I will pretend for a minute that I an a Calvinist

[Luke2427]

But to me it still seems as if you are saying "I was smarter-better-humbler-more spiritual than the other guy so God saved me."

It seems to me that it is you who is proud of being better than the guy who did not get saved. (That is not an accusation, just an observation regarding your charge that some who believe as I do are guilty of believing "I was chosen out of the world over someone else and be proud of it." Such is certainly not the case with me although I can't speak for any of the others.)

You say you chose to believe, but doesn't Jesus say "You did not choose me, I chose you?"

And doesn't the bible say that faith is a gift from God, not a choice of man?

So, back to the original question. Why did you believe and your neighbor did not? What about you was better than something about him?

Even deeper to the root of the matter is that faith is never a choice period.

You do not CHOOSE to believe in anything.

You are persuaded to believe it.

If you can choose to believe or choose NOT to believe- try choosing NOT to believe that you exist.

You can't.

You never in your life made a CHOICE to believe that you exist.

Choice has nothing to do with faith.

 

[TCassidy]

The faith is given through the words of Jesus and the words about Jesus our faith is Jesus.

I agree. But the question remains why did you have that faith and your neighbor did not?

Jesus not me said that you trust in Him you will be saved.

I agree. But where did that trust come from? Why did you have it and not your neighbor.

My faith that came from God , if you want to say it is pride go ahead, what ever floats your boat.

Two points. 1. I agree. Faith comes from God. So, why did God give you faith but did not give it to your neighbor?

2. I did not say it is pride. You were the one who brought up pride.

It isn't pride it is faith, not because of I am better than anyone else as you assume, but because of God word.

But I did not assume you are better than anyone else. I assume just the opposite. It is you who keeps insisting there was something about you that was better than your neighbor resulting in your being saved and his being lost.

So, the question remains, why? Why are you saved and your neighbor lost? If it is all of God, and not of your works or innate goodness, why are you saved and not your neighbor?

Faith is not pride no matter what men want to tell you.

I don't think faith is pride. It was you who made the accusation that folks who believe as I do are proud (even though there is no evidence to support that charge).

But the question remains unanswered. If man's merit has no part in salvation why is one man saved and another lost?

 

[TCassidy]

Choice has nothing to do with faith.

I agree. And so does Jesus. In Matthew 6:27 Jesus effectively says "Who by choosing can add an inch to his height or a single moment to his life?" The answer of course is no one can. If we believe we cannot add an inch to our height but we think we can choose to be forever saved we have simply deluded ourselves.

 

[psalms109:31]

I agree. My faith and trust is 100% in Christ. All of Him and none of me. But you seem to reason that it is mostly Christ but just a little bit of you added to it. At least that is how I am understanding what you are writing.

And that is the sticking point. If you had to do something - believe, submit, receive, etc. - then can you say that your salvation is 100% of God and not just a little bit of you - I.E. being humble, believing, submitting, etc.

That is where I am having trouble understanding your position. You admit, rightly, that you don't deserve salvation, but still you got it and your neighbor didn't. And the question remains "Why?" What is different between you and your neighbor. Is he a worse sinner than you? Is he less enlightened than you? Is he less humble than you? In some way you must have been better than he in order to receive God's gift of salvation. ???

I do nothing, because trust isn't work only men what to say it is, this trust comes from a will that is not our own, but the will of Jesus.

I do not believe in free will, so where I go is by the will of Jesus, not my own.

My salvation is 100 percent God because of the cost of my sin is death, not belief, not trust, not repentance.

If I do all those things repent, believe, trust, it still doesn't pay my debt.

I will not get rid of the responsibility of man. We are responsible to trust, but trust did not save us Jesus and the cross did.

If the wages of my sin was trust then and only then will it be 100 percent me. The cost tells us it is 100 percent God.

The faith I received from God tells me this.

 

[TCassidy]

I do nothing, because trust isn't work only men what to say it is, this trust comes from a will that is not our own, but the will of Jesus.

I do not believe in free will, so where I go is by the will of Jesus, not my own.

My salvation is 100 percent God because of the cost of my salvation is death, not belief, not trust, not repentance.

If I do all those things repent, believe, trust, it still doesn't pay my debt.

I will not get rid of the responsibility of man. We are responsible to trust, but trust did not save us Jesus and the cross did.

If the wages of my sin was trust then and only then will it be 100 percent me. The cost tells us it is 100 percent God.

The faith I received from God tells me this.

Okay, I agree. But you still have not answered the question. Why do you believe and your neighbor doesn't?

 

[Winman]

Yes. Calvin did believe that God would enlighten some of the non-elect to a certain point and not finally save them.

But he did not say that these enlightened people had any right to think they were saved. They did not get saved.

EVERYONE who is enlightened to the point of salvation can KNOW that he is saved.

There is discrepancy among the history of Calvinists over this issue of assurance. There is no doubt. Some of the Puritans seemed to doubt that you could know for certain that you were elect.

There have been many more Calvinists who rightly recognize, on the other hand, that the truly saved, not just enlightened ones, can have assurance of their salvation.

No Luke, according to Calvin these folks are truly convinced they are believers and the elect but are not. And Calvin taught that God himself is the one who sent this deception to deceive these unelect.

You should preach that to your congregation tomorrow.

 

[psalms109:31]

Okay, I agree. But you still have not answered the question. Why do you believe and your neighbor doesn't?

Because of pride, not because of God.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge off the truth

Faith is not pride in self, but pride in God and His word

 

[Amy.G]

Because of pride, not because of God.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge off the truth

Faith is not pride in self, but pride in God and His word

I think we're going in circles.

 

[psalms109:31]

I think we're going in circles.

Mat 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Circular reasoning :laugh:

 

[TCassidy]

Because of pride, not because of God.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge off the truth

Faith is not pride in self, but pride in God and His word

So you are saying that God saved you because you had pride in Him and His word but your neighbor did not have pride in God or His word so God did not save him?

 

[TCassidy]

I think we're going in circles.

I agree. He seems to be circling, circling, circling, the bush but never actually coming to the point.

 

[psalms109:31]

So you are saying that God saved you because you had pride in Him and His word but your neighbor did not have pride in God or His word so God did not save him?

It is because of what God says that men is saved, not because of you being better than another.

It is Him who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, well I will not hinder them who are coming because of they are better than someone. I will praise God they are coming.

It seems it is you are assuming the bad.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[TCassidy]

I also have to note that seekingthetruth has been on the forum today but has not answer posts addressed to him. He seems to have bowed out of the discussion. That, of course, begs the question: If he didn't want to discuss it why did he start the thread?

 

[psalms109:31]

I agree. He seems to be circling, circling, circling, the bush but never actually coming to the point.

You are not getting the conclusion you want so it will go in circles, because I am telling you what you want to believe to be true

 

[Winman]

Okay, I agree. But you still have not answered the question. Why do you believe and your neighbor doesn't?

Some men believe God's word, while others choose to believe the devil's word, just like what happened in the garden.

God tells us to have faith, to wait on what we cannot see, the devil tells you this is foolishness, and you should grab all the pleasure you can in the here and now.

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Moses grew up in Pharaoh's house, he could have had anything he wanted earthly speaking. But he believed the word of God, most likely taught him by his mother when she nursed him, and chose to believe in God and follow his ways.

People want pleasure NOW. They love it and they want to enjoy it now. They do not want to be told they should not sin, they want to enjoy the pleasures of sin. They do not want to wait for a greater reward which they cannot see with their eyes, they want what they can see now.

 

[TCassidy]

It is because of what God says that men is saved, not because of you being better than another.

It is Him who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, well I will not hinder them who are coming because of they are better than someone. I will praise God they are coming.

It seems it is you are assuming the bad.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Once again, I agree with all that, but it still does not answer the question. If God wants all people to be saved, and you are no better than your neighbor, why did you get saved but your neighbor didn't? Why could God save you but, for some reason, could not save your neighbor?

 

[Luke2427]

I agree. And so does Jesus. In Matthew 6:27 Jesus effectively says "Who by choosing can add an inch to his height or a single moment to his life?" The answer of course is no one can. If we believe we cannot add an inch to our height but we think we can choose to be forever saved we have simply deluded ourselves.

Right. Good thoughts.

 

[TCassidy]

You are not getting the conclusion you want so it will go in circles, because I am telling you what you want to believe to be true

The only reason it keeps going in circles is that you don't seem to be able to articulate an answer to the question. I am not trying to get the conclusion I want, I am trying to get you to tell me why God could save you but could not (seemingly) save your neighbor. To me it seems like a pretty simple question but you seem to be having a terrible time answering it.

 

[psalms109:31]

Once again, I agree with all that, but it still does not answer the question. If God wants all people to be saved, and you are no better than your neighbor, why did you get saved but your neighbor didn't? Why could God save you but, for some reason, could not save your neighbor?

It is because of pride

Daniel is awesome

Dan 10:12 Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them.

We are responsible, not what we do saves us but what God did.

 

[TCassidy]

Right. Good thoughts.

Yes. Jesus has a way of cutting through all of our biases and going right to the heart of the matter.