God himself sends a delusion to deceive false believers called Evanescent Grace.

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Chapter II, Sections 10-12

though none are enlightened into faith, and truly feel the efficacy of the Gospel, with the exception of those who are fore-ordained to salvation, yet experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect, that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them.
​

Calvin himself could not seem to distinguish between who was truly elect and who was not, so how am I supposed to know if I am elect? Perhaps God has sent this delusion to fool me and I only think I am elect.

So, even one minute of being a Calvinist would be far too long for me.

 

[TCassidy]

Why one comes and another doesn't isn't because of God, but them.

Are you saying that the person who believes is somehow better than the person who doesn't?

So man can only blame themselves and they have no excuse.

So, you seem to be saying that the lost have no one to blame but themselves (which I agree with). But also, those who believe are somehow better then those who do not. There is some superior merit in those who believe as compared to those who do not?

It is only the one who the Father draws that will come and God said He will keep the meek and humble who will trust in the Lord.

You seem to have contradicted yourself. Help me to understand what you mean here. Are you saying the ones who come do so because God drew them but He did not draw the others?

He also said He will hide the truth from the wise and learned those who lean on their own understanding and not trust in the Lord. Those who are wise in their own eyes.

So it is God who does not reveal Himself to the wise and learned (in their own eyes) but because you were so meek and humble that God decided to save you on the basis of your own merit.

I promise you this trust in the Lord where there is no work involved and He will lead you or direct your path to eternal life.

But how can a person trust in God if he does not believe in God? Or how can a person trust in a God whom he hates and considers an enemy? (James 4:4)

 

[Amy.G]

Paul was the most arrogant, non-humble man on the planet when Jesus knocked him off his high horse. I don't think a humble heart is what made Paul believe.

 

[TCassidy]

Paul was the most arrogant, non-humble man on the planet when Jesus knocked him off his high horse. I don't think a humble heart is what made Paul believe.

I don't either. It was Jesus who came to Paul on the road, not Paul coming to Jesus. Jesus appeared to Paul and Paul did not even know who He was. He had to ask "Who are you, lord?"

 

[jbh28]

If I pretended to be a Calvinist, the first question I would ask is how do I know if I am elect? I know the answer I would get, "if you believe you are elect", but that would not satisfy me, because Calvinists believe a person must persevere to the end to actually know if they are elect, and I can not know that until I die. And I cannot know it even now, as I do not know how faithful you must be to persevere.

correction, you will persevere. It's not hoping you are saved. Some people will pretend to be saved, but no body will truly think they are saved and then at the last minute realize they are not elect.

 

[TCassidy]

correction, you will persevere. It's not hoping you are saved. Some people will pretend to be saved, but no body will truly think they are saved and then at the last minute realize they are not elect.

Correct. Many Arminians err in thinking Perseverance of the Saints teaches that we must persevere in order to be saved, but in reality it is the other way around. We persevere because we are saved.

 

[psalms109:31]

Someone who is meek and humble is not better than anyone else, they know it.

They know they don't deserve it.

It does not matter how arrogant you are when you are called you humble yourself and give your life to Him as you are and He will change you.

He keeps the meek and humble it isn't me who chooses who He keeps

If you think you are better than anyone else than you are not to humble.

To be the worst sinner is to see yourself as not better than anyone else but worst than all sinner.

1 Corinthians 1 :
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[Jer. 9:24]

Romans 4:5
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.

1 Peter 2:6
For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

I am sorry I don't want human reasoning to give me others excuses.

We can be like those in the beginning and say it the serpeant that you created that made me do it, it was the women you created that made me do it.

I can by human reason blame God for the state I am or admit and humble myself before a mighty God and come begging at His mercy seat.

2 Corinthians 12:
9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

 

[TCassidy]

Thank you for your response Psalm109:31 but it doesn't really address my questions. I asked:

Are you saying that the person who believes is somehow better than the person who doesn't?

To which you responded:

Someone who is meek and humble is not better than anyone else, they know it.

They know they don't deserve it.

Okay, I agree. But that answer also begs the question, if the person did not deserve God's Grace, why did one undeserving person receive grace and the other did not?

Why did you believe and the other guy didn't? What is the difference between the two of you? Why did you receive undeserved grace but the other guy didn't?

What is the difference between you and him?

 

[Luke2427]

Thank you for your response Psalm109:31 but it doesn't really address my questions. I asked:To which you responded:Okay, I agree. But that answer also begs the question, if the person did not deserve God's Grace, why did one undeserving person receive grace and the other did not?

Why did you believe and the other guy didn't? What is the difference between the two of you? Why did you receive undeserved grace but the other guy didn't?

What is the difference between you and him?

Exactly.

Only two possible answers exist.

1. The one who "accepts" Christ is better in some way than the one who does not.

2. God did the choosing.

And by the way, even if option 1 were viable, the problem would still remain- why is he better? How did he get better? Who made him better?

 

[psalms109:31]

Thank you for your response Psalm109:31 but it doesn't really address my questions. I asked:To which you responded:Okay, I agree. But that answer also begs the question, if the person did not deserve God's Grace, why did one undeserving person receive grace and the other did not?

Why did you believe and the other guy didn't? What is the difference between the two of you? Why did you receive undeserved grace but the other guy didn't?

What is the difference between you and him?

The difference isn't that the other isn't better than the other the difference is pride and it is God said.

Daniel 10:12
Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them.

2 Chronicles 16:9
For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. You have done a foolish thing, and from now on you will be at war.”

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, it isn't God stopping them, but their own pride.

You can't get the answer you want if it isn't true.

 

[TCassidy]

The difference isn't that the other isn't better than the other the difference is pride and it is God said.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, it isn't God stopping them, but their own pride.

You can't get the answer you want if it isn't true.

So you are saying the difference is that the other guy was proud, but you were not? And because you were not proud God saved you, but because the other guy was proud God did not save him?

And I am not trying to get the answer I want. I am trying to figure out why you believe God saved you but left the other guy in unbelief.

 

[psalms109:31]

So you are saying the difference is that the other guy was proud, but you were not? And because you were not proud God saved you, but because the other guy was proud God did not save him?

And I am not trying to get the answer I want. I am trying to figure out why you believe God saved you but left the other guy in unbelief.

God saves because of His word says so, not because of what I believe.

I can believe I was chosen out of the world over someone else and be proud of it, and say it is God who chose but it is still a belief that i chose to believe in.

 

[Winman]

correction, you will persevere. It's not hoping you are saved. Some people will pretend to be saved, but no body will truly think they are saved and then at the last minute realize they are not elect.

Yes, the ELECT will persevere, but not everyone who believes they are the elect will persevere. That is the point. If you are a Calvinist, the only way you can hope to know if you are the elect is if you do persevere. It is works salvation.

And Calvin did not say that persons will pretend to believe, he said God sends a strong delusion where many people will sincerely believe they are true believers but are not.

Experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence, it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption .... there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith .... Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their mind to this extent .... there is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent(3.2.11, Institutes).

So, according to Calvin, even if you think you sincerely believe you have no assurance of being saved.

Calvin even said some "accept the gift of reconciliation" and yet are lost. Wow.

 

[psalms109:31]

Human reasoning, trying to reason this stuff in our carnal mind isn't going to help you to the truth, only Jesus can so trust in Him not in your reasoning things out or your own understanding

 

[Luke2427]

Yes, the ELECT will persevere, but not everyone who believes they are the elect will persevere. That is the point. If you are a Calvinist, the only way you can hope to know if you are the elect is if you do persevere. It is works salvation.

And Calvin did not say that persons will pretend to believe, he said God sends a strong delusion where many people will sincerely believe they are true believers but are not.



So, according to Calvin, even if you think you sincerely believe you have no assurance of being saved.

Calvin even said some "accept the gift of reconciliation" and yet are lost. Wow.

Yes. Calvin did believe that God would enlighten some of the non-elect to a certain point and not finally save them.

But he did not say that these enlightened people had any right to think they were saved. They did not get saved.

EVERYONE who is enlightened to the point of salvation can KNOW that he is saved.

There is discrepancy among the history of Calvinists over this issue of assurance. There is no doubt. Some of the Puritans seemed to doubt that you could know for certain that you were elect.

There have been many more Calvinists who rightly recognize, on the other hand, that the truly saved, not just enlightened ones, can have assurance of their salvation.

 

[TCassidy]

God saves because of His word says so, not because of what I believe.

I can believe I was chosen out of the world over someone else and be proud of it, and say it is God who chose but it is still a belief that i chose to believe in.

But to me it still seems as if you are saying "I was smarter-better-humbler-more spiritual than the other guy so God saved me."

It seems to me that it is you who is proud of being better than the guy who did not get saved. (That is not an accusation, just an observation regarding your charge that some who believe as I do are guilty of believing "I was chosen out of the world over someone else and be proud of it." Such is certainly not the case with me although I can't speak for any of the others.)

You say you chose to believe, but doesn't Jesus say "You did not choose me, I chose you?"

And doesn't the bible say that faith is a gift from God, not a choice of man?

So, back to the original question. Why did you believe and your neighbor did not? What about you was better than something about him?

 

[jbh28]

Yes, the ELECT will persevere, but not everyone who believes they are the elect will persevere. That is the point. If you are a Calvinist, the only way you can hope to know if you are the elect is if you do persevere. It is works salvation.

No, not at all. I just refuted what you said. Don't keep repeating it. You're wrong.

 

[jbh28]

Yes. Calvin did believe that God would enlighten some of the non-elect to a certain point and not finally save them.

But he did not say that these enlightened people had any right to think they were saved. They did not get saved.

EVERYONE who is enlightened to the point of salvation can KNOW that he is saved.

There is discrepancy among the history of Calvinists over this issue of assurance. There is no doubt. Some of the Puritans seemed to doubt that you could know for certain that you were elect.

There have been many more Calvinists who rightly recognize, on the other hand, that the truly saved, not just enlightened ones, can have assurance of their salvation.

:thumbsup:

 

[psalms109:31]

But to me it still seems as if you are saying "I was smarter-better-humbler-more spiritual than the other guy so God saved me."

It seems to me that it is you who is proud of being better than the guy who did not get saved. (That is not an accusation, just an observation regarding your charge that some who believe as I do are guilty of believing "I was chosen out of the world over someone else and be proud of it." Such is certainly not the case with me although I can't speak for any of the others.)

You say you chose to believe, but doesn't Jesus say "You did not choose me, I chose you?"

And doesn't the bible say that faith is a gift from God, not a choice of man?

So, back to the original question. Why did you believe and your neighbor did not? What about you was better than something about him?

The faith is given through the words of Jesus and the words about Jesus our faith is Jesus.

Jesus not me said that you trust in Him you will be saved.

My faith that came from God , if you want to say it is pride go ahead, what ever floats your boat.

It isn't pride it is faith, not because of I am better than anyone else as you assume, but because of God word.

Faith is not pride no matter what men want to tell you.

God said He will keep the meek and humble who will trust in the Lord, so yes He choose us praise Jesus

 

[TCassidy]

Human reasoning, trying to reason this stuff in our carnal mind isn't going to help you to the truth, only Jesus can so trust in Him not in your reasoning things out or your own understanding

I agree. My faith and trust is 100% in Christ. All of Him and none of me. But you seem to reason that it is mostly Christ but just a little bit of you added to it. At least that is how I am understanding what you are writing.

And that is the sticking point. If you had to do something - believe, submit, receive, etc. - then can you say that your salvation is 100% of God and not just a little bit of you - I.E. being humble, believing, submitting, etc.

That is where I am having trouble understanding your position. You admit, rightly, that you don't deserve salvation, but still you got it and your neighbor didn't. And the question remains "Why?" What is different between you and your neighbor. Is he a worse sinner than you? Is he less enlightened than you? Is he less humble than you? In some way you must have been better than he in order to receive God's gift of salvation. ???