I'm a Calvinist. Change My Mind.

[JohnDeereFan]

His kid is just carrying on the family tradition (bad theology), only the kid is much worse.

But at least Hank, Jr is talented at his craft and was a very good artist until he became a parody of himself.

Seriously, just check out his albums in the period right after his accident through about 1984 (just be sure to ignore all the stupid novelty songs). His cover of Greg Allman's "Come and Go Blues", as well as his cover of Clapton's "Promises" were fantastic. "Habits Old And New" was a great album.

 

[thatbrian]

But at least Hank, Jr is talented at his craft and was a very good artist until he became a parody of himself.

Seriously, just check out his albums in the period right after his accident through about 1984 (just be sure to ignore all the stupid novelty songs). His cover of Greg Allman's "Come and Go Blues", as well as his album, "Habits Old And New" were fantastic.

I didn't mean to insult Jr. He's a far better artist than Andy is a preacher.

The song came to mind because of the father/son dynamic we were discussing.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I didn't mean to insult Jr. He's a far better artist than Andy is a preacher.

The song came to mind because of the father/son dynamic we were discussing.

I know.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

He is not Reformed in his soteriology, which makes all else he teaches errant.

This makes me think that he is right!

 

[JohnDeereFan]

This makes me think that he is right!

Makes me think he needs to repent.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Makes me think he needs to repent.

of what exactly?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Are only non-Cals on your ignore list? If so, I don't think you will get much of an exercise.

Besides only God can change someone's heart, so why would anyone try?
.

I’ve got a cogent answer for you, if I’m going to hell the last thing I’d want is this numbscull following me there for eternity. This guys a provocateur.

 

[thatbrian]

of what exactly?

His man-centered view of God's creation.

 

[Yeshua1]

His man-centered view of God's creation.

Can God change you to not being one, if He so choosed?

 

[rockytopva]

I believe in the seven churches as ages / congregations...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

And we are living in time referred to as the, "Fullness of the Gentiles"

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. - Luke 21:24

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. - Romans 11:25

John Calvin doctrine is Sardisean doctrine. Christian, yes.... But universal to the church, no. The Lord also has taken issue with the Sardisean doctrine by saying...

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. - Revelation 3

I believe the Lord here refers to John Calvin Calvinism... Points to remember....

1. You can have your eternal security if you don't defile your garments
2. If you overcome you will be clothed in white raiment.

"He that overcometh." Therefore....

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. - Matthew 10:22
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Matthew 24:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Mark 13:13

 

[Rhetorician]

Does God impute damning sin to people before they actually sin?

Dear Brother BF,

Happy New Year to you and yours.

So, may I surmise that you either do not know of, or understand the doctrine of imputation of righteousness? Or neither do you know of, or understand the doctrine of Federal Headship?

And I will be satisfied with your answers. (So I do not want to make any pejorative pronouncements on any good brother such as yourself.)

But the assertion made above tends to make me think that someone who might be a Free Will / General Baptist might make. Now that is entirely OK, but I really did not know that we had such on the BB. So I am glad I stumbled along and found your post.

We must do this again sometime it has really been a blast and caused those old cob webs in the brain to need a fresh cleaning indeed.

I am here to love and serve you if I can?!

rd

 

[BobRyan]

thatbrian said: ↑
You haven't changed my mind, @BobRyan, but thanks for trying.

1. You have free will -- I cannot "change your mind".
2. I have not started yet - that was just an introductory question/proposal

When I show that Calvinism does not survive the sola scriptura test of scripture -- I usually start off like this -- showing the Arminian Gospel that is presented in the Bible


Rev 3

20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.


Arminian “invitation model”
Rev 3 “I STAND at the door and knock” these alone without Christ “on the inside” must choose to “open the door” and then “I will come in”.
2 Cor 5 “We BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God”
Rom 11:13-15 “I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.”
John 1:11 “He came to His OWN – and His OWN received Him not”
Isaiah 5:4 ““What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?”
Rom 10:9 “9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


Matt 23
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Luke 7
28 When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John.
29 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.



There is no “Christless salvation” condition.
The Gospel presents salvation as

“Christ IN you the hope of glory” Col 1:27
“no longer I who lives but Christ who lives IN Me” Gal 2:20-21

Rom
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


God so Loved the WORLD -- yes "really".
John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD" not just the FEW of Matthew 7
2 Peter 3 "God is not willing that ANY should perish" -- not just the FEW of Matt 7
1 John 2:2 "Jesus is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" not just the FEW of Matt 7.
1 Tim 2: "3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 John 4: "14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world".

The objective unbiased Bible student can see from the above - that Calvinism does not survive the test of scripture
The ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9 that we find in the Bible - is perfectly proclaimed in Arminian doctrine

In Calvinism these are all just so many texts "to be fixed"

Actually, Bob, the only way in which you could change my mind would be if I had Libertarian Free Will, which you would claim I do.

As I said in the post above...again.

1. You have free will -- I cannot "change your mind".

The alternative to that - which is that someone is causing you to reject the Bible texts that disprove Calvinism - would still mean I cannot change your mind.. unless of course "I" was the one controlling your will.. which of course.. I am not.

2. In the mean time - God is apparently causing me to continue posting the Bible texts that refute Calvinism...

I don't have all day. I could get hit by the very bus that Arminians are always worried about people getting hit by.

The rest of your post is far, far too long. Please post single-point replies, or this gets too difficult.

Fine - let's take just the first point raised in the post above..

Arminian “invitation model”
Rev 3 “I STAND at the door and knock” these alone without Christ “on the inside” must choose to “open the door” and then “I will come in”.
2 Cor 5 “We BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God”
Rom 11:13-15 “I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.”
John 1:11 “He came to His OWN – and His OWN received Him not”
Isaiah 5:4 ““What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?”
Rom 10:9 “9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


Matt 23
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Luke 7
28 When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John.
29 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

 

[thatbrian]

As I said in the post above...again.

1. You have free will -- I cannot "change your mind".

The alternative to that - which is that someone is causing you to reject the Bible texts that disprove Calvinism - would still mean I cannot change your mind.. unless of course "I" was the one controlling your will.. which of course.. I am not.

2. In the mean time - God is apparently causing me to continue posting the Bible texts that refute Calvinism...





Fine - let's take just the first point raised in the post above..

Arminian “invitation model”
Rev 3 “I STAND at the door and knock” these alone without Christ “on the inside” must choose to “open the door” and then “I will come in”.
2 Cor 5 “We BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God”
Rom 11:13-15 “I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.”
John 1:11 “He came to His OWN – and His OWN received Him not”
Isaiah 5:4 ““What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?”
Rom 10:9 “9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


Matt 23
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Luke 7
28 When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John.
29 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

How does this "invitation" model work for people who were born, lived and died without ever hearing the name of Jesus?

 

[BobRyan]

How does this "invitation" model work for people who were born, lived and died without ever hearing the name of Jesus?

Romans 10 says nature speaks the Gospel to everyone.

Romans 2:13-16 says even the gentiles with no access to the Bible at all - will show in some cases the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit -- writing God's Law on the heart and in the judgment they are accounted as the Children of God -

And it is also true that Christians WITH access to the Bible - will in some cases show that they are born again - and under the New Covenant. As Christ points out in Matt 7 -- that would be "the FEW"

John 16 says that instead of the Holy Spirit "just convicting Christians" -- He "convicts the WORLD" of sin and righteousness and judgment.

God is not limited by Calvinism.

 

[thatbrian]

Romans 10 says nature speaks the Gospel to everyone.

And what does it say?

Romans 2:13-16 says even the gentiles with no access to the Bible at all - will show in some cases the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit -- writing God's Law on the heart and in the judgment they are accounted as the Children of God -

Does God save apart from His Word? Are missionaries a waste of time?

John 16 says that instead of the Holy Spirit "just convicting Christians" -- He "convicts the WORLD" of sin and righteousness and judgment.

Is conviction of sin salvific?

God is not limited by Calvinism.

He is limited to His word, which is where the truths of His sovereignty in election come from.

What do these texts mean, Bob?

". . .who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:13)

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. (Romans 9:14-16)​

 

[TCassidy]

you my friend are the one mistaken!

Nope. 1st Cor 15 is true. Every word.

It is you who holds on to your complete misunderstanding of John chapter 13, which is an account of the Passover Meal, and refusal to accept the account in Luke 22, which clearly shows (as the Greek says) that Judas was part of that Lord's Supper.

Wrong again. I know that John 13 is an account of the Passover Sedar. After which Judas was identified as the traitor by the dipping of the sop, after which he immediately left, then the Lord's Supper was initiated, just like the bible says. Luke does not contradict John. Luke does not say Judas didn't leave immediately. He left and was not present for the initiation of the Lord's Supper.

Likewise, it is you who will hang on to one passage in First Corinthians, and assume that it is the be-all-and-end-all on salvation!

I believe 1st Corinthians 15 states the Gospel. I am not sure why you think it is wrong or incomplete, but it is, according to Paul and the Holy Spirit, the Gospel.

You need to let the WHOLE of Scripture speak to you, and not only pick out that which suites your fancy!

I do. All of it. Including John, Luke, and Paul.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Since free-will is a dominate theme in this discussion, consider the following:

Jhn 8:41-44 KJV - 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

"Ye do the deeds of your father.": "Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.".

These, children of he devil, did not have free-will.

 

[BobRyan]

thatbrian said: ↑
How does this "invitation" model work for people who were born, lived and died without ever hearing the name of Jesus?

Romans 10 says nature speaks the Gospel to everyone.

Romans 2:13-16 says even the gentiles with no access to the Bible at all - will show in some cases the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit -- writing God's Law on the heart and in the judgment they are accounted as the Children of God -

And it is also true that Christians WITH access to the Bible - will in some cases show that they are born again - and under the New Covenant. As Christ points out in Matt 7 -- that would be "the FEW"

John 16 says that instead of the Holy Spirit "just convicting Christians" -- He "convicts the WORLD" of sin and righteousness and judgment.

God is not limited by Calvinism.

And what does it say?

Romans 10 says Nature itself is preaching the Gospel.

Rom 10
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”​

Quotes Ps 19:1-5
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

is word, which is where the truths of His sovereignty in election come from.

Your argument is "with the text" -- read what was just quoted from Romans 10

Does God save apart from His Word? Are missionaries a waste of time?

God is not limited to missionaries nor can Calvinism limit God -- His Word remains true.

There is no such thing as "no Calvinist was sent so God could save no one"
There is no such thing as "no Christian was sent so God could save no one".

We cooperate with God - but we are "not God" nor is God limited by us. He is the great evangelist "I will draw ALL MANKIND unto ME" John 12:32

The missionary that says "I don't want to go to that area and evangelize unless God is helpless without me" is in the wrong business.

The Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

===============================

Which brings us back to my answer to your question...



Romans 10 says nature speaks the Gospel to everyone.

Romans 2:13-16 says even the gentiles with no access to the Bible at all - will show in some cases the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit -- writing God's Law on the heart and in the judgment they are accounted as the Children of God -

And it is also true that Christians WITH access to the Bible - will in some cases show that they are born again - and under the New Covenant. As Christ points out in Matt 7 -- that would be "the FEW"

John 16 says that instead of the Holy Spirit "just convicting Christians" -- He "convicts the WORLD" of sin and righteousness and judgment.

God is not limited by Calvinism.

 

[BobRyan]

Since free-will is a dominate theme in this discussion, consider the following:

Jhn 8:41-44 KJV - 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

"Ye do the deeds of your father.": "Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.".

These, children of he devil, did not have free-will.

Free will is promised even by Calvinist standards -- if you look at John 6.

Even Calvinism admits that the "Drawing of God" enables all the choice to accept the Gospel - that depravity disables.

And John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL mankind unto me" - solves that problem resulting in the Arminian type Gospel that we find in scripture.

Your point that man who refuses that drawing and rejects the Gospel is enslaved to sin - is not being disputed.

 

[thatbrian]

Since free-will is a dominate theme in this discussion, consider the following:

Jhn 8:41-44 KJV - 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

"Ye do the deeds of your father.": "Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.".

These, children of he devil, did not have free-will.

Thanks. Great addition to the thread.