If Adam Hadn't Sinned...

[Iconoclast]

thank you for your excellent post.

Ezekial 18 tells me plainly there is no inherited sin. Guilt or responsibility and I am responsible for my own sin as was my father and so forth. So I cannot subscribe to the first part of the first view.

But secondly, We do have the same fallen spirit as Adam, not due to flesh but because we are sinful spiritual beings. Other sinful beings do not have choices at all, but man, before redemption has been given the opportunity to be able to respond to spiritual stimuli, (the working of the Holy ghost within the heart). So our choices as lost humans are guided to a position to accept/deny salvation.


but because I put more value in our spiritual beings over our fleshly bodies, I recognize humanity is the method whereby God could save souls (unique individual creations of God) by the death of the shared flesh and blood. Jesus was not sinless because He had no earthy father, but because He was God in a body.

All sinned in Adam
All died in Adam......All
romans 3:23
romans 5:12-21

 

[Aaron]

We need to be careful, it looks like folks are saying are bodies are evil. Our bodies are vessels. They are good. What animates them, is corrupt.

 

[Aaron]

But here is what happened. God made Adam and Eve good. He put them in the Garden. They were corrupted by the lies of the Serpent, and a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

God knew that it would happen that way, and, being that God foreknew it, it is impossible that it would have happend any other way.

 

[percho]

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. For we know that the law is spiritual:
But I am carnal, sold under sin.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

[Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?]

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, (sold under sin) that we might receive the adoption of sons. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to beconformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy [him] that had the power of death, that is, the [devil]; He that committeth sin is of the [devil]; for the [devil] sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the [devil].

Just some scriptures....................Emphasis.

 

[TomLaPalm]

All sinned in Adam
All died in Adam......All
romans 3:23
romans 5:12-21

Rom 7:20

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

We all sinned and were dead in sin, but it is our fault , not Adam's

Sin cannot be inherited

Eze 18:19
¶
Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him

So All have sinned is correct but not in Adam.

from Romans 7 18
carnal , fleshly is not the body (soma) but from sarx from human nature or animal nature, base nature

 

[Iconoclast]

"TomLaPalm,https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rom/7/20/s_1053020

Hello Tom,
You are not dealing with the stated facts from romans 3:23.....
At one point in time -ALL SINNED- Consequently we are sinners from conception and children of wrath. That is the biblical starting point and the verses you offer do not change that fact.

You can study it out , look up federal headship in Adam.
Here from A Baptist Catechism with Commentary, by WR. Downing;

Adam stood as Representative Man, and therefore when he sinned in apostatizing from God, the whole human race fell in him as their federal head. This is called “original sin,” or immediate imputation. Even if a person could begin from any point in his or her life and live perfectly without sin—even if this were possible—he or she would still be utterly condemned because of original sin [the imputation of Adam’s transgression]. The condemnation and guilt of sin are thus inescapable. See Question 66. When Adam and Eve, as sinners, had children, they, too, were sinners (Gen. 5:3). The defacement of the Divine image in man was passed to all of Adam’s posterity by both imputation and inheritance. Thus, all human beings not only have original sin, but also a sinful nature and so are prone to personal sin. The inheritance of Adam’s sinful nature and proneness to transgression is termed “‘mediate’ imputation” (Rom. 3:9–18). Both the immediate and mediate imputation of sin are awful realties. Every subsequent human being consequently evidences his or her sinful state by personal sins in disposition, inclination, motivation, thought, word and deed as being under its reigning power. Because all human beings are sinners, all stand in need of salvation from both the reigning power of sin and from its immediate and ultimate consequences. It is not only noteworthy, but absolutely vital to understand that, even with the curse, there came the promise of a redeemer (Gen. 3:15) [the protevangelium, or first promise of the gospel]. This Divine revelation to the serpent as a challenge and to man as a promise demonstrates constantly that God is a God of purpose, who delights in mercy and glories in grace (Isa. 45:22; Jn. 3:16–18)!

Rom 7:20

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

We all sinned and were dead in sin, but it is our fault , not Adam's

Sin cannot be inherited

We sinned in Adam, we sin by experience.

Eze 18:19
¶
Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him

This means we have to pay for our own sins also,

So All have sinned is correct but not in Adam.

The word of God is crystal clear on this.

from Romans 7 18
carnal , fleshly is not the body (soma) but from sarx from human nature or animal nature, base nature

this is another thread, you are missing it.

 

[agedman]

Was not all human kind "in Adam" for all humankind are Adam's progeny?

Therefore, because we were "IN Adam" therefore all sinned in Adam before they were born in the flesh.

Yet, in case someone would attempt to throw up in God's face that they didn't have a choice in the matter while "in Adam," God also specifies that each bears their own responsibility.

Adam's specific rebellion was born by Adam, just as ours is born by ourselves.

It must certainly be acknowledged that Adam was not immune to certain consequences for the descendants, just as any parent's sin inflicts harm on the unborn.

 

[percho]

What effect did the sin of Adam have upon the Christ?

 

[agedman]

What effect did the sin of Adam have upon the Christ?

Christ was not born of the seed of Adam, but of the seed of God as the second Adam.

Where mere humans are sinful from conception, Christ was not.

 

[percho]

Christ was not born of the seed of Adam, but of the seed of God as the second Adam.

Where mere humans are sinful from conception, Christ was not.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Heb 2:14,16

Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: 2 Tim 2:8

Huh?

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18 Was that in bold even possible had not the Word, become flesh? Come into the world as Adam his figure?

Did the sin of Adam bring sin to all men or did it bring death to all men? And yes I understand, all have sinned.

Why did Adam sin? Consider: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:8

Here is why I believe Adam sinned.
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; NKJV Rom 8:20
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen 1:27 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.Gen 2:7,8,17
Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. NKJV Rom 7:12-14

Why? Because of the, "In Hope," of Romans 8:20. That, "hope," being what had already, before the creation of Adam and the world he would live in, had been foreordained. Redemption; See 1 Peter 1:18-20 Redemption would allow that which had been sold to be adopted as sons. Born of God unable to sin. See Gal 4:4,5 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[fn] of a woman, born under the law, And; 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:8

All of that required, life from the dead for the Son of God. The sinless One.

And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 1 Cor 15:17

 

[JonC]

What effect did the sin of Adam have upon the Christ?

Death.

 

[TomLaPalm]

Christ was not born of the seed of Adam, but of the seed of God as the second Adam.

Where mere humans are sinful from conception, Christ was not.

If I was sinful

"TomLaPalm,

Hello Tom,
You are not dealing with the stated facts from romans 3:23.....
At one point in time -ALL SINNED- Consequently we are sinners from conception and children of wrath. That is the biblical starting point and the verses you offer do not change that fact.

You can study it out , look up federal headship in Adam.
Here from A Baptist Catechism with Commentary, by WR. Downing;


We sinned in Adam, we sin by experience.


This means we have to pay for our own sins also,


The word of God is crystal clear on this.


this is another thread, you are missing it.

all have sinned is not in dispute, "All "is everyone here in this place. There are even sinners here who are not human. Sinners were kick out of Heaven. All sinners are here. The only reason this universe exists is because of sin. Each is responsible for their own sin, no one else's

Adam bringing sin into the physical did nothing to change the spiritual world. It already had sin in it.

The soul sins, not the DNA inherited from Adam. We each have our own soul, it is not from Adam. It is from God. The soul sins/or not, the body cells cannot.

 

[TomLaPalm]

Death.

not only death but God becoming a man is because of sin, but not just Adam's. All sin was paid for by His death.

 

[TomLaPalm]

we know "angels" sin,, no bodies. though So we must agree sin exists, spiritually
It exists in the part of us that is eternal. Sin of the soul effects our physical being but the body does not sin nor pass sin along to another generation.

Adam sinned, you sinned, It is not cause and effect. It is personal responsibility. Quit blaming Adam for our sin.

 

[JonC]

not only death but God becoming a man is because of sin, but not just Adam's. All sin was paid for by His death.

Yes, I agree - the incarnation to the Cross is to redeem man. The only affect that of sin, if I understood the original question correctly, that Jesus experienced was death (I believe physical death, a consequence of sin, yet without sin and as fully man).

 

[TomLaPalm]

Yes, I agree - the incarnation to the Cross is to redeem man. The only affect that of sin, if I understood the original question correctly, that Jesus experienced was death (I believe physical death, a consequence of sin, yet without sin and as fully man).

don't forget, HE humbled himself or removed the glory He rightfully deserved, to become the servant.
Focus on more than the physical. He had compassion for us. He wept for Jerusalem. He was greatly affected by sin, but not just Adam's

in a broader picture, All of creation exist to redeem sinners, but that is not just Adam, as the question asks

 

[TomLaPalm]

Christ was not born of the seed of Adam, but of the seed of God as the second Adam.

Where mere humans are sinful from conception, Christ was not.

Where is second adam ,used? I find last Adam

 

[TomLaPalm]

Conception is not sinful. It is God's way which by one man's death ALL MAY be saved through the shared death and shed blood. We are physically related to Jesus by are spiritually unique unrelated creations of God

 

[JonC]

don't forget, HE humbled himself or removed the glory He rightfully deserved, to become the servant.
Focus on more than the physical. He had compassion for us. He wept for Jerusalem. He was greatly affected by sin, but not just Adam's

in a broader picture, All of creation exist to redeem sinners, but that is not just Adam, as the question asks

Please expound, brother, on your statement "All of creation exists to redeem sinners." Perhaps the word "redeem" (which I take as meaning "purchase") is throwing me off, but I don't think I understand what you mean here. In fact, I know I don't. Thanks.

 

[Iconoclast]

If I was sinful


all have sinned is not in dispute, "All "is everyone here in this place. There are even sinners here who are not human. Sinners were kick out of Heaven. All sinners are here. The only reason this universe exists is because of sin. Each is responsible for their own sin, no one else's

Adam bringing sin into the physical did nothing to change the spiritual world. It already had sin in it.

The soul sins, not the DNA inherited from Adam. We each have our own soul, it is not from Adam. It is from God. The soul sins/or not, the body cells cannot.

If you fail to understand these portions of Romans you will continue on in false ideas,and quite frankly, make believe teachings that have no root in scripture.