If Adam Hadn't Sinned...

[TomLaPalm]

Please expound, brother, on your statement "All of creation exists to redeem sinners." Perhaps the word "redeem" (which I take as meaning "purchase") is throwing me off, but I don't think I understand what you mean here. Thanks.

re-deem means more than purchase of a new item but to regain possession .
Reconcile has a previous relationship as well. One cannot reconcile with a new friend .

All that was created could exist in Heaven, Sin even first existed in Heaven. No redemption in Heaven though, It could not because there is no "kinship" of the created beings. There is no brotherhood.
Only those who sinned need redemption, Redemption , by one for many, could only occurr in a physical world where flesh and blood exist and are shared by sinners.

So the only reason the physical world exists is redemption, everything else could or did occur in Heaven

 

[TomLaPalm]

If you fail to understand these portions of Romans you will continue on in false ideas,and quite frankly, make believe teachings that have no root in scripture.

I got Romans.

It is very dangerous of you to develop doctrine solely from an English translation. Especially compounded with Humanism . Do you not understand inherited sin is a trick of the devil that ultimately reduces to blaming God for your sinful state?



Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


When did they know GOD?

 

[Iconoclast]

="TomLaPalm,

I got Romans.

Friend...if you had romans you would not question the teaching.

It is very dangerous of you to develop doctrine solely from an English translation.

So....if that is so, give me a translation that you believe captures these passages more accurately...let's see what you have got!CautiousCautiousCautious I think you are bluffing...Sneaky

Especially compounded with Humanism .

This is borderline incoherent. Who mentioned humanism at all?Cautious

Do you not understand inherited sin is a trick of the devil that ultimately reduces to blaming God for your sinful state?

This shows you do not understand Romans yet...sorry but you are grasping at the proverbial straws

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
When did they know GOD?

Before the flood men had a knowledge of God but turned to idolatry as they were dead in Adam.

 

[TomLaPalm]

="TomLaPalm,

Friend...if you had romans you would not question the teaching.


So....if that is so, give me a translation that you believe captures these passages more accurately...let's see what you have got!CautiousCautiousCautious I think you are bluffing...Sneaky

This is borderline incoherent. Who mentioned humanism at all?Cautious



This shows you do not understand Romans yet...sorry but you are grasping at the proverbial straws




Before the flood men had a knowledge of God but turned to idolatry as they were dead in Adam.

The verses says sinners knew God. A relationship, Previously

You mentioned Humanism , but you didn't know it.

Humanism, or placing undue importance on the human experience over the spiritual , is throughout translations. You dwell in it by blaming Adam for your sinful state. It is a deception .

Blaming Adam for our sin is plainly contradicts Ezekiel 18

Here is where man blames God

Eze 18:25
Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

Eze 18:30¶
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turnyourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.


Compare the English, Young's Literal Translation or read the NT direct (literal) Greek or Aramaic, not the reverse interlinear either. It is difficult (for me at least) but very rewarding.

 

[JonC]

re-deem means more than purchase of a new item but to regain possession .
Reconcile has a previous relationship as well. One cannot reconcile with a new friend .

All that was created could exist in Heaven, Sin even first existed in Heaven. No redemption in Heaven though, It could not because there is no "kinship" of the created beings. There is no brotherhood.
Only those who sinned need redemption, Redemption , by one for many, could only occurr in a physical world where flesh and blood exist and are shared by sinners.

So the only reason the physical world exists is redemption, everything else could or did occur in Heaven

Forgive my forgetfulness, brother. We have discussed your ideas about the spiritual and physical, and the necessity of the physical world in order to redeem the spiritual, on another thread. I had failed to make the connection. I still strongly disagree with your viewpoint, but (now that my brain is functioning at least at half capacity) recalling your position I can make sense of your posts.

 

[Iconoclast]

"TomLaPalm,

The verses says sinners knew God. A relationship, Previously

yes...before the flood

You mentioned Humanism , but you didn't know it

.
no...not at all

Humanism, or placing undue importance on the human experience over the spiritual , is throughout translations. You dwell in it by blaming Adam for your sinful state. It is a deception .

nonsense

Blaming Adam for our sin is plainly contradicts Ezekiel 18

you do not understand ezk 18

Here is where man blames God

I do not blame God at all.

Eze 18:25
Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

Eze 18:30¶
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turnyourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

these verses have no bearing on this discussion

Compare the English, Young's Literal Translation

That is till english...it just places the word order more as the greek text does.

or read the NT direct (literal) Greek or Aramaic, not the reverse interlinear either. It is difficult (for me at least) but very rewarding.

yes...so you show me from the greek how romans 3;23 does not teach what i declared it does.

 

[SovereignGrace]

When ppl stray from the Federal Headship of Adam, doctrines run amuck. Such an example is in this thread now.

 

[JonC]

When ppl stray from the Federal Headship of Adam, doctrines run amuck. Such an example is in this thread now.

I don't think straying from the federal headship of Adam is the source of the "amuckness" here.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Why did you disagree,.Jon? Look at TLP's stance. It is off the rails, theologically speaking.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I don't think straying from the federal headship of Adam is the source of the "amuckness" here.

TLP's posts prove otherwise.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Why did you disagree,.Jon? Look at TLP's stance. It is off the rails, theologically speaking.

Yep. No reason to disagree here.

 

[JonC]

Why did you disagree,.Jon? Look at TLP's stance. It is off the rails, theologically speaking.

I agree that it's "off the rails", but I think his detour is a bit deeper than denying the federal headship of Adam. Had I not remembered other conversations, I may have agreed with you. (I don't mean anything negative, brother, just that I don't think that doctrine answers for his theology. I believe his position and our positions are farther apart than you indicate).

Maybe this will help explain why I disagreed:

http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/why-did-god-create-the-physical-universe.98798/

 

[JonC]

Yep. No reason to disagree here.

Do you believe that the difference between TLP's position is that he rejects the Federal Headship of Adam?

Please, brother, explain how that difference accounts for his position.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Do you believe that the difference between TLP's position is that he rejects the Federal Headship of Adam?

Please, brother, explain how that difference accounts for his position.

It wouldn't amount to a profitable engagement so I'll pass. I choose the 'quick response' method. It expresses my opinion concisely.

 

[JonC]

TLP's posts prove otherwise.

I believe the disagreement between your position and Tom's is greater than his denial of the headship of Adam.

I'm pulling your position a bit farther away from TLP's as I think there is a larger gulf between his view and yours on this point. You seem to have a biblical view here, brother, and I thought the emphasis important.

 

[TomLaPalm]

="TomLaPalm,

Friend...if you had romans you would not question the teaching.


So....if that is so, give me a translation that you believe captures these passages more accurately...let's see what you have got!CautiousCautiousCautious I think you are bluffing...Sneaky

This is borderline incoherent. Who mentioned humanism at all?Cautious



This shows you do not understand Romans yet...sorry but you are grasping at the proverbial straws




Before the flood men had a knowledge of God but turned to idolatry as they were dead in Adam.

I am not question the teaching from God's Word at all. I do strongly question man 's misinterpretation of the meaning and the willingness to choose man's opinions over clear scripture.

is it your position Ezekial 18 is wrong?

 

[JonC]

I choose the 'quick response' method. It expresses my opinion concisely.

Yep. That and so much more. Thumbsup

Rating a thread is so much more concise than than a brief but comprehensive explanation.....that is, if you have no comprehension to offer.....

....."concise" means "brief but comprehensive"....your rating is brief but not comprehensive....comprehension being a play on words...........comprehend? LaughLaughLaughLaugh

 

[TomLaPalm]

I agree that it's "off the rails", but I think his detour is a bit deeper than denying the federal headship of Adam. Had I not remembered other conversations, I may have agreed with you. (I don't mean anything negative, brother, just that I don't think that doctrine answers for his theology).

Maybe this will help explain why I disagreed:

http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/why-did-god-create-the-physical-universe.98798/

yes, I believe the federal headship of Adam is a minor error compared to the most important point., It is difficult to measure to whom I am responding .

But let us try, Consider if "THE souls of MEN are the fallen elohyim. or "angels". We are the bad guys in the Bible narrative and that Humanity is the method of redemption

Consider, the expulsion, the necessity of the physical world, and the method of redemption , Purpose for Israel, even Scripture etc. if the statement is true

I know with your knowledge of Scripture you can think about this scenario i objectively in detail . You may find an possible error I cannot overcome

 

[Iconoclast]

I am not question the teaching from God's Word at all. I do strongly question man 's misinterpretation of the meaning and the willingness to choose man's opinions over clear scripture.

is it your position Ezekial 18 is wrong?

I did not say ezk was wrong....I said your understanding of it as a contradiction to Paul in Romans is a falsehood. You misunderstand both verses, you fail to grasp the implications of the fall and it's lasting effects on man.
Until you understand this accurately, you will not properly understand the gospel as it is linked by the Holy Spirit in Romans 5.

 

[Iconoclast]

yes, I believe the federal headship of Adam is a minor error compared to the most important point., It is difficult to measure to whom I am responding .

But let us try, Consider if "THE souls of MEN are the fallen elohyim. or "angels". We are the bad guys in the Bible narrative and that Humanity is the method of redemption

Consider, the expulsion, the necessity of the physical world, and the method of redemption , Purpose for Israel, even Scripture etc. if the statement is true

I know with your knowledge of Scripture you can think about this scenario i objectively in detail . You may find an possible error I cannot overcome

This is unbiblical nonsense. It is non christian mythology....this is all that is lefty when you depart from scripture.