In the context if the Bible, is the word 'believe' the same as "faith'?

[Alan Dale Gross]

This is definitely a point of contention. Herein is where one of the points of contention. When does that life begin?

When does Eternal Life begin?

The hypothesis of learned Theologians, who have considered when Eternal Life begins in the soul is logically illustrated by answering how a light bulb is turned on in a room using a light switch.

When we turn on a light switch, it sure seems like the light instantly comes on at the same time.

But, chronologically, we know that the wall switch has to be turned on first.

So, we're seeing the speed of electricity going from the switch to the light bulb is QUICK.

Again however, from the standpoint of logic, the switch must be turned on, before the light comes on.

The lightbulb in the ceiling is not going to just 'TURN ON' by itself, right, without a source of electricity for it to be fired up and make light?

Thus, all the controversies about How, What, and When the Experience of Salvation takes place should be able to be resolved by that illustration, for the sake of honesty.

Mankind has something within them, which indicates and signals to them for the most part their actions as sometimes being right and acceptable in society and sometimes they feel quite wrong.

That is their conscience doing that and making them feel alright about their actions, or wrong.

Who put that there? God. The same one Who Laid the Foundation of Reason and makes it Constant, i.e., "1+1=2", yesterday, today, and tomorrow, too. "1+2 NEVER EQUALS 46".

Therefore, we have God at times definitely letting us know in our conscience He Put in our mind that we know that He knows that we know He KNOWS WE'VE DONE SOMETHING OFFENSIVE TO HIM. The Law, as a schoolmaster, can drive some people to Jesus, when they are preached the Gosple as being Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. And yet, not all of Mankind comes to Jesus Who is the Only Way of salvation.

Both hearers have sensed when hearing about God's Law, and even without it, that they are guilty before this Unseen Being, but even when given the solution to their problem in Jesus' Work of salvation He Perfectly Accomplished, some remain lost.

How, What, and When is the difference made between the two?

You remember that conscience which both have when they are lost, that may make both of them feel guilty in their soul, but they find that their will, their efforts, and seeming desire for deliverance from Hell and to have a Home in Heaven only produce a, "I hope I'm saved" religion that provides them no assurance whether they are saved or not, and in fact, they have never had a salvation experience during their life. They are both lost in their sins. What makes the defence?

While humans presently operate in what I will call, "The Realm of Facts", that we can discern with our five senses, there is a Higher Realm of the Spirit. "The Spirit Realm" exists and is actually more real than what we in "The Realm of Facts" that we can see, hear, touch, smell, or taste.

God is Spirit.

Any thought of the sin-cursed reasoning of man, using a mind that suffered the effects of the Fall of Adam, which tries to say and assume man is "made in God's Image," has anything to do with them possessing any Absolute Divine Attributes in The Spirit Realm, with which they can use to transcend The Realm of the Facts into the Spirit Realm the Holy Perfect God is Spirit Lives in, to talk to Him, face to Face, heart to Heart, didn't get that from God's Revelation in the Bible.

Nor, has there ever been in the History of Mankind, a lost soul having "a Spark of Divinity".

The only place a lost soul can Receive The New Birth, by which they Enter in and can now discern the Reality in the Spirit Realm is by the Almighty Divine Power of the Holy Spirit, when He Regenerates their soul.

When you understand, or at least accept as a model theory to consider, that the Activity of the New Birth is Initiated by God, then since this REGENERATION takes place in the lost soul BELOW THE LEVEL OF CONSCIOUSNESS, WE BEGIN TO SEE HOW IT IS THAT A LOST SOUL IS CHANGED AND NOW HAS A CAPABILTY TO PERSONALLY WILL TO REPENT AND COME TO JESUS.

The Spiritual Change is not made to make the lost soul 'will', 'or try to', or decide' to repent and believe, but once the soul has been Born Again and becomes a Partaker of the Divine Nature, then that Born Again soul has the Spiritual Ability Given to them BY GRACE, to will and decide to Repent and have Faith in Jesus' Blood to save their soul. There has been a notable recognition of them being a hopeless light bulb', by that other illustration, and they will acknowledge it was God Who Flicked the Switch.

The 'light bulb' will have the capability of seeing and being aware of their utter and absolute need and the New Found discernment and appreciation for The Switch Who they know Changed their soul, to now hate sin and love and worship and follow their Savior.

I think the Bible is clear that it begins with the indwelling

Provided that what you are saying agrees with what is above and our God Above.

I think the Bible is clear that it begins with the indwelling, because that's what makes us one with Jesus, born again [the life] and justified.
Provided that what you are saying agrees with what is above and our God Above.

But that's a problem for the TULIP system.

TULIP IS AN ETERNALLY SECURE AND TRUE BIBLE TEACHING WITH ELEMENTS IN ALMOST EVERY CHAPTER SPELLED OUT, WHILE EVERYWHERE ELSE, TULIP IS IN PERFECT HARMONY WITH THE DOCTRINES OF GRACE AND THE ONE ETERNAL COVENANT OF SALVATION BY THE TRIUNE GODHEAD, THROUGHOUT THE BIBLE, IN ITS ENTIRITY.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

there is a distinction to be made, and it lays with the context of each, and plays right into this topic. Paul, is usually in the context of justification, which speaks of our initial faith, or trusting believing, while James, is speaking of the evidences of one living by the Spirit, the ongoing faith, the life.

Exactly on point. That is exactly the distinction being made by these two Bible writers.

there is a distinction to be made: Paul speaks of our initial faith, or trusting believing,

!!!!

while James, is speaking of the evidences of one living by the Spirit, the ongoing faith, the life.

!!!!!

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

the indwelling, as Scripture clearly shows us

Dare I ask what you guys mean by "the indwelling"?

Where does that come from?

 

[Van]

Van, whose righteousness is being credited?

Dave

More nonsense, more change of subject questions, more deflection and obfuscation. This is all they have. They deny God credits the faith of believers as righteousness.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

But the new birth is what gives us the life, right?

Ephesians 2:1; "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins";

I notice here in this verse that there is an absence of 'life' expressed, when it says those who are saved were previously those "who were dead in trespasses and sins."

2:8,9; "For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

And, I'd have to wonder if you are O.K. with salvation being "not of yourselves"
and what this says:

2:9; "Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Because, as you are going through all this:

You can't have life without the new birth

you can't have the new birth, without also having the life

Do you agree?

You're not mentioning what it is that you think that 'life' is that you are referring to

So, I have to opt out on answering that (even though you weren't talking to me to start with...)

If yes, then I would suggest that we believe so that we can have the Holy Spirit placed into us.

That is a remarkably crazy, gratuitous assertion fallacy, IF I HAVE EVER SEEN ONE.

Then, do you see 'believe' in any of your quotes up to here in this post?

That was enough of a leap from playing around with the word 'life' and now you changed it to something to do with saying 'believing'? has something to do with causing The New Birth.

Do you believe you birthed yourself?

If, how did you do that?

Especially when God says it was He that "quickened" the dead soul to life.

That would make something that was dead to be the birthing cause of its own birth effect.

Which also places us into Christ and His death and resurrection, born again

Where did you come up with the phrase "places us into"?

Where did that come from?

That's the life.

What is "the life'? Is it were you were trying to say were you birthed yourself by your Eternal Life
quickening ability to birth yourself from the dead?

Sounds like your attempting to rob Jesus Christ of His Glory that He Accomplished by His Perfect Life being Sacrificed in His death, burial, and resurrection, where He is Able to give ETERNAL LIFE, TO AS MANY AS God has given Him.

Now, you can boast that you don't need Him and you've taken care of your sin, yourself?

Ant, yet, NOT before God.

The Gospel is believe and be saved.

No, it absolutely is not "believe and be saved" that the Bible teaches is what "the Gospel" is.

Believe and have life.

Every person and every Angel that has ever been Created "believes".

Even the fool has only "said in his heart" that there is no God. He didn't say he "believes" it.

We are made alive in Christ.

Nice try, but you have said that being Spiritually "made alive" is the result of your own 'physical belief, with your own physical belief being the cause of you being Spiritually "made alive".

So, you can't use a bunch of small blurps with errors in them already to build something that not just a plain old bigger error.

 

[Dave...]

When does Eternal Life begin?

Hi Alan

Eternal life begins when we are born again. Which begins when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The only place a lost soul can Receive The New Birth, by which they Enter in and can now discern the Reality in the Spirit Realm is by the Almighty Divine Power of the Holy Spirit, when He Regenerates their soul.

You see, you said it yourself. Now we only need ask when do we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Because we know that with the Spirit we are His, and have life, without the Spirit we are not His, and of the flesh....

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

When do we receive the Holy Spirit indwelling?

Galatians 2:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

This is right in line with the Gospel message.

John 3:15-16 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Paul agrees...

Romans 9:11 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

It's a simple thing.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

Dare I ask what you guys mean by "the indwelling"?

Where does that come from?

That's why we are called temples of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 3:16-17, 6:19) Also see John 14:15-17, Ez. 36:26-27, Eph 1:13. In the previous post, Romans 8:9-11 applies. along with Galatians 3:2-3.

 

[Dave...]

Ephesians 2:1; "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins";

I notice here in this verse that there is an absence of 'life' expressed, when it says those who are saved were previously those "who were dead in trespasses and sins."

Agreed. When does that life begin? Answer above in my previous posts.

2:8,9; "For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

And, I'd have to wonder if you are O.K. with salvation being "not of yourselves"
and what this says:

2:9; "Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Because, as you are going through all this:

Agreed. It is by faith that we enter into this grace. Romans 5:1. Ephes. 2:8 says the same thing.

That is a remarkably crazy, gratuitous assertion fallacy, IF I HAVE EVER SEEN ONE.

Then, do you see 'believe' in any of your quotes up to here in this post?

That was enough of a leap from playing around with the word 'life' and now you changed it to something to do with saying 'believing'? has something to do with causing The New Birth.

Do you believe you birthed yourself?

If, how did you do that?

Especially when God says it was He that "quickened" the dead soul to life.

That would make something that was dead to be the birthing cause of its own birth effect.

It's all a gift from being placed into Christ, by the indwelling of the Holy spirit. It's a placing into, immersion, baptism by faith. Believe and be saved, that's the gospel. What Gospel do you preach?

Where did you come up with the phrase "places us into"?

Where did that come from?

Baptism means placing into. out of time.

 

[Dave...]

What is "the life'? Is it were you were trying to say were you birthed yourself by your Eternal Life
quickening ability to birth yourself from the dead?

Hi Alan

The Holy Spirit made me born again when He was placed into me by Jesus in response to my faith.

Sounds like your attempting to rob Jesus Christ of His Glory that He Accomplished by His Perfect Life being Sacrificed in His death, burial, and resurrection, where He is Able to give ETERNAL LIFE, TO AS MANY AS God has given Him.

Nope, it's all from Jesus. The atonement, the righteousness imputed to me. Being freed from the bondage of sin, born again.

Now, you can boast that you don't need Him and you've taken care of your sin, yourself?

No, it absolutely is not "believe and be saved" that the Bible teaches is what "the Gospel" is.

Romans 10:8-But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"

Every person and every Angel that has ever been Created "believes".

Obviously, 'believe' caries a deeper meaning than just intellectual understanding, as in we trust in Him.

Nice try, but you have said that being Spiritually "made alive" is the result of your own 'physical belief, with your own physical belief being the cause of you being Spiritually "made alive".

Belief isn't physical. And it is the Holy Spirit Who makes me alive in Christ. This indwelling is a result of faith.

So, you can't use a bunch of small blurps with errors in them already to build something that not just a plain old bigger error.

Ok Alan. We'll call it a wrap.

Dave

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Agreed. It is by faith that we enter into this grace. Romans 5:1. Ephes. 2:8 says the same thing.

Romans 5:1; "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2; "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace..."

That faith is a gift given by God to those
"dead" whom God quickens from the dead, who were ungodly, as Abraham was, "without strength", "yet sinners", "enemies" of God, who received "death by sin", and we're under God's condemnation, "as sin has reigned unto death"

Romans 4:17b; "before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were."

Romans 5:6 "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."

5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

5:10 "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

5:12; "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

5:18; "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation..."

5:20b; "That as sin hath reigned unto death..."

Agreed. It is by faith that we enter into this grace. Romans 5:1. Ephes. 2:8 says the same thing.

Ephesians 2 says the same thing about it being the dead sinner being quickened to life by grace through faith, both of which are the gift of God, just as faith is the fruit of the Spirit, and like God commended his love love to the soul, all of which are said to make the saved soul His workmanship, not the lost soul's who is dead with no life.

Ephesians 2:1; "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

2:8; "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The grace to save through faith IS NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD.

9; "Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You teach works of belief or having faith and there has never been a Covenant of Works for salvation.

10; "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus"

Believe and be saved, that's the gospel.

"Believe and be saved" is the last thing the Bible would ever teach as being the gospel.

I Corinthians 15:1; "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2; "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation, by which Paul says those believers were "saved".

3 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4; "And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

It's all a gift from being placed into Christ, by the indwelling of the Holy spirit. It's a placing into, immersion, baptism by faith.

Baptism means placing into. out of time.

There is no 'baptism by faith' of any kind and baptism is never mentioned as having anything to do with salvation, other than what baptism pictures in a figure that Jesus Accomplished by His death, burial, and resurrection.

Jesus is the Savior, not any baptism, ever, in any way, shape, or form.

The Holy Spirit never baptized anything.

And their is no dead faith by a Spiritually dead sinner that quickens their dead soul to give their dead self the gift of Eternal Life.

Not unless you are God and the Perfect Son of God, Who gave His Perfect Life to Accomplish Eternal Life over death, by His death, burial, and resurrection from the dead.

Jesus did that and you could not and did not do that.
...

And, in addition, you'll have to go back and forget all about anything having to do with 'baptism', which is an immersion into and back up out of, having any association with an idea of being placed into and remaining.

Baptism never had any meaning like 'being placed into', ever, at any time.

That is as ridiculous an attempt to alter the meaning of that word as it is to say life comes from a rock, or that a Spiritually dead soul to God can decide to have Eternal Life, if they believe they want to.

The Bible said for the Jailer who was already under conviction for his sin, after what he'd come to be aware of by Paul's preaching the gospel, for him to "believe on the Lord, Jesus Christ", by which includes Jesus being the Lord by virtue of Him having had sins like those the Jailer wanted to be saved from THAT NAILED HIM TO THE CROSS AND CAUSED HIS DEATH, whereupon He was buried, and ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

REPENT OF YOUR SINS AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL IS THE BIBLE MASSAGE THAT JESUS DIED BECAUSE OF THE SINS OF LOST SOULS JUST LIKE YOUR SINS, AND GOD BURIED THOSE SINS AWAY IN CHRIST'S WORK OF ETERNAL SALVATION, AND ON THE THIRD DAY, JESUS ROSE VICTORIOUS AS HAVING ETERNAL LIFE OVER DEATH.

Nothing you've spoken of acknowledges that a lost sinner is under condemnation for their own sin, or presents any need or method of remedying or satisfying their debt of sin against God, personally, which will place them in an Eternal Lake of Fire.

You skip being a sinner who's sin Eternally Offends a Holy God and that Jesus is the Savior.

You just say "believe and be saved".

The devils believe.

The devils are not, nor ever will be, saved

 

[Van]

The merit (or lack their of) of "faith" is not found in the Greek word form, but in whether or not God credited that "faith" as righteousness. We see in the account of Abraham, that he trusted in God's promise, and would follow God's instructions, even when they seemed to run counter to His promise. The NT clearly teaches we must have a "faith like Abraham." Romans 4:16

Note that the form of the Greek word translated faith is a noun, genitive single female. And note it is preceded by the preposition "ek" meaning out from, or arising from, or based upon. In my opinion, this phrase refers, usually, to God's action of crediting our faith as righteousness, just as God did concerning Abraham's faith.

Consider these verses and let me know what you think:
Romans 3:26,
Romans 4:12, 16,
Romans 5:1
Romans 9:30, 32,
Romans 10:6
Romans 14:23
Galatians 2:16
Galatians 3:2, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 22, 24
Galatians 5:5
James 2:24.

I think scripture teaches that our "faith or belief" that counts, is our faith only when and if God credits our faith as righteousness.

 

[Dave...]

Romans 5:1; "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2; "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace..."

That faith is a gift given by God to those
"dead" whom God quickens from the dead, who were ungodly, as Abraham was, "without strength", "yet sinners", "enemies" of God, who received "death by sin", and we're under God's condemnation, "as sin has reigned unto death"

Romans 4:17b; "before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were."

Romans 5:6 "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."

5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

5:10 "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

5:12; "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

5:18; "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation..."

5:20b; "That as sin hath reigned unto death..."

Hi Alan

We enter into grace, and receive life, the gifts of grace, through faith, Ephesians 2:8. By faith, Romans 5:1-2. This is the correct understanding of those passages and fits perfectly with the verses that you quoted. You're stretching the context of grace to include faith, but we begin that life as a result of faith, always.

Ephesians 2 says the same thing about it being the dead sinner being quickened to life by grace through faith, both of which are the gift of God, just as faith is the fruit of the Spirit, and like God commended his love love to the soul, all of which are said to make the saved soul His workmanship, not the lost soul's who is dead with no life.

Ephesians 2:1; "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

2:8; "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The grace to save through faith IS NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD.

9; "Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You teach works of belief or having faith and there has never been a Covenant of Works for salvation.

10; "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus"

The grace is not of ourselves, it is a gift from God, by faith.

Grace =gift = not of yourselves. Through faith.

"Believe and be saved" is the last thing the Bible would ever teach as being the gospel.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

This is the gospel/life we preach...

Romans10: 8-14 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Seems Paul forgot the quickened part. Got grace? Need faith!

Get it, got it, good.

I Corinthians 15:1; "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2; "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation, by which Paul says those believers were "saved".

3 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4; "And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

The faith is already there, ("which you have received"), so I would expect the grace to be also.

There is no 'baptism by faith' of any kind and baptism is never mentioned as having anything to do with salvation, other than what baptism pictures in a figure that Jesus Accomplished by His death, burial, and resurrection.

Jesus is the Savior, not any baptism, ever, in any way, shape, or form.

If you're not placed into Christ, then you are not saved.

Galatians 3:26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The Holy Spirit never baptized anything.

Jesus is the baptizer. The Holy Spirit is the agent of that baptism, or placing into.

And their is no dead faith by a Spiritually dead sinner that quickens their dead soul to give their dead self the gift of Eternal Life.

Not unless you are God and the Perfect Son of God, Who gave His Perfect Life to Accomplish Eternal Life over death, by His death, burial, and resurrection from the dead.

Jesus did that and you could not and did not do that.

You're assuming that someone needs to be born again to believe, but Scripture doesn't teach that.

And, in addition, you'll have to go back and forget all about anything having to do with 'baptism', which is an immersion into and back up out of, having any association with an idea of being placed into and remaining.

Baptism never had any meaning like 'being placed into', ever, at any time.

1) Placed into 2) Immersed 3) dipped into.

That is as ridiculous an attempt to alter the meaning of that word as it is to say life comes from a rock, or that a Spiritually dead soul to God can decide to have Eternal Life, if they believe they want to.

Unwilling, or unable?

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

REPENT OF YOUR SINS AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL IS THE BIBLE MASSAGE THAT JESUS DIED BECAUSE OF THE SINS OF LOST SOULS JUST LIKE YOUR SINS, AND GOD BURIED THOSE SINS AWAY IN CHRIST'S WORK OF ETERNAL SALVATION, AND ON THE THIRD DAY, JESUS ROSE VICTORIOUS AS HAVING ETERNAL LIFE OVER DEATH

Nothing you've spoken of acknowledges that a lost sinner is under condemnation for their own sin, or presents any need or method of remedying or satisfying their debt of sin against God, personally, which will place them in an Eternal Lake of Fire.

You skip being a sinner who's sin Eternally Offends a Holy God and that Jesus is the Savior.

You just say "believe and be saved".

The devils believe.

The devils are not, nor ever will be, saved

Repent and believe and what happens? We enter into that grace, and have eternal life. Believe and be saved. The word 'saved' implies the sinner is lost, dead, under condemnation for their own sins, right?

Dave

 

[Dave...]

The merit (or lack their of) of "faith" is not found in the Greek word form, but in whether or not God credited that "faith" as righteousness. We see in the account of Abraham, that he trusted in God's promise, and would follow God's instructions, even when they seemed to run counter to His promise. The NT clearly teaches we must have a "faith like Abraham." Romans 4:16

Note that the form of the Greek word translated faith is a noun, genitive single female. And note it is preceded by the preposition "ek" meaning out from, or arising from, or based upon. In my opinion, this phrase refers, usually, to God's action of crediting our faith as righteousness, just as God did concerning Abraham's faith.

Consider these verses and let me know what you think:
Romans 3:26,
Romans 4:12, 16,
Romans 5:1
Romans 9:30, 32,
Romans 10:6
Romans 14:23
Galatians 2:16
Galatians 3:2, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 22, 24
Galatians 5:5
James 2:24.

I think scripture teaches that our "faith or belief" that counts, is our faith only when and if God credits our faith as righteousness.

Hey Van

The answer is right here in Romans 4

1-5 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

The righteousness that was credited/imputed/accounted is God's righteousness. That righteousness was credited/imputed/accounted to Abraham because of His faith. That's Jesus' righteousness...

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Why did it need to be credited/imputed/accounted to Him? Remember, the original manuscripts didn't have chapter and verse. Paul just finished telling of this answer just a few verses before in chapter three.

Romans 3:25-26 [Jesus]whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Which is why the writer of Hebrews said this about the heroes of faith in chapter 11, Abraham included.

Hebrews 11:39-40 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

they were waiting for Jesus, His death, resurrection and ascension. They were not yet justified, nor born again for that matter until that happened. In short, what was placed into Abrahams account was a future Jesus obeying the Law perfectly without sin. The righteousness of God.

Romans 5: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

Peace

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

"to everyone that believes: not to him that works for life, and in order to obtain a righteousness of his own; nor to the Jew only, but also to the Gentile, even to everyone, be who he will, that has faith in Christ; not that faith is either the matter, cause, or condition of righteousness, but this righteousness is only revealed unto, and received by the believer, and can only be pleaded by him, as his justifying righteousness. Moreover, this phrase is descriptive of the persons to whom Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, and suggests that for whomsoever he has fulfilled the law, in order to bring in for them a justifying righteousness, faith in consequence is given to them, to receive and embrace it, and enjoy all the comfort and privileges of it."

"the word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart"; which is to be understood...particularly of the Gospel, which holds forth those special blessings and promises of grace, pardon of sin, and circumcision of the heart, which are mentioned in the context, as what should be bestowed upon the people of the Jews in the latter days; and so is rightly applied by the apostle to the then dispensation, and is to be understood of the Gospel; which was nigh both in the ministration of it, by the apostles, to Jews and Gentiles, and in the application and experience of it; it was not only "in the mouth" of the preachers, but also of the hearers of it, by a hearty and sincere confession; and "in their hearts", being attended with the power of God, and received in the love of it, was truly believed in, and cordially embraced; that is, the word of faith.

"This phrase, , "the word of faith",...proposes Christ as the object of faith, and encourages souls to believe in him for life and salvation; and is also the means of begetting and implanting faith in the heart, and without it the preaching of it is of no avail: and it is further described by the ministration of it, which we preach."

Belief isn't physical.

Even the belief of the whosoever, in John 3:16, which was genuine Spiritual belief was "wrought in God"; as we see in John 3:21
"But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

And it is the Holy Spirit Who makes me alive in Christ.

Then why do you assert that it is your faith that gives you the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, since it is the Holy Spirit that makes you alive?

You're 'dead' and need to be made 'alive', so in that naturally dead Spiritual state of all lost souls, you Marshall the flesh that profits nothing, to birth yourself to have faith which causes the New Birth and Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and that makes you 'alive'?

You're not 'alive' and so you have 'faith' which gives you 'the indwelling of the Holy Spirit' and that then makes you 'alive'?

That's dead faith that could never exist and never has accomplished anything without the Holy Spirit to start with, even in a screwed up math equation.

This indwelling is a result of faith.

Romans 10:17
"So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God."

"So then faith comes by hearing,...." That is, by preaching; for the word hearing is used in the same sense as in the preceding verse; and designs the report of the Gospel, or the preaching of the word, which is the means God makes use of, to convey faith into the hearts of His people; for preachers are ministers, or instruments, by whom others believe:

"and hearing by the word of God"; or the command of God or Christ, which this properly signifies; and the sense is, that men preach the Gospel in obedience to the commandment of the Everlasting God, and according to the orders, mission, and commission, warrant and Authority, of the Lord Jesus Christ:"

from: Romans 10 Gill's Exposition

Obviously, 'believe' caries a deeper meaning than just intellectual understanding, as in we trust in Him.

It doesn't matter, if you don't know what a sinner is, who according to all the Bible, along with all of Ephesians and Romans, is incapable of doing good of any kind that is Acceptable to God and that includes generating 'faith', when their being is nothing but flesh and the flesh profits nothing.

And to proclaim a belief that the indwelling of the Spirit comes as a result of faith is crazy, since Jesus Christ is "the Author and Finisher of our faith."

Being the Author and Originator of faith, to make us HIS workmanship, Created in Christ Jesus, is the Business and Work of God.

"This is the Work of God that you believe".

Again, in John 3, God describes a sinner there, too,

3:18.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19; "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

21; "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

Natural lost man hates the light and does not come to the light and will not come to Jesus that they might have life, since there is none that does good, not one, UNLESS IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT MAKES LIFE.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Ephesians 2:8;
"For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

You're stretching the context of grace to include faith

So, you panic and fall back on your training, to always go with illiteracy anytime you're pressed to believe the most apparent contextual harmony between grace and faith, as there is between any other two words in the Bible.

You really want to try and utterly divorce the word 'grace' from the word 'faith', so that we can say 'grace' is the gift of God, but the means and methodology by which we obtain grace that is in the same phase, when God grants 'faith' to the unbeliever as His mechanism He Provides to give us a Spiritual Way to gain Spiritual Access to His grace, is not a gift, but is left up to the fickleness of man, who may decide to have 'faith' to acquire God's 'grace', or he may not?

'Grace' is the gift of God and when God gives that gift of 'grace', the 'faith' that is mentioned there in that same phase is not also a gift, at the same moment God would be using 'faith' to obtain access to that 'grace'", so 'grace' is not of ourselves, but 'faith' is, since those two words have to be entirely separated from any association between both of them being granted by God as His gift?, i.e., "For by grace are you saved through faith."

That's a stretch.
One more twisted stretch to a fake moon and back.

You're still setting aside the Sovereignty of God, the Word of God, the Law, the Gospel, sin, repentance, and God's Quickening Power which grants Eternal Life over Eternal death, when He gives Spiritual faith, to the Spiritually dead soul.

"You must be born again", doesn't say for a lost soul to "have faith to give birth to your own Born Again experience of salvation and begin your life of being a Partaker of the Divine Nature."

A wicked purifying wretched worm who's blind and can not even discern the things of the Spirit and who hates God can't change to color their skin or raise themselves out of the grave when dead.

You don't have that kind of All Mighty Power.

we begin that life as a result of faith, always.

All this talk exalts man, as being their own mother of their New Birth from Above, which doesn't ever happen in any other application on earth, but God and the New Testament writers exalt God as being the One Who Quickens the dead.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Dave...

Interesting.

He does use "faith" once in 1 John 5:4. This seems to be speaking of the ongoing part.

1 Joh 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

This means the believers Faith is born of God

 

[Dave G]

And John 1:13, we must also acknowledge that they believed first (verse 12). Not after, but before they were given the right to become sons of God, born again.

Let's look at it again, Dave, with more of the passage listed in order to see the context:

" There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.
9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, ( and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, ) full of grace and truth." ( John 1:6-14 )

 

[Dave G]

Now I'll give my understanding of it line by line so you can see how I'm reading it:

6) God sent John the Baptist to preach to Israel. He was the last of the Old Testament prophets, which we are told in other places ( including the next verse ) that he was sent to prepare the way for Jesus Christ's first coming.

7) John came to bear witness of the Light ( Jesus Christ ), so that all ( the word "men" is in italics, so was not part of the original text. It was added for continuity by the translators ) might believe. "All" who? We're not explicitly told here, are we? In addition, in Late Middle English, the word "might" here signifies purpose, not possibility.

8) John was not the Light, but was sent to bear witness of the Light, Jesus Christ.

9) Jesus was the true Light, which "lights" ( casts light on, or illuminates ) every man which comes into the world. Some say this means "enlightens", or "reveals Himself to"...I disagree because of passages like Matthew 11:25-27, Romans 11:7-11, Matthew 13:10-11, John 8:43-47 and others that tell me that God reveals Himself and the truth of His words to some and not to others, and the many appeals that Jesus makes when He tells the crowd, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear". There is a reason that some "hear", while others do not...that reason is, that those that "hear" are "of" God ( John 8:43-47 ).

10) Jesus was in the world and the world was made by Him ( this outright states His being a member of the Godhead, and that it was Jesus, God the Son, who created everything )... and the world ( the people of it ) did not know Him.

11) He came to His own ( Israel the nation ) and His own ( the Jews ) did not welcome Him.

12) But as many as did welcome Him, to them He gave power ( authority ) to become ( "begin to be". Some say this means "go from being lost to being saved", to which I do not agree ) the sons of God; Who are characterized by their belief on His name.

13) These same ones that did welcome Him and believe on His name were the ones that were not born of blood ( inheritance ), not born of the will of the flesh ( their own will ), nor were they born of the will of man ( other people's will )... they were born of God.

14) The Word ( see John 1:1 ) was made flesh and lived among "us" ( the disciples, among whom were Peter, James, John, etc ). They beheld His glory, that of the only begotten of the Father...full of grace and truth.

 

[Dave G]

So, based on how I understand verses 11, 12, and 13 ( and the entire chapter ), I clearly see that the reason the ones who welcomed Him did so, was because they were born again.

No, I do not acknowledge that they believed first and were born again after.
That some receiving Him is mentioned first, and their being born of God second, doesn't dictate the order to me.

That they were given the power to become ( begin to be ) the sons of God I see as being descriptive of God's elect, not conditional ( making salvation dependent upon something that dead sinners can do ).
That is why I hold that in order for salvation to be of grace and not of works ( Romans 11:5-6 ), everything towards a dead-in-trespasses sinner must be initiated and completed as a result of God's actions in and through them...
Not as a result of Him giving all men "a chance", and some choosing to take advantage of that "chance" and others not, as the theory of Prevenient Grace seems to say.

This is but one of the many places where I'm told why I received Him, my friend.

Not because of bloodline ( by inheritance, as some of the Jews believed because of their being physically descended from Abraham ), not because of my own will, not because of another person's will, but because I was born from above...born "of" God.

 

[Van]

Hey Van

The answer is right here in Romans 4

1-5 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

The righteousness that was credited/imputed/accounted is God's righteousness. That righteousness was credited/imputed/accounted to Abraham because of His faith. That's Jesus' righteousness...

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Why did it need to be credited/imputed/accounted to Him? Remember, the original manuscripts didn't have chapter and verse. Paul just finished telling of this answer just a few verses before in chapter three.

Romans 3:25-26 [Jesus]whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Which is why the writer of Hebrews said this about the heroes of faith in chapter 11, Abraham included.

Hebrews 11:39-40 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

they were waiting for Jesus, His death, resurrection and ascension. They were not yet justified, nor born again for that matter until that happened. In short, what was placed into Abrahams account was a future Jesus obeying the Law perfectly without sin. The righteousness of God.

Romans 5: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

Peace

1) No, once again, Dave, you seem unwilling to present what Romans 4 says. Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness, but Abraham's was not credited with righteousness.

2) The premise of our faith or belief depends on God considering our faith as valid for His purpose. Demons believe but God does not credit their faith as righteousness. The folks in Matthew 7 believed to a degree, they said "Lord, Lord" but their faith or belief did not result in obtaining the promise to those who "believe."

3) Yes God is the justifier of those whose faith He alone credits as righteousness.

4) Yes, the OT Saints were not made perfect until they underwent the washing of regeneration. No, what was credited to Abraham's faith was righteousness. You continue to confuse His faith being credited as righteousness, which is true, to Abraham being credited as righteousness which is false doctrine.

5) Yes when God credits a lost individuals faith as righteousness, He transfers the person into Christ where they undergo the washing of regeneration, making them alive together with Christ, fully justified, holy and blameless. Having been made perfect, having the righteousness of Christ as a spiritual child and sibling of Christ, they are a new creation, created for good works.

But none of the above addresses the actual issue, which is our faith does not save us, bu when God credits our faith as righteousness, God therefore monergistically saves us. . This is the simple truth, faith when credited as righteousness by God is according to grace not works, and therefore we are saved by grace through faith, not saved by grace then given faith.