IF You Hold Gospel is To ALL men: Interprete John 8:42-47!

[Robert Snow]

I don't have to, nor do I redefine anything. I just happen to pay attention to Scripture and know these things.

Thanks for the laugh, after reading many of your postings, I needed it! :laugh:

 

[JesusFan]

Here we go again, yet another word that Calvinism must redefine to make your doctrine work.

If I had to redefine words to make my theology work, that would be a big tip-off that there was something seriously wrong with it. I personally could never do this.

No, its that there are shades of meaning implied/intended in the Greek text that is hard to pick up and show in even best English versions

Its to be seen as Jesus implieing that the reason that Both pharisees and other jewish peoples he is addressing will die in their sins is due to them NOT being born of God, under satan, and they are 'blind" to Him and will indeed die ion their sins!

 

[JesusFan]

Sometimes this word implies "since." Perhaps since they didn't believe, they were not His Sheep whom He came to save?

Actually. there are places in Bible where "If' could.should be seen as being "since!"

When paul wrote "if you continue to be steadfast in the faith" He wrote it as being imoplied that since they would remain true, they would keep on growing in God!

 

[Allan]

Sometimes this word implies "since." Perhaps since they didn't believe, they were not His Sheep whom He came to save?

There is no quantifiable reason in the Greek for this word to be translated as 'since' and it is for THAT reason you will not find, or RARELY find it so.

 

[Winman]

No, its that there are shades of meaning implied/intended in the Greek text that is hard to pick up and show in even best English versions

Its to be seen as Jesus implieing that the reason that Both pharisees and other jewish peoples he is addressing will die in their sins is due to them NOT being born of God, under satan, and they are 'blind" to Him and will indeed die ion their sins!

Right, and only you Reformed/Calvinists know what the proper word should be. :laugh:

These types of arguments are silly if you believe what the scriptures say, that all scripture is by inspiration of God.

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If God had wanted to say since, he could easily have said since. This is similar to the argument when Calvinists say Jesus did not die for all men, but only the elect. Isn't God smart enough to say that? Couldn't God have simply said, "Jesus died for the elect only"? I am just an average guy, but I could easily figure out how to say Jesus died for the elect only without using misleading words like "all" or "every man" when I really meant "the elect only".

What is it? Do you think God is stupid and does not know how to properly express himself, or do you just think all non-Cals are idiots and are fooled by these ridiculous arguments? I get the impression that Ref/Cals believe both, they feel a great need to tell people "what God REALLY meant to say".

The word "since" occurs 70 times in the KJB. So, it isn't like the Holy Spirit doesn't know this word. If Jesus had wanted to say "since" in John 8:24, he could have easily done so. He used the word "if" because these men had choice. If they believed they would be saved, if they believed not they would die in their sins.

It seems Calvinists could come up with better arguments than this, the only persons convinced by these silly arguments are Calvinists themselves! So, who are the ones easily fooled?

 

[JesusFan]

Right, and only you Reformed/Calvinists know what the proper word should be. :laugh:

These types of arguments are silly if you believe what the scriptures say, that all scripture is by inspiration of God.

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If God had wanted to say since, he could easily have said since. This is similar to the argument when Calvinists say Jesus did not die for all men, but only the elect. Isn't God smart enough to say that? Couldn't God have simply said, "Jesus died for the elect only"? I am just an average guy, but I could easily figure out how to say Jesus died for the elect only without using misleading words like "all" or "every man" when I really meant "the elect only".

What is it? Do you think God is stupid and does not know how to properly express himself, or do you just think all non-Cals are idiots and are fooled by these ridiculous arguments? I get the impression that Ref/Cals believe both, they feel a great need to tell people "what God REALLY meant to say".

The word "since" occurs 70 times in the KJB. So, it isn't like the Holy Spirit doesn't know this word. If Jesus had wanted to say "since" in John 8:24, he could have easily done so. He used the word "if" because these men had choice. If they believed they would be saved, if they believed not they would die in their sins.

It seems Calvinists could come up with better arguments than this, the only persons convinced by these silly arguments are Calvinists themselves! So, who are the ones easily fooled?

I have NEVER accussed non cal Christians as being "dumb/stupid" etc though!

Just was stating that at times there are indeed passages/verses that have a part to them for interpretation that even good English versions"miss" to a degree, as just not possible to get full nuance from hebrew/Greek into English!

 

[Amy.G]

What is it? Do you think God is stupid and does not know how to properly express himself, or do you just think all non-Cals are idiots and are fooled by these ridiculous arguments? I get the impression that Ref/Cals believe both, they feel a great need to tell people "what God REALLY meant to say".

This reminds me of some guys who were on the board a few years ago and have since (pun intended) been banned for their heretical beliefs. They insisted that the word "eternal" did not mean eternal or forever or everlasting, but instead meant "for a certain period of time". They were never able to prove this but were very critical of others for their lack of education in not knowing this. Sound familiar?

 

[JesusFan]

This reminds me of some guys who were on the board a few years ago and have since (pun intended) been banned for their heretical beliefs. They insisted that the word "eternal" did not mean eternal or forever or everlasting, but instead meant "for a certain period of time". They were never able to prove this but were very critical of others for their lack of education in not knowing this. Sound familiar?

why so much rancor towards those of us who have NOT been involved here in :name calling/talking down to" etc?

 

[preacher4truth]

Actually. there are places in Bible where "If' could.should be seen as being "since!"

When paul wrote "if you continue to be steadfast in the faith" He wrote it as being imoplied that since they would remain true, they would keep on growing in God!

My point. :thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

The problem is that us non-Cals are uneducated. The first thing we need to be a true scholar is a good Calvinist dictionary. I found this one online.

All: The elect

Altar Call: An insult to God

Arminianism: Man centered theology

Assurance: hoping that you're elect

Augustine: The first church father.

Calvinism: The gospel

Call (effectual): to be irresistibly dragged

Call (general): God's justification to condemn the reprobate.

Catholicism: What Arminianism leads to.

Compatiblism: We are free to do whatever the Potter decrees us to do.

Contradiction: a mystery

Doctrines of Grace: Term that helps illustrate how God has given us Calvinists superior insight. Usage example: "I was an Arminian before being illuminated by the Doctrines of Grace."

Doris Day: Singer of truth

To Draw: To drag

Easy believism: The false idea that you can believe in Jesus Christ and be saved. Can a rotten corpse believe? Nope, neither can you.

Eisegesis: Any Arminian interpretation of a difficult passage (thanks Ben)

Emergent: Synonymous with "heretic", unless your name happens to be Mark Driscoll.

Esau: Someone God hated, not for any reason though.

Everyone: The elect

Exegesis: Any interpretation by James White, after all he's a Greek scholar.

faith (1): Something that the elect are zapped with after regeneration.

faith (2): A work that gives pride to Arminians.

Fatalism: Nothing to see here, move along.

Faux Pas: Coming to church with a Bible translation other than the ESV.

Finney, Charles: Wicked man who ravaged the evangelical movement. (Really)

To Foreknow: To decree or to love, absolutely nothing to do with knowing before.

Four Point Calvinist: An Arminian

Frankenstein: Cool story about a dead monster that got zapped with lightning and then became alive. Great parallel to the way we are regenerated.

Free Will: Something that can't exist because it would make God helpless if true.

Glory: Praise we give to God for anything wicked that has ever happened (except for the birth of Charles Finney).

God's secret will: To save a few and reprobate the rest (secret to Arminians but not to us)

God's revealed will: a mystery

Gospel of John: anything by John Piper

Hebrews: Skip this book and read the Gospel of John instead.

Hyper-Calvinists: Calvinists who care more about consistency than looking good.

Infralapsarianism: See "Four Point Calvinist".

Infant damnation: Something that brings God glory.

James: Book that Luther wanted thrown out of the canon.

Jesus Loves Me, This I Know: Misleading children's song.

Jesus Loves the Little Children: Another terrible song, obviously written by someone who didn't take the time to do a proper exegesis of scripture.

John 3:16: Enigmatic verse. One must be a scholar to properly understand this passage. James White's unbiased insights are recommended.

Kosmos: Greek word that means "elect".

The Living Bible: I hope you're joking.

Missions: A complete waste of time, see "altar call" for more info.

Mystery: The way God decrees sin but is not responsible for it.

NIV: Word for thought translation is heresy.

Paul: Author of Romans 9

Pelagian: Name to call Arminians, extra points if they don't know what it means.

Polemic Atheist: Another name to call Arminians, good diversionary tactic when appealing to John Owen doesn't work.

Preaching the Gospel: Something God commands, but the reason why is a mystery.

Pride: Something that works-based Arminians have in abundance, but we Calvinists don't after being chosen by God.

Regeneration: See "Frankenstein".

Reprobate: Those whom God justly damns to maximize His glory.

Rick Warren: worthless author, read something by John Gill instead.

The Road to Rome: Where synergism always leads to.

Robot: Don't say that word!

Servetus: A heretic who got what he deserved.

Shipwreck: Misleading term, because the "ship" wasn't really floating in the first place.

Sovereignty: meticulous micromanagement

Supralapsarianism: God orchestrated the fall for His glory, the central truth of scripture.

Wesley, John: A false apostle of free will (not kidding)

Whitefield, George: Wesley's superior

Whosoever: The elect

World: The elect

We need to add the word "if" to this now.

If: Since

 

[preacher4truth]

There is no quantifiable reason in the Greek for this word to be translated as 'since' and it is for THAT reason you will not find, or RARELY find it so.

You just happen to be incorrect. It doesn't have to be from the Greek, but in the context.

In other words it (if) implies "since" since it also means "forasmuch" which is in the Greek definition of "if." Thus, if is used also as, not always calling into question, but supporting the flow of thought as "forasmuch." Colossians 3:1, for instance.

It's not that hard, really.

- Peace

 

[JesusFan]

The problem is that us non-Cals are uneducated. The first thing we need to be a true scholar is a good Calvinist dictionary. I found this one online.



We need to add the word "if" to this now.

If: Since

Just might to add to the Arms lexicon though term "Fruit of the Holy Spirit"

at least for those who seem to become so angry at cals for no good reason!
thanks!

 

[Winman]

Just might to add to the Arms lexicon though term "Fruit of the Holy Spirit"

at least for those who seem to become so angry at cals for no good reason!
thanks!

It was decreed that we would be angry at Calvinists, didn't you know that?

 

[JesusFan]

It was decreed that we would be angry at Calvinists, didn't you know that?

Nice!

Now if we can just get for you the "laughter by the Holy Ghost!"

 

[Winman]

Nice!

Now if we can just get for you the "laughter by the Holy Ghost!"

If it is decreed, it will surely come to pass.

Edit- Oops! I almost forgot: SINCE it is decreed, it will surely come to pass.

I know those two statements mean exactly the same thing, because I have now been taught the proper meaning of the word "if".

 

[JesusFan]

If it is decreed, it will surely come to pass.

Edit- Oops! I almost forgot: SINCE it is decreed, it will surely come to pass.

I know those two statements mean exactly the same thing, because I have now been taught the proper meaning of the word "if".

Just curious, was sarcasim one of the fruits of the HS My Bible forgot to include in it?

 

[preacher4truth]

Just curious, was sarcasim one of the fruits of the HS My Bible forgot to include in it?

:thumbsup:

Winman is angry, and will stay angry. :laugh:

That, and he doesn't know the Greek meaning of "if" as in, it means, "forasmuch."

Hey Winman, go look up the definition of if in the Greek, and study the context leading to Colossians 3:1 and see how "if" there could read "forasmuch" or "since." No need to get twisted as is your norm, just go look for yourself instead of practicing mocking and cynicism, and actually have something to back it up that is tangible.

I'll give you a hint: Strongs G1487; "ei." :wavey:

Some versions even render it this way, correctly.

 

[webdog]

Just curious, was sarcasim one of the fruits of the HS My Bible forgot to include in it?

No it's in there. Note Elijah's use of it on the priests of baal

 

[Winman]

Just curious, was sarcasim one of the fruits of the HS My Bible forgot to include in it?

Did you ever read what Elijah said to the prophets of Baal?

1 Kngs 18:26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

There is a place for sarcasm, even for Christians. When you are dealing with people who know they are in error, but persist to insist they are correct, a little sarcasm is good.
You can argue all day (and I'm sure you will) that the word "if" in John 8:24 means "since", doesn't make it so.

 

[webdog]

Sarcastic minds think alike.