In every political/economic system

[Dragoon68]

Now, about those Canadians that were mentioned way earlier in this thread, let's consider some extracts from a letter written to them by our Continental Congress explaining our cause and inviting them to join with us in it. For whatever reason, God did not move the people of Canada to do as we did.

"Friends and fellow-subjects,

We, the Delegates of the Colonies ... to consult together concerning the best methods to obtain redress of our afflicting grievances, having accordingly assembled and taken into our most serious consideration the state of public affairs on this continent, have thought proper to address your province as a member therein deeply interested.

...

In this form, the first grand right is that of the people having a share in their own government by their representatives chosen by themselves, and, in consequence of being ruled by laws which they themselves approve, not by edicts of men over whom they have no control. ...

...

The next great right is that of trial by jury. This provides that neither life, liberty, nor property can be taken from the possessor until twelve of his unexceptionable countrymen and peers of his vicinity, who from that neighborhood may reasonably be supposed to be acquainted with his character and the characters of the witnesses, upon a fair trial, and full inquiry, face to face in open Court before as many people as chose to attend, shall pass their sentence upon oath against him; a sentence that cannot injure him without injuring their own reputation and probably their interest also, as the question may turn on points that in some degree concern the general welfare; and if it does not, their verdict may form a precedent that on a similar trial of their own may militate against themselves.

...

The last right we shall mention regards the freedom of the press. The importance of this consists, besides the advancement of truth, science, morality, and arts in general, in its diffusion of liberal sentiments on the administration of Government, its ready communication of thoughts between subjects, and its consequential promotion of union among them, whereby oppressive officers are shamed or intimidated into more honorable and just modes of conducting affairs.

...

These are the rights you are entitled to and ought at this moment in perfection to exercise. And what is offered to you by the late Act of Parliament in their place? Liberty of conscience in your religion? No. God gave it to you; and the temporal powers with which you have been and are connected, firmly stipulated for your enjoyment of it. If laws, divine and human, could secure it against the despotic caprices of wicked men, it was secured before.
...

We do not ask you, by this address, to commence acts of hostility against the government of our common Sovereign. We only invite you to consult your own glory and welfare, and not to suffer yourselves to be inveigled or intimidated by infamous ministers so far as to become the instruments of their cruelty and despotism, but to unite with us in one social compact, formed on the generous principles of equal liberty and cemented by such an exchange of beneficial and endearing offices as to render it perpetual. In order to complete this highly desirable union, we submit it to your consideration whether it may not be expedient for you to meet together in your several towns and districts and elect Deputies, who afterward meeting in a provincial Congress, may chose Delegates to represent your province in the continental Congress to be held at Philadelphia on the tenth day of May, 1775.

...

That almighty God may incline your minds to approve our equitable and necessary measures, to add yourselves to us, to put your fate whenever you suffer injuries which you are determined to oppose not on the small influence of your single province but on the consolidated powers of North-America, and may grant to our joint exertions an event as happy as our cause is just, is the fervent prayer of us, your sincere and affectionate friends and fellow-subjects.

By order of the Congress,

Henry Middleton, President."

 

[billwald]

> For whatever reason, God did not move the people of Canada to do as we did.

Or maybe they were better able to resist Satan. No way to tell until we get to the next life and then it will not matter.

 

[Dragoon68]

> For whatever reason, God did not move the people of Canada to do as we did.

Or maybe they were better able to resist Satan. No way to tell until we get to the next life and then it will not matter.

That's wrong on all counts! Everything matters, we can discern from history the best choice for us was the one made, and our quest for liberty was not at all a yielding to Satan!

 

[Eric B]

So a group of people who were the beneficiaries of the "expulsion" of "The savages of the wilderness" claimed it was God who gave the land to them. All of those quotes are not scripture. They do not prove who was truly following God, and what God was truly doing in the world, centuries after the close of scriptural canon. They look like just any other conquerors, who had a value system and religion they could appeal to. They had some good works, but we know what those are before God. They had some good principles, but that does not prove who in this topic TODAY is in the right, or to be blamed for everything wrong, which was the original point of this topic.

Also, forgot to mention, before, it should be pointed out, regarding all these charges of "hating America":
Before 9-11, the biggest attack against this country on its own land, was not by Islamists or communists, but by a group of home-grown conservatives, and those who were against the government, and felt it was going against the Constitution and the principles of the founders, and should be removed.
The irony is that they did not put a single dent in that big bad government, but did succeed in killing hundreds of innocent American lives. Much more recently, we had a virtual minature repeat of 9-11, aimed at the IRS, this time also home-grown, and while he was not really a conservative, still, conservatives seemed to sympathize with him! (and now, just a couple of months later, it is as if it never happened!) And just today, the latest militia, and a "christian" one at that.

So people need to think, its it really America (and its people) they love, or just some romanticized fantasy of what it was, and should be, that it is obviously not living up to today; and thus they actually are the ones who hate the country, in it's real life form.
This is what happens from ignoring the Biblical teaching that all men are equally sinful, and thinking one's group has some special favor.

 

[Dragoon68]

... So people need to think, its it really America (and its people) they love, or just some romanticized fantasy of what it was, and should be, that it is obviously not living up to today; and thus they actually are the ones who hate the country, in it's real life form.
This is what happens from ignoring the Biblical teaching that all men are equally sinful, and thinking one's group has some special favor.

The record was written long before you or I came on the scene and the words still read very clearly and are easy to discern. You can try to twist if you'd like but I prefer to take it the way it was written by those who wrote it. I've provided just a small fraction of the documentation that's available. An intelligent person could dig up volumes more and it would make much better reading than the vomit being spewed out by those who just don't want America to be a success story. Just think what a positive effect we could have if we could tell the story the way it really was with the same feeling as it was at the beginning! If we're not living up to it today it's because we've forgotten who gave us all these great blessings and we've decided it meant nothing and was worthless and all we can focus on are the little defects. Let's not give on it despite its occasional flaws and its recent corruption by liberal minds lost in fantasy, fallacy, and foolishness. A key in implementation of such degradation is reducing all systems to the same lowest common denominator making the best seem worse and the worse seem much better. But God is patient and forgiving. Hopefully He will cause us to turn our nation back towards Him and He will sustain us a little longer.

 

[Eric B]

And that just further illustrates the attribution shift I have been talking about. Past America only had "little defects" and "occasional flaws", while today, the "liberals", with their "fantasy, fallacy, and foolishness" are the ultimate evil, and have single-handedly "corrupted" it. This is the way everyone thinks. I committed adultery; but it was consensual. No one was hurt. At least I didn't kill anyone, or rob an old lady. On the flipside is the "religious" James talks about: Yeah; we murdered, but at least we didn't commit adultery. That's the worse sin in God's eyes. (Which is precisely the mindset of those who think America's past was so innocent).

I guess Eden was restored a few centuries ago, and the Serpent reappeared in the guise of these "liberals". Thing is, the liberals did not bomb or overtthrow the government (like these radical conservatives want to, you know, to restore Eden once again) and then take over; they were voted in, by "the people" using that free election process the founders instituted. You have to question why they voted them in, and of course, that will just lead to more blaming of others, such as the "godless education system", or the media. But then those institutions did not bomb their way in or violently overthrow the state either. If that were the case, you would have more of an argument. But they too worked their way up from the bottom, and were appointed positions of power where they could spread their influence. Nobody (at least in this country) can walk into a school, media company or government house and just take over. Let alone every school, media and govt. at the same time. They were all voted or promoted there.

The question is why. Why were people apparently so unhappy with the way things were in the past, which in this free country, is what would lead them to try these other ways and change things in the first place? That's what it is going to lead back to, and you might have to take a hard look at the past, and yes, maybe some more "details" you think are unimportant, in the typical glossed-over reading of history.

And I did not appeal to "liberal foolishness"; I appealed to scripture, and this is still brushed aside. This "record" written before you or I were born must carry even greater weight to scripture, because we can openly dismiss scripture, but don't dare touch that stuff. Don't dare make these MEN the same, some are clearly "better". How dare Jesus and the apostles chastize the righteous Pharisees for thinking themselves better than the "dogs" of the gentiles!
After all, God blessed them, and gave them their nation, and religious authority, too. (At least that is recorded in canonical scripture).They they could tell the story "with that same feeling". All men sinned and fell short of God's glory? Liberal puke!
So Rom. 11:32 can be torn right out of the Bible, right in the same breath as accusing others of "forgetting God"! 3:19; our mouths can keep running, because even though "all the world is guilty"; we still have some sort of merit, or God Himself made an exception with us. We're sinners; but, we're still better as a nation than others. That must count for something. (Basically, that all our problems are someone else's fault!)

After all, God's plan today is just to continue reverting to the Old Testament and "choosing" some nations over others; and making some people "better" (more moral, more wise, more 'deserving' of riches and power) than others. Just where does the Cross fit in with this?
Maybe that Hutaree group and others like it will take this nation back to its godly roots, and make this country a success story we can all be pproud of again, and destroy the liberals in order to accomplish that. That is all they want, after all! Maybe God is the one raising them up, as they themselves claim.

 

[Dragoon68]

... Past America only had "little defects" and "occasional flaws", while today, the "liberals", with their "fantasy, fallacy, and foolishness" are the ultimate evil, and have single-handedly "corrupted" it. ...

Well at least that's close to the truth except that the liberals have had the help of far too many passive or compromising conservatives.

 

[Dragoon68]

... And I did not appeal to "liberal foolishness"; I appealed to scripture, and this is still brushed aside. ...

You appeal to liberal foolishness by the misuse of scripture. That's a very common problem.

 

[Dragoon68]

From time to time it is suggested that early Americans thought themselves better than others and above sinfulness in their daily lives. That's not true! For example, consider these notes of the Continental Congress:



"Monday, December 9, 1776

Resolved, That a committee of three be appointed to prepare an address to the inhabitants of America, and a recommendation to the several States to appoint a day of fasting, humiliation, and prayer.

The members chosen, Mr. Witherspoon, Mr. R. H. Lee, and Mr. Adams.

Wednesday, December 11, 1776

The committee appointed to prepare a resolution for appointing a day of fasting and humiliation brought in a report, which was read and agreed to, as follows;—

Whereas the war in which the United States are engaged with Great Britain has not only been prolonged, but is likely to be carried to the greatest extremity, and whereas it becomes all public bodies, as well as private persons, to reverence the providence of God, and look up to him as the Supreme Disposer of all events and the arbiter of the fate of nations: therefore,

Resolved, That it be recommended to all the United States, as soon as possible, to appoint a day of solemn fasting and humiliation, to implore of Almighty God the forgiveness of the many sins prevailing among all ranks, and to beg the countenance and assistance of his providence in the prosecution of the present just and necessary war.

The Congress do also, in the most earnest manner, recommend to all the members of the United States, and particularly the officers, civil and military, under them, the exercise of repentance and reformation; and, further, require of them the strict observation of the articles of war, and particularly that part of the said articles which forbids profane swearing and all immorality, of which all such officers are desired to take notice. It is left to each State to issue out proclamations fixing the day that appears most proper within its bounds.

Ordered, That the above be published by the committee who brought in the report."



They knew exactly who and what they were and they knew they depended upon God's forgiveness, grace, and providence. They were on the right track - the same one we should be on today!

It's a terrible thing when we misuse our sinfulness in a foolish attempt to make all systems equal before men. If we applied this universally no parent would be able to discipline their child, no Church would be able to rebuke a wayward member, and no government would be able to execute justice because all would say "you way is no better than mine".

 

[Eric B]

Well at least that's close to the truth except that the liberals have had the help of far too many passive or compromising conservatives.

Yeah; I've heard that one too. "Passive conservatives". Like Peter Ruckman bashing other KJVO's for not being harsh enough like him. Or KJVO's and other similar minded old-liners, who blame America's decline on preachers like Jerry Falwell for not being "conservative" enough.
I'm sure the Hutaree says the same thing about everyone else who does not join them in taking up arms.

Also, you thus admit agreeing that past America only had "little defects" and "occasional flaws", while today, the "liberals", with their "fantasy, fallacy, and foolishness" are the ultimate evil, and have single-handedly "corrupted" it. Do you also agree with the rest of the statement connected with it; that if we murder but commit no adultery; that's OK? Our sin is never as bad as the next person's. Yeah, we all sin; but, ours is not as bad as others.

You appeal to liberal foolishness by the misuse of scripture. That's a very common problem.

That's not misuse of scripture. I put no interpretation on it, but just let it speak for itself. You have yet to show where your ideology (such as "our sins are small and occasional, while others' sins are ultimate evil) is in line with scripture. It's like whatever the scripture says, you teach the exact opposite when it comes to this nationalism. You can't blame any 'misuse' by me or the liberals on that.

From time to time it is suggested that early Americans thought themselves better than others and above sinfulness in their daily lives.

Actually, no. It's not so much about them making themselves better, but people like yourself today, overromanticizing them, making them "better". It would be an utter irony, if they really did recognize their own sin and place themselves squarely on God's mercy, and you come 200 years later and say "no; their sins were nothing; it's only these wicked dogs today who are sinful".

Again; you need to show from scripture where God would do this special work with Americans, that would override all the sin that plagues the rest of mankind, so that their sins would be "little" and "occasional", and that all problems in the land would be everyone else's fault. OT Israel didn't even have it like that. You accuse me of misusing scripture; now lets see you use any scripture at all, and square this teaching about a nation far in the future with it.

Just look at the focus of your posts:

But God is patient and forgiving. Hopefully He will cause us to turn our nation back towards Him and He will sustain us a little longer.

Isn't God coming back to restore the world, and turn it back to Him? (which will not be done by any political or moral revolution, though the Hutaree and others think so). Isn't the eternal Kingdom what we're supposed to be waiting asnd praying for? Why does America get this special temporal treatment, while the rest of the world is still decaying, and what we're all supposed to be waiting for is the final redempton of the world?

It's a terrible thing when we misuse our sinfulness in a foolish attempt to make all systems equal before men. If we applied this universally no parent would be able to discipline their child, no Church would be able to rebuke a wayward member, and no government would be able to execute justice because all would say "you way is no better than mine".

Now, you've totally jumped the track, to something I've never argued. The authority of parents, Churches and governments against sinning subjects has nothing to do with any "equality". That is where your philosophy keeps going off the deep end. If a person sins, or even practices sin, he doesn't become less of a person, which is what that almost sounds like. (Especially when saying others abdicated their rights to land and resources because of their sin, while "God's chosen" gain these things from them because of their virtue).
"Unequal", how? He is to be chastized, brought to repentance, etc. but that hs nothing to do with others being "better" in comparison. Christ says that whoever does what was expected of him should will call themselves "unworthy". Paul warns not to be haughty looking at the sinning Israelites being cut off, because they can be cut off too. And those comparing themselves among themselves are not wise. Nowhere is anyone ever encouraged to call themselves or some group they identify with "better". We are told to think of others as better, however! Oh, but that verse was dismissed days ago.
And as much as you complain about all these "liberals"; this is what fuels their rejection of any standards. You inject a judgment of "better" into morality, where it does not belong, and it is obvious that no one is really better than anyone else, so then they reject morality. Teach God's standards, and not your own self-glorifying ones, and maybe then the liberals will be more likely to listen to us. But it's so much easier to just maintain our stance and point at others.

 

[Dragoon68]

You seem to be getting a bit too agitated, EricB! Your last post was nothing but a bunch of wild jabs at me. Calm down a bit and don't worry so much about winning an argument. Read the quotations of some of the patriots that I've posted. Ponder them. Try to get the true meaning of their words and the great significance of the events they wrote about straight in your mind. America was founded by and through the providence of God. It has been sustained by God's temporal grace to this time. We've been a very blessed nation and are most fortunate to have inherited the fruits of our forefathers blood, sweat, and tears. You really should develop a strong appreciation for that and praise God for it. Some day we may enjoy the same extent of blessings as they did.

 

[Eric B]

You seem to be getting a bit too agitated, EricB! Your last post was nothing but a bunch of wild jabs at me. Calm down a bit and don't worry so much about winning an argument.

They weren't wild jabs; they were specifically answering your repeated charges of "liberalism", which were the true "wild jabs", because I have never defended any liberal or liberal position, or said the liberal government was "better" or anything like that.

Read the quotations of some of the patriots that I've posted. Ponder them. Try to get the true meaning of their words and the great significance of the events they wrote about straight in your mind. America was founded by and through the providence of God. It has been sustained by God's temporal grace to this time. We've been a very blessed nation and are most fortunate to have inherited the fruits of our forefathers blood, sweat, and tears.

They claimed that, and they may have had some nice ideals, but they were still men, and that "providence" concept always ends up justifying the means used to gain and build this land. Whose blood, sweat and tears, really? I'm sure you're not thinking of the slaves. Slave owners would more likely be the ones to get all the credit for that, before the slaves, who shed most of the actual blood, sweat & tears. What an irony! But of course, between the two groups; God was on one of their side, and the others had forfeited their human rights, right? Even though most won't admit it, this is usually where the implication leads, and then when you read the full writings of those people, with their talk of "barbarians" and "savages", it all fits together.

So yes, I get agitated when people refuse to see the whole picture, and instead throw catch phrases such as "liberal" or "making everything equal" (as if that was even wrong), like that automatically proves that the other view is anti-God. And we focus all the blame on on side and excuse the other side. Nothing will ever get better that way. People blamed welfare for all the taxes they were angry about, and that was finally reformed, but the financial problems in the country continued to get worse. So the wrong thing was focused on, and it is really the rich who continue to get richer, not the poor; and the middle class continue to get bounced around in this roller coaster, with many continuing to blame the wrong things. This is highly agitating!

You really should develop a strong appreciation for that and praise God for it. Some day we may enjoy the same extent of blessings as they did.

I was tired last night, and forgot the other examples I was thinking of, but here is one of them. You're preaching praise of God for America (including some supposed future revival when we get rid of all this "anti-Americanism", and then God in turn "blesses" us again) more than praise of God for salvation, or for the the future Kingdom or Heaven. --or even praise of God for anything good, wherever we are. Those are what the Gospel is about. You have infused America (specifically, indelibly) into the whole divine plan, as some special work of God. I just don't see any Biblical warrant for that. And the ideology I see connected with this carries a very negative connotation for me, as I've explained.
I guess I have NYC in my profile, but I could have not even been American for all you knew. There are others here who are not American. It is not all about us. But we think so, and then fail to realize that this sort of arrogance is just as offensive to God as any of the sins of the liberals or "anti-Americans" we point at. If we think God is "removing blessings in judgment", we should perhaps look no further than this.

 

[windcatcher]

You know? I get agitated when I keep hearing the harping about how bad slaves were treated and all that.... . No doubt some were treated badly; some were treated unjustly; some were treated without regard to their humanity, or value of life, or the unity of their home; No doubt some were violated and abused.

Before the widespread establishment of chattel slavery (outright ownership of the slave, and of his/her descendants), much labor was organized under a system of bonded labor known as indentured servitude. This typically lasted for several years for white and black alike, and it was a means of using labor to pay the costs of transporting people to the colonies.[4] By the 18th century, slavery was racialized by courts and legislatures to apply nearly exclusively to Black Africans and people of African descent, and occasionally to Native Americans.

Twelve million Africans were shipped to the Americas from the 16th to the 19th centuries (see Slavery in the Americas).[5][6] Of these, an estimated 645,000 were brought to what is now the United States.[7] The slave population in the United States had grown to four million by the 1860 Census.[8]

Slavery was already a dying institution in the south before the outbreak of the civil war. Many of those who had slaves were also supportive in their health care, instruction, and spiritual development and the gospel message. Sure, there were abuses, and, no doubt, the purpose of some instruction was to control or create a peaceful climate of submission to authority. But to grow a population from 3/4 of a million people to 4 million people in an age where both slave and non-slave alike, were threatened by disease, many died in child birth, many children died young due to childhood diseases, where an injury meant likely infection and death...... means the 'persecution' was not as great as some make it to appear: Obviously, there was some attention and care given to most, and the relationship could be said to have been more symbiotic than parasitic.... the latter being more popularized by current propaganda.

This is not meant to defend slavery..... but is intended to cool some fires with presentation of facts which should also be taken into account.

However way I might have come to this land..... I am thankful to God that I was born here and that it was here I heard the gospel, got saved, and have the freedom to enjoy life and express my faith. I think for many who have descended from slaves...... who are Christians ..... would count the worth that God had a plan for their good in spite of the evil ills within the institution called slavery.

Funny thing is that..... human slavery was a part of our history which terminated over 100 years ago...... yet many continue to not merely remember the past as history.... but try to keep it alive as though it is something we owe or can change today. Slavery then was the bondage of human life. The present concern we should consider far more important today..... is the unappreciated, and often unaddressed bondage of the human soul to sin. One can be a slave or servant in this life and still have liberty in Jesus...... and one can think he is a free man and not know his own eternal bondage to sin and death without Jesus Christ.

Sorry, Eric, but I have trouble trying to validate the things you say when you hold man responsible for everything bad....... and seem unable to recognize the grace and mercy of God inspite of man's shortcomings..... and give him thanks and glory.
It seems that if you are so dissatisfied with where he has placed you and what he has provided for your good..... you need to take your complaints to him.

 

[Robert Snow]

But ... we didn't "come in and take" as you imply. We bought land, we traded for it, we settled on it where no one lived, we fought for some of it - but we didn't steal it. Do you think the Indians owned and occupied all the land from shore to shore? Do you really think it was all theirs to do with as they wished? We didn't even make that claim!

This is not true! Roger Williams, who is often called the first Baptist in America, was banished by the Pilgrims because he objected to their stealing the land from the Indians without compensation.

 

[Robert Snow]

I understand where you're coming from now. You actually want socialism to take over in America because you don't see anything special about the blessings God have given us.

Why do so many of you use this tactic? You know this is a lie, yet you say it to make it appear EricB is a socialist. Why don't you simply acknowledge where he is right and show where he is wrong without all the false accusations.

 

[Dragoon68]

Why do so many of you use this tactic? You know this is a lie, yet you say it to make it appear EricB is a socialist. Why don't you simply acknowledge where he is right and show where he is wrong without all the false accusations.

It would be very easy you or EricB to make clear just where you do stand. All it would take would be some clear solid support for capitalism. But I haven't read that yet! Therefore, I take it that, at the very least, you are not supporters and, instead, eager to try something else which leads us right to socialism.

Neither of you will shame me into being ashamed of America.

 

[Dragoon68]

This is not true! Roger Williams, who is often called the first Baptist in America, was banished by the Pilgrims because he objected to their stealing the land from the Indians without compensation.

I hope you're smart enough not to believe that little snippet makes a solid case that America stole the land from the Indians!

Roger Williams was was tried and convicted of sedition and heresy in 1635 because he was such a strong separatist and order banished from the colony. He found refuge with the an Indian tribe. He did have a close relationship with them in his missionary work and did lean towards their point of view on some matters.

By the way, Roger believed so strongly, just as I do, in the Providence of God that he named his new settlement Providence.

 

[Dragoon68]

... You're preaching praise of God for America (including some supposed future revival when we get rid of all this "anti-Americanism", and then God in turn "blesses" us again) more than praise of God for salvation, or for the the future Kingdom or Heaven. --or even praise of God for anything good, wherever we are. Those are what the Gospel is about. You have infused America (specifically, indelibly) into the whole divine plan, as some special work of God. I just don't see any Biblical warrant for that. And the ideology I see connected with this carries a very negative connotation for me, as I've explained.

I guess I have NYC in my profile, but I could have not even been American for all you knew. There are others here who are not American. It is not all about us. But we think so, and then fail to realize that this sort of arrogance is just as offensive to God as any of the sins of the liberals or "anti-Americans" we point at. If we think God is "removing blessings in judgment", we should perhaps look no further than this.

I'm preaching our praise of God's blessings to us through His Providence. I'm saying we should give thanks to Him for what He has given us as unmerited as we may be. It was, is, and will be His Providence that gave and sustains the economic and political systems that we enjoy. It has nothing to do with God's praise of us which no man deserves. It has nothing to do with a covenant or birthright or merit or anything like that. It certainly has nothing to do with arrogance! You keep getting that twisted around to fit your argument. Get over it - it's not the point that was made!

I don't know why God blessed this nation but I'm really glad He did. It suits His purposes. I do know that if we don't appreciate what He's given us, if we fall in love with something else that's inferior to it, if we don't try to be Godly men and women in this great nation, and if we keep trying to push Him out of every venue known to man then I think His patience will ultimately pass and He may well remove His blessings from us.

I don't care if you're from America or not. I'm not going to think any less of America because of it. In fact, as I've said before, I have immediate family on several sides of this earth - America, Asia, and Europe. I have two homelands and two cultures right in my own home and I love them both. But, hands down, America is the best place to live from the perspective of its economic and political systems. That doesn't take away from the richness of the other nations but I can clearly see that, for our nation's history, we have been greatly blessed. But it also puts my loyalty squarely with America so long as it holds true to the basic ideals upon which it was founded. Despite today's problems I haven't given up on this nation and I think through God's hand we can restore her to the right path.

The vast bulk of the historical record clearly supports exactly what I'm saying. It is liberalism - whether you like the term or not - that seeks to destroy and alter that record. You may or may not know that's what you're doing but you are no the less. Now, if you don't lean this direction, then clearly so state - It's not that hard to do! I read you're repeated denials of what you're not but I read no clear statement of where you do stand or than against most everything. I read you're repeated discredits of America but I read no praise of America.

Like I told, Robert, you're not going to shame me into being shameful of America.

 

[righteousdude2]

The Rev. Gets an "A+"

Socialism is against the founding of this country and the constitution. End of story

Our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves. That is why there's been so many earthquakes in the last few months:laugh:

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[Eric B]

You know? I get agitated when I keep hearing the harping about how bad slaves were treated and all that.... .

Well, when people insist it is some good work of God, and refuse to see it as the sinful act of man; that is why it keeps coming up. If the communists won the Cold War, or the Islamists, or any other group took over, none of you would be saying that was a good work of God, (or if you did, it would be Him punishing everyone else in the nation for their sins!)

No doubt some were treated badly; some were treated unjustly; some were treated without regard to their humanity, or value of life, or the unity of their home; No doubt some were violated and abused.
Slavery was already a dying institution in the south before the outbreak of the civil war. Many of those who had slaves were also supportive in their health care, instruction, and spiritual development and the gospel message. Sure, there were abuses, and, no doubt, the purpose of some instruction was to control or create a peaceful climate of submission to authority. But to grow a population from 3/4 of a million people to 4 million people in an age where both slave and non-slave alike, were threatened by disease, many died in child birth, many children died young due to childhood diseases, where an injury meant likely infection and death...... means the 'persecution' was not as great as some make it to appear: Obviously, there was some attention and care given to most, and the relationship could be said to have been more symbiotic than parasitic.... the latter being more popularized by current propaganda.

This is not meant to defend slavery..... but is intended to cool some fires with presentation of facts which should also be taken into account.

However way I might have come to this land..... I am thankful to God that I was born here and that it was here I heard the gospel, got saved, and have the freedom to enjoy life and express my faith. I think for many who have descended from slaves...... who are Christians ..... would count the worth that God had a plan for their good in spite of the evil ills within the institution called slavery.

Funny thing is that..... human slavery was a part of our history which terminated over 100 years ago...... yet many continue to not merely remember the past as history.... but try to keep it alive as though it is something we owe or can change today. Slavery then was the bondage of human life. The present concern we should consider far more important today..... is the unappreciated, and often unaddressed bondage of the human soul to sin. One can be a slave or servant in this life and still have liberty in Jesus...... and one can think he is a free man and not know his own eternal bondage to sin and death without Jesus Christ.

Slavery was something God allowed under the Old Covenant, and much of that was really closer to indentured servanthood. Afterwards, it became one of those aspect of mankind's barbaric past, that he has slowly grown out of. Just like treatment of women. But I see this whole attempt to try to make American slavery some biblical act of God as ultimately justifying it. It was a sign of the times, just like all the sins you complain about today.

Pertinent scriptures:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Act&c=17&t=KJV#30Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

1Tim.1:10 "meanstealing" listed with a group of commonly condemned sins

Sorry, Eric, but I have trouble trying to validate the things you say when you hold man responsible for everything bad....... and seem unable to recognize the grace and mercy of God inspite of man's shortcomings..... and give him thanks and glory.

I thought man was [held] "responsible", even though God caused a given situation.
Anyway, in that some vein, all of the stuff you complain about today,(liberalism, socialism, Obama, anti-Americanism, sexual sin in pop culture, etc) also is from God, but man is held responsible for it. ABut that's another [Calvinism/free will] debate. It shows that people are selective about what they see God's glory in (and tell others to, likewise), and what they see as some infinite evil that has absolutely no good or grace in it at all.

It seems that if you are so dissatisfied with where he has placed you and what he has provided for your good..... you need to take your complaints to him.

Yeah; just go look at that new "Grasshopper" thread, (which you've already responded to me in), and tell me that. (You wonder why I'm so agitated with this stuff; just look at that topic, and what it leads to, with people not having a clue as to the meanings behind rhetoric they quickly agree with).
It seems like only your side is allowed to complain about everything. I'm just supposed to shut up and accept everything that happens as God's will. What's that about?

It would be very easy you or EricB to make clear just where you do stand. All it would take would be some clear solid support for capitalism. But I haven't read that yet! Therefore, I take it that, at the very least, you are not supporters and, instead, eager to try something else which leads us right to socialism.

Neither of you will shame me into being ashamed of America.

I have no obligation from God to confess any allegiance to capitalism, or otherwise default to socialism. Christ can say who is not with Him is against Him, and that whoever does not follow God is following Satan, with nothing inbetween. It is not the same with some manmade economic system. Yet, it keeps being equated with Christ, as if it were taught in the Bible. All of them are from fallen man, and as I said before, I submit to the one I live under according to scripture, and try to be the best citizen I can be under it. Yet I'm allowed to complain about what's wrong with it, just as you do. So no one's trying to make you ashamed of it, any more than you already are unhappy about things in it. But our first allegiance is to God. The priorities are sorely mixed up around here.