In Christ, Eph 1:4: A question for Reformed Baptists

[examiningcalvinism]

Reformed Believer

Reformed Believer: Grace and peace to you too. (In that event, I cannot wait to hear Allan's perspective). A Calvinist Non-Calvinist is a rare breed. :laugh: Endangered species...

 

[examiningcalvinism]

James

James,

I've copied this post over into the other thread.

We are chosen in Christ. (yes)
We are chosen to be saved (no)

The only reason why I say "no" is because when you take half of the truth, and make that half of the truth, the whole truth, it no longer becomes the truth. Let me elaborate....

---We are chosen in Christ to be made holy---- Eph 1:4

God's Election is to take those who are sealed in Christ (Eph 1:13) and to make them holy, and to conform them to the image of His Son. (Romans 8:29) These who are in Christ, were foreknown in Christ, and hence predestined for all that God the Father has in store for them. This is why I believe that Paul went to such great pains to say what you have in Christ, mentioning it 11 times in the first 13 verse of Ephesians chapter 1. It's not about what you had in yourself, or what you had in the Father, but about what you have in Christ. The apostle Paul is so consistent with this. Check 2nd Timothy 1:9. Same thing.

People are getting the idea that Election is that when God sought a place for His grace, He found US. But that's not the whole truth. When you take the US and cut it off from the "in Him" then you undermine the basis of Election. Rather, speaking figuratively, when God sought a place for His grace, He found His Son, and all who become enjoined to His Body as "one spirit" (1Cor 6:16-17), share in His grace.

To summarize: On the basis of our position in His Son, we have the privilege of adoption in the Father as a child of God.

Some will say that I am splitting hairs. Ok, allow me to give you a quote from John MacArthur, and I'll show you the impact of lopping off "in Christ" at Eph 1:4 has on Election:

MacArthur, writes: “I’m a Christian today because before the foundation of the world from all eternity past, God chose to set His love on John MacArthur and to give him the faith to believe at the moment that God wanted him to believe. He chose us.” (Understanding Election, emphasis mine)

MacArthur adds: “We are chosen unto salvation. We are chosen to belong to Him. When you look at your salvation, then thank God. Thank God! Because you are a Christian because He chose you. I don’t understand the mystery of that. That’s just what the word of God teaches. That is the most humbling doctrine in all of Scripture. I take no credit, not even credit for my faith. It all came from Him. He chose me. He selected people to be made holy in order to be with Him forever. Why he selected me, I will never know. I’m no better than anyone else. I’m worse than many. But He chose me.” (Understanding Election, emphasis mine)

MacArthur asks: “To whom do you owe your salvation? You owe it to the God who chose you. You owe it to the God who predestined you. You owe it to the God who redeemed you, the God who forgave you, the God who wanted you to be His own because He wanted you to be His own. It doesn’t give any other reason, even though we are so unworthy, so unworthy.” (Understanding Election, emphasis mine)

What's missing?

 

[examiningcalvinism]

in addition to the above

MAcArthur's speaks powerful words in that quote, but without Christ in that description, it speaks to me as an "in the Father" election. Of course, MacArthur has spoken much about being chosen in Christ, but if it is nothing more than being chosen "to be" in Christ, then its just a secondary matter, or so it seems to me. Question: Is the basis for our election in Christ, or is the basis for our election "to become" in Christ? I think that that may summarize the difference in the two views. Feedback is welcome.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello examiningcalvinism,

Sorry for taking so long. I'm doing work at the same time. But...its work for myself.

I've copied this post over into the other thread.

We are chosen in Christ. (yes)
We are chosen to be saved (no)

The only reason why I say "no" is because when you take half of the truth, and make that half of the truth, the whole truth, it no longer becomes the truth. Let me elaborate....

Not added to the truth....Therefore if any man be in Christ, -------->>>>(((((he is a new creature)))))))): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. So..as it turns out "in Christ" does mean to be saved. right? That would be a yes.

---We are chosen in Christ to be made holy---- Eph 1:4

What does holy mean? Check out verse 1 for the answer.

God's Election is to take those who are sealed in Christ (Eph 1:13) and to make them holy, and to conform them to the image of His Son.

Yes...Only the elect are sealed...holy/saint...and changed into His image.

(Romans 8:29) These who are in Christ, were foreknown in Christ, and hence predestined for all that God the Father has in store for them.

Foreknowing means more then just knowing about someone. God foreknow us, in that He chose us.

This is why I believe that Paul went to such great pains to say what you have in Christ, mentioning it 11 times in the first 13 verse of Ephesians chapter 1.

1st, I have shown that you misquoted a few of those. But that is beside the point. Your whole doctrine is based on this one phrase. You always quote it, as if it changes something. This is only a phrase that says we are saved. You know this, and you admited it. But maybe if we go to other passage you will see.

Romans 8

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

NOTE:>>>In Christ...are saved. After the Spirit in this context are saved. After the flesh are the lost.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

NOTE:>>>>"of the Spirit..are saved. In Christ...are saved.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

NOTE:>>>>After the Spirit..are saved people. After the flesh in the verse are the lost.

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Please read the rest of the chapter.

Next...and I know you do not like this one, but the fact is...election is to salvation.

2 Thess 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom. 11:7..."What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election (elect) hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded"

Now read this to get the full picture...

Isaiah 43

1But now thus saith Jehovah that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel: Fear not, for I have redeemed thee; I have called thee by thy name, thou art mine. 2When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned, neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

Great passage that I'm sure you have read many times. But most stop reading here and miss the blessing below.

3For I am Jehovah thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour; I have given Egypt as thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in thy stead.

Did you read that? God is giving up other people as a ransom for His people. Wow!!
You understand what this means? He will do anything for the ones He loves. But wait..there's more..

4Since thou hast been precious in my sight, and honorable, and I have loved thee; therefore will I give men in thy stead, and peoples instead of thy life.

Will give other men in thy stead!! WOW!! You understand this means death..right?

Now..Please notice that the "fear not" below is to His people...

5Fear not; for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; 6I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back; bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the end of the earth; 7every one that is called by my name, and whom I have created for my glory, whom I have formed, yea, whom I have made. 8Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. 9Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the peoples be assembled: who among them can declare this, and show us former things? let them bring their witnesses, that they may be justified; or let them hear, and say, It is truth.

1st God gathers His people from all over the earth. Then God gathers all peoples before them. Why? Well...God wanted the other people to witness something. God wanted them to see it with thir own eyes...to hear it with thier own ears. What? Well..it tells us in the next verse.

10Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Chosen not because God looked and learned. We...His people are chosen that they MAY KNOW. They are chosen to BELIEVE. They are chosen that they may UNDERSTAND their need for salvation.

11I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour. 12I have declared, and I have saved, and I have showed; and there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and I am God.

People are getting the idea that Election is that when God sought a place for His grace, He found US. But that's not the whole truth. When you take the US and cut it off from the "in Him" then you undermine the basis of Election. Rather, speaking figuratively, when God sought a place for His grace, He found His Son, and all who become enjoined to His Body as "one spirit" (1Cor 6:16-17), share in His grace.

That is just pushing your phrase some more. Sorry...it changes nothing. Election is by God..TO salvation. In Christ means saved....so chosen in Christ is the same as saying choosen for salvation. Other wise...the chosing is not needed. This is like saying God only choses you....after you choose Him. Bad doctrine.


I'm not talk about other writer unless I have read them. Most of the time others are taken out of context.

 

[Allan]

Well I enjoyed the debate Richard. Wait, was there a debate? :laugh: I think you spent most of your time telling us what White or Calvin or maybe Sproul may have writen, and what you believe. We already know what you believe. You might surprise me and be the best calvinist non-calvinist out there..... but I think that designation is for Allan. Grace and peace. I'm turning this over to James..... if he ever gets done with his response to you. Watch out....... he has been typing a reply for a while now. :jesus:

Sure Reformed bring me back into this discussion. :tongue3:
However, I'm about to enter this discussion but not yet... I'm still watching for him to answer a couple of previous post.

However, I thought I could be aggressively accertive - But Wow!

 

[examiningcalvinism]

James

James,

Let’s go through each point. It’s past 2:00am here and my eyes are closing. You guys must be on the West coast, or are just night owls

My hope is that tomorrow we can discuss this, one point at a time, rather than exhanging thesis'

You wrote: “So..as it turns out ‘in Christ’ does mean to be saved. right? That would be a yes”

No, that’s not right. If you are sealed in Christ, you are saved period, without the “to be.” Maybe that’s a point that we need to develop further. When you take “chosen in Christ” and make it “chosen to be in Christ,” then isn’t it inevitable that you have established a superior election which results in an election “to be” in Christ? I apologize if you have already answered this question in the affirmative, but for clarity sake, Do you believe that God eternally chose you in Himself, with the result that He chose you to be in Christ?

If a man is sealed in Christ, he is saved, regenerated, born again, and has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and has a new heart and a new spirit. (2 Cor 5:17; Ezek 36:26) From what I’ve read from you, I believe that we are in agreement on this point. However, the difference appears to fall along the lines of WHEN a person becomes “sealed” in Christ, as per Ephesians 1:13. Is it after believing in the Gospel, or is it before one listens and believes in the Gospel.

The only "to be" that I've agreed to is that God the Father has chosen us in union with His Son in order "to be" in the Father.

You wrote: “only the elect are sealed.”

Having said that, you might as well have taken your nails and scratched them across the chalk board. Knowing that we are elect in Christ (Eph 1:4), when you dangle the word “elect” without Christ attached to it, an alarm goes off in my head. Perhaps you meant to say that “only the elect [in Christ] are sealed [in Christ],” but even that is unworkable with Ephesians 1:13.

You wrote: “Foreknowing means more then just knowing about someone. God foreknow us, in that He chose us.”

You say that He foreknew that He chose us, and I say that He foreknew us in Christ. You’ll need to keep this distinction in mind as we develop these points, and see which point passes with flying colors.

We can address Romans 8, 2 Thess 2:13-14 and Romans 11:7. I’ve already written papers on them so I’ve familiar with the texts.

You wrote: “Election is by God..TO salvation. In Christ means saved....so chosen in Christ is the same as saying chosen for salvation.”

Let’s cite the verse: “just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.” Evaluating your words, Election is indeed by God, in Christ, for holiness. That answers the “who”, the “what” and the “for.”

You wrote: “This is like saying God only choses you....after you choose Him. Bad doctrine.”

Yeah, no kidding. That’s horrible doctrine. Let’s see if we can fix that. God has eternally chosen us in Christ for holiness (and you can add salvation and eternal life to that), and we become sealed in Christ after believing in the Gospel. Saying that God chose you because you chose God, oversimplifies the matter and introduces error.

To close the night, let me cite two quotes from Adrian Rogers, with whom I find agreement:

Adrian Rogers explains: “How do you get into the family of God? You are spiritually born into the family of God. You are legally adopted into the family of God. Now when you are born in to God’s family, that’s the new birth. That deals with your position in Christ. When you are adopted, that deals with your privilege in Christ, and in Christ, we have both birth and adoption and we are predestined to this adoption. Therefore, we are fully accepted.” (What We Have in the Lord Jesus, Ephesians 1:1-12, Love Worth Finding Ministries, 1/18/95W)

Adrian Rogers explains: “What is Predestination? Predestination is not God saying from eternity that one man’s going to heaven and another man is going to hell. Predestination deals primarily with what God intends to do for those who trust Him and what God will do for saved people. Predestination teaches me on the authority of God that when I’ve trusted Christ as my personal Savior and Lord, I will be like Jesus Christ.” (What We Have in the Lord Jesus, Ephesians 1:1-12, Love Worth Finding Ministries, 1/18/95W, emphasis mine)

(If you adopt a child, then you have adopted them into your family. They take on your own last name. They are no longer outside of your family, calling you “Sir” or “Mr.” Therefore, when we receive the spirit of adoption as sons, we cry out, “Abba! Father!” (Romans 8:15) Our position in Christ, is the basis for our adoption in the Father as the children of God. That is the eternal plan of God in Christ.)

 

[GordonSlocum]

2 Thes 2: 9. {that is,} the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

( A decision was made and they rejected the truth. It is on the basis of “not receiving the truth” that “deluding influence” is sent by God, next verse. They have already made a choice to reject or not believe and it follows that they will continue. Again in verse 12 Paul restated the basis for the sending of the deluding influence, their unbelief. The reverse is true of the ones that freely believe. They are chosen for salvation on the basis of or through the work of the Spirit and man’s faith. It takes both. The Spirit sanctifies those that have faith in the truth. Notice verse 14. It further confirms that calling is through the gospel. All are called but few are chosen. The chosen are the ones that believe freely. Chosen is a term that is only applicable to the ones who believe. They are chosen because they believe not believe because they are chosen. How is one chosen? Two things in verse 13: (1) Sanctification by the Spirit and (2) faith in the truth. One by itself is not sufficient or 2 by itself is not sufficient either. But, the spirit will do the sanctifying if a person freely believes “has faith in the truth”. )


11. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12. in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
13. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
14. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word {of mouth} or by letter from us.
16. Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,
17. comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

For me it is simple. All the language surrounding the two groups is on the basis of belief or un-belief. Everything in these verses is predicated on this one thing.

 

[Allan]

2 Thes 2: 9. {that is,} the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

( A decision was made and they rejected the truth. It is on the basis of “not receiving the truth” that “deluding influence” is sent by God, next verse. They have already made a choice to reject or not believe and it follows that they will continue. Again in verse 12 Paul restated the basis for the sending of the deluding influence, their unbelief. The reverse is true of the ones that freely believe. They are chosen for salvation on the basis of or through the work of the Spirit and man’s faith. It takes both. The Spirit sanctifies those that have faith in the truth. Notice verse 14. It further confirms that calling is through the gospel. All are called but few are chosen. The chosen are the ones that believe freely. Chosen is a term that is only applicable to the ones who believe. They are chosen because they believe not believe because they are chosen. How is one chosen? Two things in verse 13: (1) Sanctification by the Spirit and (2) faith in the truth. One by itself is not sufficient or 2 by itself is not sufficient either. But, the spirit will do the sanctifying if a person freely believes “has faith in the truth”. )


11. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12. in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
13. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
14. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word {of mouth} or by letter from us.
16. Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,
17. comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

For me it is simple. All the language surrounding the two groups is on the basis of belief or un-belief. Everything in these verses is predicated on this one thing.

You beat me to the punch Gordon. I noted to that James highlighted only a portion of that verse concerning "...to salvation...' (which no one disagrees with) but neglected to continue hightlighting that which state how that choice TO salvation was established... THROUGH the cleanings of the Spirit and Belief in the Word. We are 'chosen' IN CHRIST to salvation THROUGH...the clensing of the Spirit...and belief in the Word.

The whole IN CHRIST thing I believe has taken on a life of it own in this thread.
This passage is specific that those chosen ARE in Christ - But not by the Calvinistic election definition of God choosing some and passing over others (or reprobation which ever floats the boat) but God knew us In Chrst because of the work He would do towards us and our belief towards Him. No man will seek out God, unless God first seek out man. Or as scripture states it: no man comes unto me unless the Father draw him.

But again even more simply put:
We are chosen To salvation by the means of the Spirit and faith.

 

[Allan]

In other words, God has chosen us, not to become in Christ, but rather that God has chosen us in union with Christ, and that it is this union, in which we have become "one spirit" with God (1st Corinthians 6:16-17), in which we have become enjoined to His body, that we were foreknown in Him. (Romans 8:29) This is not foreknowledge of faith. This is foreknowledge of a people, that is, a people in Christ, by grace through faith. These who are "chosen in Christ" are both individually foreknown in Christ, as well as corporately predestined, by the Father, to receive all that He has sovereignly placed in His Son, as stated in Ephesians chapter 1, and in Romans chapter 8, which is 1) the believer's conformity into the image of Christ, 2) the Christian Calling for unique purpose in the body of Christ for the edification of the Body and for the evangelization of the lost, and 3) justification and glorification.

Ok, this is pretty much - gobboldy gook to me.

I hold to the "IN CHRIST" bit, but there are some misguided notions in here.

1. Scriptures state infatically that we are "IN" Christ and not "IN union" with Christ. One is speaking of salvation of whom we have received it, and the other places us at 'one with Christ" or "in Union with Christ" BEFORE salvation occurs. This is absolutely impossible. You have taken Mr. Rogers quote beyond it's intended meaning to support what he never espoused. We were never in union with God but sinners under His wrath.

2. It is not a foreknowledge of 'a people' - There is NO verse that is discriptive in such a way. Jesus Knows His sheep and calls them by NAME. The word 'them' in that verse in conjuction with 'name' tells us that without question He know all the individuals who are his and not some set/subset grouping. Just for 1 example. I have more. If you are speaking of Him knowing those of His church as a whole then please say so.

3. You have divided youself (at least in your OP) of God choosing a people to God forknowing individuals... Maybe you need to clarify better. Be careful also in using 'individual' and 'corporate' as these can become mistconstrued easily. For if we are corporately predestined then you lose all personal responsiblity toward you own holy and righteous walk as it is based on the whole corporate group to be holy. So mush for rewards and discipline. Johnny did bad EVERYONE gets punished.

that is enough for now, I guess. You are doing pretty good fielding comment though as they come in rapid fire succession. :laugh: I would agree however it is best to deal with James on a point for point issue. Me and Him have done a full page or two responce to just one post and there will be 3 to 4 of them... Isn't that right James. We can get very long winded if we let ourselves and pages are no obsticle when multiple posting. Keep the faith James. :thumbs:

 

[GordonSlocum]

I think it was Dr. Elmer Towns that put me onto the "in Christ" understanding.

In the end as I understand it there are these basis issues between the Calvinist and non-Calvinist ( Some would say different flavors of Arminianism)

(1) The issue of weather or not God arbitrarily pick John and did not Pick Jane.

(2) This issue becomes severely contradictory in light of the desire of God. If God is not willing that any perish and that all come to repentance and then picks John and not Jane too there is a serious problem.

(3) Number 1 being based upon a false view that the depravity of man is of such nature that mankind can not respond to facts about who he is and what the consequences are. It simply miss uses the term "dead in trespasses and sins" not correctly applying it as separation vs. their re-rational concept of dead. Remembering that Adam and Eve actually talked to God in this state of being "dead in their sins and trespasses". Adam and Eve carried on a conversation with God.

(4) The false teaching that regeneration or resurrection from the dead of the deadness of man spiritually where by man is then infused with faith and thus enabled to believe is more than ridicules and non-scriptural. Believing faith is no where clearly, emphatically, and basically remotely taught in Scripture as being a special gift that is infused into a person after they are raised from the dead by regeneration whereby they will not respond to an arbitrary picking of God that they can not refuse or reject.

(5) God's holiness is at stake there in my thinking. If God desires all to be saved and has the power to do just that and if Calvinism's false position were true then God would be lying and His holiness breached. The only for God's desire and His Holiness to be consistent with His Sovereignty and Purpose is to understand that all men do have an equal opportunity in life to respond to The Good News.

(6) This is where the Absolute Knowledge of God comes in. In that Election is based upon Foreknowledge is undisputable. The reasonable person will except the clear definition of the word and stop trying to manipulate it to mean otherwise. Foreknowledge covers all angles. When dealing with mankind it is personal and factual that is an undisputed fact even though some will try to twist it two be one or the other. Mankind is God's creation and any reference to man is personal and reference to salvation is both personal and factual.

(7) The In Christ statements by Paul in Eph 1 and 2 are clinchers against the Calvinist doctrine as well. Our calling / Election is in Christ, not before or apart from Christ. To be in Christ is to be Elect, Chosen, etc. To be outside Christ prior to salvation is just separated for God by our trespasses and sins.

(8) In the mind of God, who has Absolute Knowledge, those whom He foresees / foreknows are appointed to heaven, Elected in Christ, etc. God can say this and He alone because He alone has Absolute Knowledge. All Prophecy is predicated on God’s Absolute Knowledge. If we take God’s ability away form Him and force Him to be Calvinist then His Holiness and Absolute Knowledge is damaged and God ceases to be God.

(9) Over and over again Jesus refers to faith as "their" "your" "his" faith. There is only one place the word faith is used as a Gift and it is in I Cor 12 and the gift there is call a spiritual gift of faith that is understood in context as given to only some of the body as God wills. No where is believing faith clearly, emphatically, stated as a special infused gift. The fact that man is in the image of God means that man posses this fundamental ability on the basis that he is in the image of God. If God's image is dead as they want you to believe then we cease to live at all. That is not the case. The faith you exercise all day long is the same capability needed to believe in Christ. Your allegiance changes and you stop looking in faith to you and others and transfer it to Grace, the Work of God, Christ.

 

[Allan]

(2) This issue becomes severely contradictory in light of the desire of God. If God is not willing that any perish and that all come to repentance and then picks John and not Jane too there is a serious problem.

Gordon and all you other Non-Cals out there like me. Please, please, please I beg you - Stop using this verse to explain Gods desire toward the world. You make all of us Non-Cals look completely inept when you use it.
Look at it:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

It is refering to 'us' believers and not the world to come to Faith. He is patiently waiting for believers. He knows them all and when they are to come and He is patiently waiting of their conversion He desires to give in fulfilment of His promise.

As (hopefully) you can see this verse in the context it was written speaks of Gods desire toward those whom He will save. In other words He will wait until the fullness of His salvation to all those who will believe is completed. Though He would do it (come quickly) even now the only reason He doesn't is so ALL may come in and not cut short any that He foreknew.

There are many other verse that discribe properly God benevolence toward the world. Just NOT that one! I know it sounds good but try looking at the rest of it.

Here is a good one:

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

or even this one:

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

The whole world in this dictates with in context and grammer that it refers to ALL mankind.

And there are still others, so please stop using that verses about God patiently enduring till all have come to Him.

 

[Jarthur001]

I think it was Dr. Elmer Towns that put me onto the "in Christ" understanding.



(7) The In Christ statements by Paul in Eph 1 and 2 are clinchers against the Calvinist doctrine as well. Our calling / Election is in Christ, not before or apart from Christ. To be in Christ is to be Elect, Chosen, etc. To be outside Christ prior to salvation is just separated for God by our trespasses and sins.

Much of what was posted was just a bias statement with no support. I'll not address it.
However, if being this is key to your side, lets dig in.

"In Christ" What does it mean? I fail to see where it changes any thing.

Lets limit this to one blessing found in Eph 1. All others would apply the same. Holy has been talked about before, so lets address it.

Your Saying God choose us, after we are "in Christ" to be set apart.

I chose to be saved. To me, this sets me apart from those that are not saved. For if freewill is right, it is I that chooses ...so then I choose to be set apart from those who are in the world...set apart into Christ. It would be my chooseing. Your in the world...or your in Christ.

Now...Your saying after I choose to be set apart to salvation, ..and I am In Christ...that God elects us to be set apart. I'm I following you right?

 

[GordonSlocum]

9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

The word "pantas" means all men in verse 9. The fact that it looks to repentance as well should be sufficient contextual data to explain that the reach is all mankind and specifically expressed so to the present audience, but applicable to all as it states.

If you force your position then you must conclude that the audience is lost or that some are lost.

If you take a position that any of the audience is lost then your view fails. It can't be both ways. That, however, is not contextual regardless, but is a point of emphasis that you are over looking some details.

So my kind return answer to you is re-think the passage in light of it context. The context supports my view 100 percent.

This is not any different form a pastor addressing the local church and in the address making statements that concern all man kind. This is what Peter did. The language and grammar support my position and the context is my position, which is clear

 

[GordonSlocum]

Gordon and all you other Non-Cals out there like me. Please, please, please I beg you - Stop using this verse to explain Gods desire toward the world. You make all of us Non-Cals look completely inept when you use it.
Look at it:

The text supports clearly that these verses address all of mankind. I will be more than glad later today to do a full blown Greek Exegesis of the text if I must. It really is not necessary because the English translations are sufficient.

The NASV translates it better than the KJV, The NKJV and the NIV

I chose to be saved. To me, this sets me apart from those that are not saved. For if freewill is right, it is I that chooses ...so then I choose to be set apart from those who are in the world...set apart into Christ. It would be my choosing. Your in the world...or your in Christ.

Now...Your saying after I choose to be set apart to salvation, ..and I am In Christ...that God elects us to be set apart. I'm I following you right?

(1) The basic permits of Calvinism is that man is so dead he can not decide to believe.

(2) So I understand why you have a hard time accepting my position. That is OK

(3) Words are means to conveying understanding. You have decided to use the word "choose" to convey the word trust or believe or have faith. That is fine with me as long as we are addressing the same issue.

(4) Here once again is my position. "Man can make a free choice to trust in Christ" He is not so tainted or dead in sin and trespasses that he can not respond to the truth when He hears it. When I heard the Gospel I chose, decided, willfully turned to, accepted the truth, and agreed with God about what He said about me and what was necessary from me to be saved. repent and believe in His work not mine, yours or Calvin’s, or any Calvinist for that matter.

Let me say this I don’t say what I say to convince you of anything. You are set in your ways. I am set in my ways. I accept you as you are and I do understand your thinking. I simply disagree. You process things differently.

If we could in a simple way state what we believe. Can you make short clear well defined statements of what you believe without quoting anyone? Can you actuate in simple terms what you believe?

I can:

God knew in all eternity before He created - all that would believe and on that basis provides a witness for them regardless of where they are, when they have lived, are living or will live.

See how simple it is.

Can you do that?

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Allan

Allan,

1... “To be”…I perceive that you feel that “chosen in union with Christ” is a concealed “To be” Election and that I somehow missed it. This would be true if you made one minor adjustment: “chosen into union with Christ.” Note, that I did not say that. Rather, suggesting that being chosen in union with Christ, was simply an attempt to explain that our spiritual union with Christ (compare 1 Cor 6:16-17) is the basis for God’s Election to predestine such a body to all that He has prepared for them.

2… You wrote: “If you are speaking of Him knowing those of His church as a whole then please say so.” Yes, and here's why. Emphasizing foreknowledge of ‘a people’ was merely meant to serve as contrast from the common characterization of foreknowledge of ‘faith’. Furthermore, What is the election of a ‘class’ but the election of so many ‘units’ in that class, which is tantamount to the same thing as ‘individuals’? Indeed, He knew all of the individuals, each one by name. The corporate aspect is simply that God has predestined that this Body of Christ (in union with Christ) would be predestined to all the glory that God has in store for it.

3..in terms of the word "corporate," let me know if there is still an area of concern.

 

[reformedbeliever]

The text supports clearly that these verses address all of mankind. I will be more than glad later today to do a full blown Greek Exegesis of the text if I must. It really is not necessary because the English translations are sufficient.

The NASV translates it better than the KJV, The NKJV and the NIV



(1) The basic permits of Calvinism is that man is so dead he can not decide to believe.

(2) So I understand why you have a hard time accepting my position. That is OK

(3) Words are means to conveying understanding. You have decided to use the word "choose" to convey the word trust or believe or have faith. That is fine with me as long as we are addressing the same issue.

(4) Here once again is my position. "Man can make a free choice to trust in Christ" He is not so tainted or dead in sin and trespasses that he can not respond to the truth when He hears it. When I heard the Gospel I chose, decided, willfully turned to, accepted the truth, and agreed with God about what He said about me and what was necessary from me to be saved. repent and believe in His work not mine, yours or Calvin’s, or any Calvinist for that matter.

Let me say this I don’t say what I say to convince you of anything. You are set in your ways. I am set in my ways. I accept you as you are and I do understand your thinking. I simply disagree. You process things differently.

If we could in a simple way state what we believe. Can you make short clear well defined statements of what you believe without quoting anyone? Can you actuate in simple terms what you believe?

I can:

God knew in all eternity before He created - all that would believe and on that basis provides a witness for them regardless of where they are, when they have lived, are living or will live.

See how simple it is.

Can you do that?

Gordon, you and several others, maybe examiningcalvinism also, hold to God electing due to what you call forknowledge or foresight. If God elects people to salvation due to what He forsaw they would do... then those who He did not forsee have absolutely no chance of salvation. Do you not see that your position is no different than the reformed position? You slam calvinism and say that God sends some to heaven and some to hell......... well if He bases salvation on foresight..... He does the same thing!

If men are going to do what God foresees them doing....... then those He did not see repenting and believeing are lost as can be, and have NO chance to be saved. Grace and peace.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Gordon

Gordon,

You wrote: "The In Christ statements by Paul in Eph 1 and 2 are clinchers against the Calvinist doctrine as well. Our calling / Election is in Christ."

In my experience, many have completely ommitted "in Christ" when quoting Eph 1:4 because they do not fully realize its importance. They will say" God chose me before the foundation of the world." This misquote has the effect of being an "in the Father" Election. Since we are elect in Christ, for clarity sake, I prefer to speak of the elect as the "elect in Christ."

 

[GordonSlocum]

Gordon, you and several others, maybe examining Calvinism also, hold to God electing due to what you call foreknowledge or foresight. If God elects people to salvation due to what He foresaw they would do... then those who He did not foresee have absolutely no chance of salvation. Do you not see that your position is no different than the reformed position? You slam Calvinism and say that God sends some to heaven and some to hell......... well if He bases salvation on foresight..... He does the same thing!

If men are going to do what God foresees them doing....... then those He did not see repenting and believing are lost as can be, and have NO chance to be saved. Grace and peace.

No: God foresees all decisions and elects on that basis in simple words

God did not pick one out of many because all would not period.

Not all will but some will believe and not because they are regenerated first so they can believe. No they believe and are then regenerated.

That really is in the simplest form our difference.

Is man so depraved he has no ability to believe in Jesus or is it the other way. Those are the two main points put in simple language.

We both accept that the saved are the Elect. This is not an issue. It is how are they elect.

Simply put we disagree on the premise that God either arbitrarily picket some because they would not be saved or God picked them because they did believe freely.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Gordon,

You wrote: "The In Christ statements by Paul in Eph 1 and 2 are clinchers against the Calvinist doctrine as well. Our calling / Election is in Christ."

In my experience, many have completely ommitted "in Christ" when quoting Eph 1:4 because they do not fully realize its importance. They will say" God chose me before the foundation of the world." This misquote has the effect of being an "in the Father" Election. Since we are elect in Christ, for clarity sake, I prefer to speak of the elect as the "elect in Christ."

I would agree

 

[npetreley]

IMO the premise is too weird for me to read all the replies, so I apologize if anyone has already asked this.

Is anyone who is saved not in Christ? If so, then please tell me where I can find that passage. If not, then what's the point?