Infants in Heaven

[convicted1]

Being given the ability to believe is not the same thing as giving the means to believe. For instance, when someone is on trial the lawyers give the jury the information needed to get them to believe, they are not reaching into their minds and implanting a supernatural belief. They have been given the ability to believe the truth, or they can exchange that truth and choose to believe the lie. At any rate, as our Lord says, let us reason together. This takes the ability to do just that.

I all honesty, this is a very good retort to my post...kudos!! :thumbsup:

However.....there's always a "but" or "however" in a debate isn't there?....man left in his fallen state, has not the faculties to believe. So yes, I know advocate a pre-faith regeneration, which I vehemently fought against for over six years. The natural can not receive the things of the Spirit, so it takes the Spirit to quicken him to understand what the preacher is conveying. This is where faith comes in.

 

[convicted1]

No, it's not cut and dried at all, because Paul himself implies that he believed unregenerate men could believe several times in scripture.

What I believe is meant by "natural man" is men who focus on the natural. The world is full of men who have no interest in religion or the things of God.

Other men are "spiritual" they take an interest in religion and spiritual matters. I believe this would describe Cornelius, the scriptures say he was a "devout" man who prayed always.

Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Cornelius would not fit the description of the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14. He did not think religion was foolish whatsoever, he feared God, prayed always, and did good works that proved his sincerity. But he was not saved, and he did not have the Holy Spirit, so he was not regenerated.

So, I believe in 1 Cor 2:14 Paul is speaking of "worldly" men, men who take no interest in spiritual or religious matters.

Very educated men are often like this, they think the scriptures are utter foolishness, they mock and laugh at the creation account, or stories of miracles.

And this is what I believe Paul is saying.

Brother, it doesn't say "worldly man" does not receive the thing of the Spirit, just that the natural man doesn't. If God hasn't done His work in a sinner's life first, that sinner can't do his. God first moves by enlightening him, quickening him, if you will, so that he can now receive them. Man is dead to righteousness and when God does His work, then man can do his, and not before.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I all honesty, this is a very good retort to my post...kudos!! :thumbsup:

However.....there's always a "but" or "however" in a debate isn't there?....man left in his fallen state, has not the faculties to believe. So yes, I know advocate a pre-faith regeneration, which I vehemently fought against for over six years. The natural can not receive the things of the Spirit, so it takes the Spirit to quicken him to understand what the preacher is conveying. This is where faith comes in.

Thats the crux of the arguement isn't it....man in his fallen state...is there enough goodness left in him to want a Christian life and my answer is no. In place of that committed Christian you have a carnal Christian who wears the mantel of Christianity on the surface but when you deeper, its not there....but that has been my observation as a self professed carnal Christian phony for 53 years. It was only through the saving grace of God that I could have had any clarity.....then the faith comes. Lastly, if you have not grieved your sins....I mean really suffered for them & asked yourself, "what was I thanking " I don't believe your there....but that's another conversation.

 

[webdog]

I all honesty, this is a very good retort to my post...kudos!! :thumbsup:

However.....there's always a "but" or "however" in a debate isn't there?....man left in his fallen state, has not the faculties to believe. So yes, I know advocate a pre-faith regeneration, which I vehemently fought against for over six years. The natural can not receive the things of the Spirit, so it takes the Spirit to quicken him to understand what the preacher is conveying. This is where faith comes in.

Yet another however

This is placing power in the fallen state of man over the Spirit that has given him the Word, the messenger of that Word, his conscience, his desire to never die, his circumstances pointing to Him, and creation. I believe the smallest molecule the Spirit provides is a gazillion times more powerful than the most fallen nature of man.

At any rate, we are talking about infants and I'll roll with your statement. You say the Spirit must give life to understand. Understanding also takes the mental faculty to do so, something an infant is incapable of.

Also, the Scripture in regards to the natural man is not in response to understanding the Gospel, but the deeper things of God a carnal believer was not getting due to living by the flesh. That phrase makes its rounds here daily and simply just does not apply to pre or post faith regeneration.

 

[webdog]

Thats the crux of the arguement isn't it....man in his fallen state...is there enough goodness left in him to want a Christian life and my answer is no. In place of that committed Christian you have a carnal Christian who wears the mantel of Christianity on the surface but when you deeper, its not there....but that has been my observation as a self professed carnal Christian phony for 53 years. It was only through the saving grace of God that I could have had any clarity.....then the faith comes. Lastly, if you have not grieved your sins....I mean really suffered for them & asked yourself, "what was I thanking " I don't believe your there....but that's another conversation.

The above bolded would be all of our answers. This does not mean we should give the edge to the fallen nature of man over the Spirit of God. The Gospel IS the regeneration of the Spirit, bringing life to the dead. Its just wrong to state the Holy Spirit has no power unless the Holy Spirit first regenerates to understand the Holy Spirit.

 

[OldRegular]

I all honesty, this is a very good retort to my post...kudos!! :thumbsup:

However.....there's always a "but" or "however" in a debate isn't there?....man left in his fallen state, has not the faculties to believe. So yes, I know advocate a pre-faith regeneration, which I vehemently fought against for over six years. The natural can not receive the things of the Spirit, so it takes the Spirit to quicken him to understand what the preacher is conveying. This is where faith comes in.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The above bolded would be all of our answers. This does not mean we should give the edge to the fallen nature of man over the Spirit of God. The Gospel IS the regeneration of the Spirit, bringing life to the dead.

What do you mean the "Edge" ....you have no "Edge" where God is concerned. Salvation is by Grace Alone (sola gratia). Your repeated insistence that salvation by grace alone PLUS human effort doesn't wash. When divine sovereignty is pushed aside to make room for human ability, a theological dislocation occurs that inevitably leads to the abandonment of orthodoxy.

Its just wrong to state the Holy Spirit has no power unless the Holy Spirit first regenerates to understand the Holy Spirit.

Ahhhhhh, ha ha ha...... REALLY!!! So, let me get this straight, saying that the sinner contributes nothing to their own salvation is WRONG to your way of thinking. So lets play this out. Salvation really isnt Gods work from beginning to end......we always have to factor in the human element back into the equation..... thats your Synergistic premise to salvation, not mine & I really RESENT YOU for saying that it is wrong (if thats what you are saying).

I spent many many years as a Roman Catholic & they can be nice people but the theology is extremely dangerous. And why, because they also buy into man contributing to his or her own salvation....... more so on a grandiose works level BUT even a little suggestion of humans inculcation in partnering with God to bring forth the persons salvation .... its deadly. If man contributes any essential part towards his salvation, he effectively becomes his own savior.

And thats the Doctrines of Grace (Monergistic) faith & we stand by it completely. As far as validate is concerned, well I can provide you a long list of people, scholars who would validate it as biblical. And now we are way way off topic.

 

[percho]

I all honesty, this is a very good retort to my post...kudos!! :thumbsup:

However.....there's always a "but" or "however" in a debate isn't there?....man left in his fallen state, has not the faculties to believe. So yes, I know advocate a pre-faith regeneration, which I vehemently fought against for over six years. The natural can not receive the things of the Spirit, so it takes the Spirit to quicken him to understand what the preacher is conveying. This is where faith comes in.

BTW I kind of agree with you.


that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith. From Gal 3:14 YLT

If whatever follows, "through," has not taken place then what precedes, "through," is impossible to have taken place.

The Spirit of promise is the conceiving sperm of life from God. Without it there will not be any eternal life. God is where life comes from. The living God. To be.

Therefore if I agree with you then there has to be a problem some where if my statement above is true which it is. The problem is our understand of the word faith, "the faith," in the passage above for the article is in the Greek.

Jesus a man who in less than twenty fours hours after stating the following will be dead. As dead as dead can be. Dead. Without life. Dead. Jesus said.
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

The Comforter is the promise of the Spirit. The faith through which that promise is given to man is relative to that statement by Jesus who is about to die.

This statement also has to be considered when one speaks of the Spirit as the conceiving sperm of life from God: 1 Peter 1:23 being begotten again, not out of seed corruptible, but incorruptible, through a word of God -- living and remaining -- to the age; 1 Peter 1:23 YLT

Is it the Spirit of promise or the incorruptible word of God which begets us and what does that have to do with the faith?

The incorruptible word of God which precedes as the oldest is the following.
Before the foundation of the world it was determined the Christ, the Anointed would shed his blood, die for redemption and this Christ would be as of a lamb without spot and without blemish, sinless. The Christ would be the Son of God born of a woman taken from a man created in the image of God who is yet to be created. This Son of God will die. The very opposite of the living God. Therefore God who cannot lie, before time began gave the promise, the hope of eternal life.

That is the incorruptible word of God by which the Spirit of promise will be given to men.

Faith, the faithfulness of God becomes a reality when the Son of God is obedient unto death even the death of the cross and has received the promise of God.

That is the faith through which the promise of the Spirit is received.
Through which the Comforter was sent.

'This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses; at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear; Acts 2:32,33 YLT

Faith is not something that wells up from within man that controls God.

Faith is the resurrected Jesus the Christ, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Eternal life.

The Spirit of adoption is given now and the adoption to whit (being born again) comes at the redemption of the body at the resurrection. Or Also.
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph 1:14
The glory of God is eternal life.
1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

The faith you heard of by which you received the Spirit not of any mental or physical works from you.

The faith came first, then the Spirit was given, but it has nothing to do with what an infant nor a ninety year old man thinks about anything. It is what God chooses do do.

 

[webdog]

What do you mean the "Edge" ....you have no "Edge" where God is concerned. Salvation is by Grace Alone (sola gratia). Your repeated insistence that salvation by grace alone PLUS human effort doesn't wash. When divine sovereignty is pushed aside to make room for human ability, a theological dislocation occurs that inevitably leads to the abandonment of orthodoxy.

1. Those that state regeneration precedes faith limit the power of God by giving the power to the fallen nature OVER God, giving the 'edge' to man.
2. Salvation by grace through faith isn't my doing, its Gods. I insist on believing Him. That is quite orthodox.

Ahhhhhh, ha ha ha...... REALLY!!! So, let me get this straight, saying that the sinner contributes nothing to their own salvation is WRONG to your way of thinking. So lets play this out. Salvation really isnt Gods work from beginning to end......we always have to factor in the human element back into the equation..... thats your Synergistic premise to salvation, not mine & I really RESENT YOU for saying that it is wrong (if thats what you are saying).

I have no idea what you are saying, to be honest. I have never said anything contrary to salvation being all God from start to finish. Grace is not opposed to effort, it is opposed to EARNING.

I spent many many years as a Roman Catholic & they can be nice people but the theology is extremely dangerous. And why, because they also buy into man contributing to his or her own salvation....... more so on a grandiose works level BUT even a little suggestion of humans inculcation in partnering with God to bring forth the persons salvation .... its deadly. If man contributes any essential part towards his salvation, he effectively becomes his own savior.

And thats the Doctrines of Grace (Monergistic) faith & we stand by it completely. As far as validate is concerned, well I can provide you a long list of people, scholars who would validate it as biblical. And now we are way way off topic.

The RC believe works are needed. Faith is NEVER a work. The pre faith regeneration group tries to turn faith into a work unless it is granted as a mysterious gift...but I vehemently reject that notion. Faith is not some magical pixie dust sprinkled on people. It is something we all have and all use every moment of every day. The object of faith saves, not the faith in itself.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

1. Those that state regeneration precedes faith limit the power of God by giving the power to the fallen nature OVER God, giving the 'edge' to man.

Oh boy :laugh: Where did you come up with that piece of nonsense?

2. Salvation by grace through faith isn't my doing, its Gods. I insist on believing Him. That is quite orthodox.

Thats your opinion....I beg to differ. Our faith has nothing to do with our eternal destiny but everything to do with the benefits to be had from obedience to the gospel here, now, in this realm.

Would you consider Martin Luther orthodox?
[/quote]

The RC believe works are needed. Faith is NEVER a work. The pre faith regeneration group tries to turn faith into a work unless it is granted as a mysterious gift...but I vehemently reject that notion. Faith is not some magical pixie dust sprinkled on people. It is something we all have and all use every moment of every day. The object of faith saves, not the faith in itself.

Magical pixie dust.... who in heavens name ever told you that ....:laugh:, I will have to remember that one

Hebrews 11:1

New International Version (NIV)

11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

 

[webdog]

Oh boy :laugh: Where did you come up with that piece of nonsense?

Explain how a logical conclusion can be just that and nonsense at the same time. Isn't it your contention before one can respond to the work of the Spirit they must first be made alive by the Spirit?

Thats your opinion....I beg to differ. Our faith has nothing to do with our eternal destiny but everything to do with the benefits to be had from obedience to the gospel here, now, in this realm.

To be blunt, denying faith is necessary for eternal salvation is the unorthodox position. The Bible is crystal clear we are only justified by faith, and life is only in Christ, and that through faith.

Would you consider Martin Luther orthodox?

Which doctrines?

Magical pixie dust.... who in heavens name ever told you that ....:laugh:, I will have to remember that one

Hebrews 11:1

New International Version (NIV)

11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

I believe I recall Luke2427 using the pixie dust reference. I liked it as that is the image I get from the pre faith regeneration understanding.

I don't want to derail this thread down the path of regeneration, pre or post faith. Getting to the verse you posted, how does an infant or unborn child exhibit confidence or an assurance in anything given THAT is what faith really is?

 

[percho]

Explain how a logical conclusion can be just that and nonsense at the same time. Isn't it your contention before one can respond to the work of the Spirit they must first be made alive by the Spirit?



To be blunt, denying faith is necessary for eternal salvation is the unorthodox position. The Bible is crystal clear we are only justified by faith, and life is only in Christ, and that through faith.

Which doctrines?



I believe I recall Luke2427 using the pixie dust reference. I liked it as that is the image I get from the pre faith regeneration understanding.

I don't want to derail this thread down the path of regeneration, pre or post faith. Getting to the verse you posted, how does an infant or unborn child exhibit confidence or an assurance in anything given THAT is what faith really is?

that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith. from Gal 3:14 YLT
for by grace ye are having been saved, through (the)* faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift, Eph 2:8 YLT, * I added the for it is in the Greek, TR

I guess I should do a poll.

Do you and any others agree that in both verses, "the faith," by construction must precede, "the promise of the Spirit," and, "by grace ye are having been saved"?

If no, why not?

I have said many times I know, no Greek.

 

[webdog]

that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith. from Gal 3:14 YLT
for by grace ye are having been saved, through (the)* faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift, Eph 2:8 YLT, * I added the for it is in the Greek, TR

I guess I should do a poll.

Do you and any others agree that in both verses, "the faith," by construction must precede, "the promise of the Spirit," and, "by grace ye are having been saved"?

If no, why not?

I have said many times I know, no Greek.

Most if not all Greek scholars agree 'that' in Eph. 2:8,9 refers back to the entire phrase 'by grace you have been saved through faith'...showing salvation to be the gift, not faith.

 

[percho]

The faith of God is regeneration.

and if there be no rising again of dead persons, neither hath Christ risen; for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen, and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins; 1 Cor 15:13,16,17 YLT

There is without a doubt some form of regeneration in rising from the dead and in the above passages without that regeneration faith is vain and or void.

The resurrected Christ is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Faith.

Without that faith we would still be in our sins.

And so would the infants to make this relative to the OP.

 

[percho]

Most if not all Greek scholars agree 'that' in Eph. 2:8,9 refers back to the entire phrase 'by grace you have been saved through faith'...showing salvation to be the gift, not faith.

No where did I say faith is the gift. Faith is the source of the gift by grace.
And in the case of the gift in the form of the Spirit brings with it the grace and faith of God, being the earnest of our inheritance. Salvation.

The question was must, "the faith," by construction precede the other?

 

[Winman]

Brother, it doesn't say "worldly man" does not receive the thing of the Spirit, just that the natural man doesn't. If God hasn't done His work in a sinner's life first, that sinner can't do his. God first moves by enlightening him, quickening him, if you will, so that he can now receive them. Man is dead to righteousness and when God does His work, then man can do his, and not before.

That is simply wrong and not scriptural. To be "quickened" means to be made spiritually alive, which cannot happen until your sins are forgiven.

But don't take my word for it, read this in scripture for yourself.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Here Paul explains what to be quickened means, it means to be forgiven all your trespasses or sins. And no man is forgiven his sins until he first believes on Jesus, we are justified by faith.

This verse shows that being quickened or regenerated follows faith.

God doesn't quicken you so that you can believe and be justified. God provides the gospel which enables a man to believe, and when the man believes his sins are forgiven and he is then quickened or regenerated.

You used to know the truth, but somewhere you went off the tracks.

 

[Winman]

Brother, it doesn't say "worldly man" does not receive the thing of the Spirit, just that the natural man doesn't. If God hasn't done His work in a sinner's life first, that sinner can't do his. God first moves by enlightening him, quickening him, if you will, so that he can now receive them. Man is dead to righteousness and when God does His work, then man can do his, and not before.

You are correct, the scripture does not say "worldly man", but that would be the modern equivalent for "natural man" or "carnal man". It means a man who's preoccupation is with matters of the world, a man who is not interested in spiritual or religious matters.

Cornelius was not described as a natural man, scripture says he was "devout". This is a man who takes great interest in spiritual and religious matters.

Those 3000 persons who accepted Christ at Pentacost were also described as "devout" Jews.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

I believe this is where Calvinism especially often makes a serious mistake. They take a term like "natural man" in 1 Corinthians 2:14 and apply it to all men, when it is only speaking of certain men.

If all men are "natural men" then WHO are these "devout" men spoken of in scripture? According to Calvinism no such men exist, but scripture repeatedly speaks of them. And those "devout" Jews in Jerusalem in Acts 2 did not have the indwelling spirit. So these were unregenerate men, but they took sincere and serious interest in God and religion just as Cornelius did.

Cornelius was not saved, and he did not have the Holy Spirit, but he does not fit the description of the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14 whatsoever. Cornelius did not think religion or the "things of God" were foolish, scripture says he was devout, he feared God, he prayed always, and gave much alms to the people. He received what he was told and obeyed.

Scripture does not show that all men are "natural men".

And I believe this is why folks misinterpret Romans 8 as well, not all men are "carnal" or "fleshly" men. Cornelius was not carnal or fleshly, he believed in God, and he obeyed God's commands given him by the angel.

Calvinism conveniently overlooks these "devout" men shown many times in scripture.

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

As you see here, as Paul traveled, he entered a synagogue and preached the scriptures, it says he "reasoned" with them, and some believed.

But note there were many "devout" Greeks, and a great multitude of these religious Greeks believed on Jesus.

So, I do not believe the scriptures are teaching that all men are "natural men". Natural men are men who are not interested in God or religion. Devout men are interested in God and religion.

 

[percho]

That is simply wrong and not scriptural. To be "quickened" means to be made spiritually alive, which cannot happen until your sins are forgiven.

But don't take my word for it, read this in scripture for yourself.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Here Paul explains what to be quickened means, it means to be forgiven all your trespasses or sins. And no man is forgiven his sins until he first believes on Jesus, we are justified by faith.

This verse shows that being quickened or regenerated follows faith.

God doesn't quicken you so that you can believe and be justified. God provides the gospel which enables a man to believe, and when the man believes his sins are forgiven and he is then quickened or regenerated.

You used to know the truth, but somewhere you went off the tracks.

Are those who are dead in trespasses and sins the same as those dead in sins and uncircumcision of heart?

Just to make it relative to the OP, what would be your best guess, as to the greatest amount of the passing of time, that has occurred in the history of man from birth to when that one born became dead in sins and the uncircumcision of his heart? One hour, one day, a week, a month, a year, 3 years.

When that one, becomes, dead in sins and the uncircumcision of heart would that one then be considered by God to be in unbelief?

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7

Do we receive the Comforter because we believe something or is the Comforter sent because Jesus went away?

John 16:13,14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, (the Comforter) is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


Do you think the Spirit of Truth who is sent because Jesus went away has anything to do with one who is in unbelief, an unbeliever becoming a believer, in belief?

What is the faith by which the unbeliever became a believer?

 

[Alcott]

Rhetorical question:
If you don't want your kid (very young) to go to hell, why isn't murdering the kid the best way to assure such will not be the case?

Corollary:
Are we really aware that, by allowing a kid to 'grow up,' we are subjecting said kid to the possibility of damnation, whereas by killing the kid very early in life-- that is, of course, if we assume a kid who can't even talk yet cannot be guilty of sin-- there is a guarantee against it?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith. from Gal 3:14 YLT
for by grace ye are having been saved, through (the)* faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift, Eph 2:8 YLT, * I added the for it is in the Greek, TR

I guess I should do a poll.

Do you and any others agree that in both verses, "the faith," by construction must precede, "the promise of the Spirit," and, "by grace ye are having been saved"?

If no, why not?

I have said many times I know, no Greek.

Ahhhhh bingo:thumbsup: Thats his belief........from the top cause dont know if I am being understood or misunderstood.

Paul said in Ephesians 2:1, “And you hath he quickened (made alive or born again), who were dead in trespasses and sins” Who did the quickening? The Lord did. We were dead in depravity but through the process of “regeneration” we are now alive in Jesus Christ. The capability is now in us to see the Kingdom of God, to enter the Kingdom, to believe, have faith and hope, exhibit love and kindness. That capability was not there before but now it is. You are born again…you are alive.