In which verses does the NIV mess up the meaning?

[Van]

Summary of thread:

1) Mark 1:41 Jesus was indignant should read "moved with anger."
2) Ephesians 2:3 deserving of wrath should read "children of wrath."
3) 2 Thess. 2:13 to be saved should read "for salvation."
4) Titus 3:4 love should read "love for mankind."
5) James 2:5 to be rich in faith should read "yet rich in faith."
6) Rev. 13:8 before should read "from"
7) Rev. 22:21 be with God's people should read "be with all."
8) 1 Timothy 3:16 appeared in the flesh should read "revealed in the flesh."
9) John 1:16 does not seem any more flawed than many other translations, what the text actually says is "And out of His abundance we all also obtained grace against grace."
10) Isaiah 12:3 the omission of the conjunction should read "therefore"
11) 2 Thess. 3:6 who is idle should read "who leads an undisciplined life"
12) Colossians 1:28 the omission of "every man" (or every person) reduces the force of the teaching that the gospel is understandable to every person.​

 

[Rippon]

we have 12 examples of erroneous translation.

No, you cited eleven verses which you claim are inaccurate as rendered in the NIV. There has been no examination of your claims stating that you are correct in your assertions. MM agreed with some of your views. RSR and IntheLight differed with you on a number of your pronouncements. I agreed with you on two or three items. But the bulk of your complaints I have dealt with and you basically have had no substantive comeback. Back to the drawingboard you go. ;-)

 

[Van]

12 and counting...

 

[Rippon]

Summary of thread:

Mark 1:41 Jesus was indignant should read "moved with anger."
​

You are as hard to pin down as jelly on the wall. About two-plus years ago you argued for the opposite.

Colossians 1:28 the omission of "every man" (or every person) reduces the force of the teaching that the gospel is understandable to every person.

The NIV and some other translations have "teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ."

The verse is not universalistic. And it certainly does not counter the doctrine of the pervasive corruption of people.​

 

[Van]

Yes, I believe the verse (Mark 1:41) should read moved with compassion. But that view is based on accepting the generally accepted variant reading. The NIV used the less accepted variant (moved with anger) and then mistranslated the variant as "was indignant." Since we are not clogging the thread with differing source text issues, I listed the mistranslation of the variant.

Concerning Colossians 1:28 two problems manifest themselves - (1) every man (or every person) appears three times, but was omitted once in the NIV translation. (2) Every man (or every person) highlights each individual, whereas everyone addresses a group. And I did not identify this problem Martin did.

 

[Rippon]

Yes, I believe the verse (Mark 1:41) should read moved with compassion.

It's Van vs. Van. You held to the angry Jesus view for this text a little more than two years ago.

Concerning Colossians 1:28 two problems manifest themselves - (1) every man (or every person) appears three times, but was omitted once in the NIV translation. (2) Every man (or every person) highlights each individual, whereas everyone addresses a group. And I did not identify this problem Martin did.

The very same message is not compromised. The word everyone means each person. Perhaps you are forgetting basic English.

"It is he whom we proclaim as we admonish and wisely teach everyone, so that we may present everyone mature in the Messiah." (ISV)

"We proclaim Him, warning and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone mature in Christ." (HCSB)

 

[TCassidy]

"It is he whom we proclaim as we admonish and wisely teach everyone, so that we may present everyone mature in the Messiah." (ISV)

"We proclaim Him, warning and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone mature in Christ." (HCSB)

That can't possibly be right! If "everyone" means "every person without exception" then all people will be presented mature in Christ!

Unless, of course, "everyone" does not mean "everyone without exception" but means "every one of a certain group."

It looks to me like Van is arguing for Limited Atonement!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The NIV has :"...condemned sin in the flesh."

Ah! That would be the 2011 NIV. As I said, I don't have one of those.

2 Thess. 3:6
The NIV has "idle and disruptive."
The ESV has "walking in idleness"
ISV and NRSV have :"living in idleness"

The NET note says :"The particular violation Paul has in mind is idleness (as described in vv. 8-11), so this could be translated to reflect that."

peripateo atakos means to walk in a disorderly manner. It is especially used to describe soldiers walking out of line. In v.11, Paul gives two examples of this: 'not working at all' and being 'busybodies.' To translate the expression as 'walking in idleness' or whatever is not a good translation.

Well, your favorite translation (NKJV)has "grace for grace." The majority of translations has grace twice in this verse. Would you prefer the word favor instead?

NIV : "Out of his fulness we have all received grace in place of grace already given."

The NIV1984 translation says, 'From the fullness of his grace we have received one blessing after another' My point was that where the NIV says 'grace' it isn't in the text, and where it is in the text, the NIV doesn't have it.
The 2011 version still isn't right IMO, but I haven't time to address it.

This deals with Col. 1:28. The NIV has "fully mature in Christ."

NIV :"He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ."

NET notes:"Since Paul's focus is on the present experience of the Colossians, 'mature' is a better translation of (teleion) than 'perfect,' since the latter implies a future, eschatological focus."

"Men and women are clearly intended in this context."

'Mature' is OK, but when God looks at Christians judicially He sees no sin for Christ has taken it all away (1 John 3:5). Therefore 'perfect' is probably better here. My real objection to the the NIV rendering is how it breaks up what Paul is saying and does away with his triple repetition of 'every.'
'Him we preach, warning every man, and teach every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus' (NKJV). Much better! Unless of course one is a raging feminist and cannot accept the age-old English usage of 'man' to cover both male and female.

 

[Van]

That can't possibly be right! If "everyone" means "every person without exception" then all people will be presented mature in Christ!

Unless, of course, "everyone" does not mean "everyone without exception" but means "every one of a certain group."

It looks to me like Van is arguing for Limited Atonement!

Perhaps it is too much to expect folks to discern the difference between addressing a group and addressing the individuals comprising the group. Christ died for all mankind, not for the elect only. This is what scripture teaches over and over.

Summary, no matter how hard they try, they cannot defend the mistranslations identified in this thread. So they make non-germane assertions. You this and he that. But "deserving of wrath" remains a mistranslation. The omission of the third "every person" and addressing a group rather than individuals is a mistranslation. idol and disruptive is a mistranslation. So expect more misrepresentations to change the subject.

 

[TCassidy]

This is what scripture teaches over and over.

Only in your fevered dreams.

 

[TCassidy]

Summary, no matter how hard they try, they cannot defend the mistranslations identified in this thread. So they make non-germane assertions. You this and he that. But "deserving of wrath" remains a mistranslation. The omission of the third "every person" and addressing a group rather than individuals is a mistranslation. idol and disruptive is a mistranslation. So expect more misrepresentations to change the subject.

You seem to be saying you know a lot about translating Greek into English. How many years of Greek study did you do at the graduate and post graduate level?

 

[TCassidy]

Therefore 'perfect' is probably better here.

The Greek word τελειον means complete, mature, of full age. Even the word "perfect" means, thorough; complete; utter; mature, nothing lacking necessary to the whole.

I don't really see a problem with "mature" or "complete" or "perfect" as long as the reader understands what "perfect" actually means.

But I also agree and would prefer each and every "every" be included in the translation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I agree with you that teleios has a wjde semantic range and by no means should always be translated 'perfect.' But in Col. 1:28 I think it is a good rendering for the reasons I gave above.

BTW, it's maybe worth mentioning that in 2:10, the word translated 'complete' in most translations is not teleios but pepleromenoi, 'filled once and for all.'

BTW again, how does one get a Greek font on this board? Is there an easy way?

 

[Rippon]

it's maybe worth mentioning that in 2:10, the word translated 'complete' in most translations is not teleios but pepleromenoi, 'filled once and for all.'

NIV : brought to fullness
ESV : been filled
WEB : made full
Mounce,NRSV : come to fullness
GW : made you complete
Darby : are complete
NASU : made complete
CEB,NET,HCSB,ISV : have been filled

 

[TCassidy]

BTW again, how does one get a Greek font on this board? Is there an easy way?

Go to Control Panel and click on Clock Language and Region.
Click on Language
Click on Add a Language
From the list choose Greek
I recommend activating the Language Bar on the Task Bar.
You will be prompted to download the Greek font.

Then just click on the Language Bar and select Greek. And type away.

΅ορκσ λικε α ψηαρμ. ¨Δ

 

[Rippon]

'Him we preach, warning every man, and teach every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus' (NKJV). Much better! Unless of course one is a raging feminist and cannot accept the age-old English usage of 'man' to cover both male and female.

That is an idiotic statement. It is perfectly acceptable to not use "man" or "he" when reference is being made to people in general.
If you want to see real feminist versions then look at The New Testament and Psalms :An Inclusive Version (1995) and The Inclusive Bible (2007). Then come back to me and apologize. Your rhetoric is getting rather shrill and completely off the charts.

 

[Van]

You seem to be saying you know a lot about translating Greek into English. How many years of Greek study did you do at the graduate and post graduate level?

The forum rule about addressing the topic and not the poster seems to be being ignored. The idea that we should avoid the use of "you" in our posts. Here we get "you seem to be saying" followed by fiction, then "how many years did you..."

By the numbers:

1) Mark 1:41 Jesus was indignant should read "moved with anger."
2) Ephesians 2:3 deserving of wrath should read "children of wrath."
3) 2 Thess. 2:13 to be saved should read "for salvation."
4) Titus 3:4 love should read "love for mankind."
5) James 2:5 to be rich in faith should read "yet rich in faith."
6) Rev. 13:8 before should read "from"
7) Rev. 22:21 be with God's people should read "be with all."
8) 1 Timothy 3:16 appeared in the flesh should read "revealed in the flesh."
9) John 1:16 does not seem any more flawed than many other translations, what the text actually says is "And out of His abundance we all also obtained grace against grace."
10) Isaiah 12:3 the omission of the conjunction should read "therefore"
11) 2 Thess. 3:6 who is idle should read "who leads an undisciplined life"
12) Colossians 1:28 the omission of "every man" (or every person) reduces the force of the teaching that the gospel is understandable to every person. ​

[/INDENT]

 

[Rippon]

3) 2 Thess. 2:13 to be saved should read "for salvation."

5) James 2:5 to be rich in faith should read "yet rich in faith."
6) Rev. 13:8 before should read "from"
7) Rev. 22:21 be with God's people should read "be with all."
​

You are the only one advocating for your interpretation of the items above.

12) Colossians 1:28 the omission of "every man" (or every person) reduces the force of the teaching that the gospel is understandable to every person.

Although some here have argued for "everyone" three times in the verse --your rationale has not been embraced by anyone.​

 

[Van]

Many translations read "for salvation" including the NASB. So I am not the only one advocating for that position.

A few translations do not include or italicize "to be" in James 2:5, so I am not the only one advocating "rich in faith" is a complement of those chosen. See (1) Berean Literal Bible, (2) NASB95, (3) NASB77, (4) KJV, (5)Douay-Rheims, (6) Darby, (7) Webster's, and (8) YLT.

Almost all translations read "from" instead of "before" (excluding the NIV, ESV and NLT) at Revelation 13:8

And again, many translations read "be with all" (or be with you all) at Revelation 22:21, See ESV, NASB, KJV, NET, GW, Douay-Rheims, Webster's, and YLT.

The claim that I am the only one advocating for these positions is without foundation.

 

[TCassidy]

Here we get "you seem to be saying" followed by fiction, then "how many years did you..."

So, are you saying you have studied Greek at the graduate level or are you admitting you know absolutely nothing about Greek grammar and syntax?