Infants in Heaven

[percho]

Rhetorical question:
If you don't want your kid (very young) to go to hell, why isn't murdering the kid the best way to assure such will not be the case?

Corollary:
Are we really aware that, by allowing a kid to 'grow up,' we are subjecting said kid to the possibility of damnation, whereas by killing the kid very early in life-- that is, of course, if we assume a kid who can't even talk yet cannot be guilty of sin-- there is a guarantee against it?

I have wondered how many we saved when we dropped the big ones?

 

[Winman]

Are those who are dead in trespasses and sins the same as those dead in sins and uncircumcision of heart?

Yes.

Just to make it relative to the OP, what would be your best guess, as to the greatest amount of the passing of time, that has occurred in the history of man from birth to when that one born became dead in sins and the uncircumcision of his heart? One hour, one day, a week, a month, a year, 3 years.

Well, the Jews believed 13 was generally a good age for a young man to learn the law and become accountable, age 12 for girls. I believe this is very reasonable.

What is your reason for asking?

When that one, becomes, dead in sins and the uncircumcision of heart would that one then be considered by God to be in unbelief?

Yes, isn't disobedience always a form of unbelief?

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7

Do we receive the Comforter because we believe something or is the Comforter sent because Jesus went away?

Well, Jesus had to go away for the Comforter to come, but only believers received the Holy Spirit, read John 7:38-39.

John 16:13,14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, (the Comforter) is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


Do you think the Spirit of Truth who is sent because Jesus went away has anything to do with one who is in unbelief, an unbeliever becoming a believer, in belief?

Well, you cannot believe what you do not know. The word of God is Spirit. But men are not zapped with belief. A man must choose to believe the word of God or reject it, God does not believe for you.

Those persons who believe on Jesus receive the promise of the Holy Spirit.

What is the faith by which the unbeliever became a believer?

Their OWN faith. God does not believe for you.

You are really hung up on this "the faith" thing aren't you?

 

[Winman]

Rhetorical question:
If you don't want your kid (very young) to go to hell, why isn't murdering the kid the best way to assure such will not be the case?

Corollary:
Are we really aware that, by allowing a kid to 'grow up,' we are subjecting said kid to the possibility of damnation, whereas by killing the kid very early in life-- that is, of course, if we assume a kid who can't even talk yet cannot be guilty of sin-- there is a guarantee against it?

Sure, and if you rob banks you won't have to work for a living. Does that make it a "good" idea?

 

[webdog]

Ahhhhh bingo:thumbsup: Thats his belief........from the top cause dont know if I am being understood or misunderstood.

Paul said in Ephesians 2:1, “And you hath he quickened (made alive or born again), who were dead in trespasses and sins” Who did the quickening? The Lord did. We were dead in depravity but through the process of “regeneration” we are now alive in Jesus Christ. The capability is now in us to see the Kingdom of God, to enter the Kingdom, to believe, have faith and hope, exhibit love and kindness. That capability was not there before but now it is. You are born again…you are alive.

That passage does not say the quickening was to have faith, you are adding that to the equation. You are correct, though, we are alive IN Christ...via faith, never apart.

 

[quantumfaith]

I have wondered how many we saved when we dropped the big ones?

I hope you are not serious.

 

[Aaron]

I hope you are not serious.

Why? It has to be asked.

 

[percho]

Yes.



Well, the Jews believed 13 was generally a good age for a young man to learn the law and become accountable, age 12 for girls. I believe this is very reasonable.

What is your reason for asking?



Yes, isn't disobedience always a form of unbelief?



Well, Jesus had to go away for the Comforter to come, but only believers received the Holy Spirit, read John 7:38-39.



Well, you cannot believe what you do not know. The word of God is Spirit. But men are not zapped with belief. A man must choose to believe the word of God or reject it, God does not believe for you.

Those persons who believe on Jesus receive the promise of the Holy Spirit.



Their OWN faith. God does not believe for you.

You are really hung up on this "the faith" thing aren't you?

Not really because for my salvation Jesus the Christ the Son of the living God died for my sins and God his Father raised him from the dead, gave him the promise of the Holy Spirit which was then shed on me, therefore my faith is not vain.

My sins have been forgiven and I have been declared righteous by the faith of Christ and am a begotten child of God.

 

[kyredneck]

1. Those that state regeneration precedes faith limit the power of God by giving the power to the fallen nature OVER God, giving the 'edge' to man.....

Webdog, this makes no sense. Those that state faith (man's choice is what you mean) brings about regeneration limit the power of God, not what you're saying. You've got it backwards, you need to rethink this.

 

[Alcott]

Sure, and if you rob banks you won't have to work for a living. Does that make it a "good" idea?

Nobody said anything about "a good idea" in this. But logically it is true that your child has no possibility of going to hell if s/he dies very young, but does have that possibility if you let him/her grow up-- that is, IF a very young child cannot be guilty of sin. Do you logically disagree?

Yet couple that tenet with "once saved/always saved" and you cannot go to hell for committing murder if you kill your child. If both those beliefs are correct... that's the end of any debate about the reasoning. If both are not... then "the ball's in your court."

But "good idea?" No, either way. But you just have to measure age v. eternity. There are quite a few 'ideas' that aren't good for one or the other-- starting with Jesus dying on the cross.

 

[kyredneck]

Nobody said anything about "a good idea" in this. But logically it is true that your child has no possibility of going to hell if s/he dies very young, but does have that possibility if you let him/her grow up-- that is, IF a very young child cannot be guilty of sin. Do you logically disagree?

Logically, this is along the lines of sacrificing your child to Molech.

Yet couple that tenet with "once saved/always saved" and you cannot go to hell for committing murder if you kill your child. If both those beliefs are correct... that's the end of any debate about the reasoning. If both are not... then "the ball's in your court."

But "good idea?" No, either way. But you just have to measure age v. eternity. There are quite a few 'ideas' that aren't good for one or the other-- starting with Jesus dying on the cross.

Jim Jones couldn't have reasoned this scenario any better.

 

[Alcott]

Logically, this along the lines of sacrificing your child to Molech.

Yes or No: Can a young child, between conception and 1 year, be guilty of sin?

Jim Jones couldn't have reasoned this scenario any better.

Yes or No: Is eternal security of the believer a true doctrine?
Yes or No: Will a saved parent who murders his infant go to hell?
Yes or No: Will the infant in the above question go to eternal life?

 

[kyredneck]

Yes or No: Can a young child, between conception and 1 year, be guilty of sin?

I don't know, but I don't think so. God is good, so I really don't worry about it.

Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain unto it. Ps 139:6

Yes or No: Is eternal security of the believer a true doctrine?

Yes.

Yes or No: Will a saved parent who murders his infant go to hell?
Yes or No: Will the infant in the above question go to eternal life?

Not putting you down, but this is my gut sincere thoughts to this:

Jehovah, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty; Neither do I exercise myself in great matters, Or in things too wonderful for me. Ps 131:1

I simply cannot imagine any sane, sound Christian doing such a thing. I'll leave it to God.

 

[percho]

Nobody said anything about "a good idea" in this. But logically it is true that your child has no possibility of going to hell if s/he dies very young, but does have that possibility if you let him/her grow up-- that is, IF a very young child cannot be guilty of sin. Do you logically disagree?

Yet couple that tenet with "once saved/always saved" and you cannot go to hell for committing murder if you kill your child. If both those beliefs are correct... that's the end of any debate about the reasoning. If both are not... then "the ball's in your court."

But "good idea?" No, either way. But you just have to measure age v. eternity. There are quite a few 'ideas' that aren't good for one or the other-- starting with Jesus dying on the cross.

That in bold has caused me to give some thought concerning the righteousness of God.

One would not be judged for another. Or the son shall not die for the sin of the father or the father for the sin of the son. For all will die in their own sin.

However God brings forth a man child Son born of woman. That Son is sinless and so being never the less is obedient unto death, even the death on the cross. Therefore God, his Father gives this sinless Son who gave his life for others the promise of God. The hope of eternal life.

The resurrection to life to die no more becomes the righteousness of God for the faith/faithfulness of Jesus the Christ his Son. Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Matt 25:29

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. Luke 22:42


The sinless Son of God is the only one who could redeem but that redemption required obedience unto death even the death of the cross. And scripture states Jesus the Christ learned obedience and became obedient.

 

[webdog]

Webdog, this makes no sense. Those that state faith (man's choice is what you mean) brings about regeneration limit the power of God, not what you're saying. You've got it backwards, you need to rethink this.

Trust me, I've thought and rethought it plenty. Accepting a gift in no way limits the gift nor the gift giver. The recipient is completely passive.

The Gospel is a work of the Spirit. Preachers are the work of the Spirit. Everything man needs to accept the gift are works of the Spirit. The prefaith regeneration crowd believes there is absolutely no power in all of these many works of the Spirit to reach a sinful man UNLESS another work of the Spirit is done. This makes no sense and makes mans sinful nature more powerful in resisting the Spirit.

 

[percho]

I don't know, but I don't think so. God is good, so I really don't worry about it.

Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain unto it. Ps 139:6



Yes.



Not putting you down, but this is my gut sincere thoughts to this:

Jehovah, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty; Neither do I exercise myself in great matters, Or in things too wonderful for me. Ps 131:1

I simply cannot imagine any sane, sound Christian doing such a thing. I'll leave it to God.

The very reason I do not concern myself with infants and I do not believe in age of accountability Jesus said except a man be born again/from above he can not enter the kingdom of God.

I am going to let God worry about the birth of those infants and my own also being a man has naught to do with his own birth.

 

[percho]

Trust me, I've thought and rethought it plenty. Accepting a gift in no way limits the gift nor the gift giver. The recipient is completely passive.

The Gospel is a work of the Spirit. Preachers are the work of the Spirit. Everything man needs to accept the gift are works of the Spirit. The prefaith regeneration crowd believes there is absolutely no power in all of these many works of the Spirit to reach a sinful man UNLESS another work of the Spirit is done. This makes no sense and makes mans sinful nature more powerful in resisting the Spirit.

Hear is a thought that just came to me.

In the classical sense of Baptist thought. Was Paul going down the Roman Road unto salvation?

Did Paul think he was a sinner? Was Paul seeking God. Was Paul worried about if he died that night where his soul would be the next day?

Paul wasn't on the Roman Road, Paul was on the road to Damascus to put Christians in prison or to have them put to death.

God the Father through his Son Jesus the Christ called, saved, and gave him the Holy Spirit of promise.

Period. Paul through no exercise of his own went from being ignorant in unbelief unto belief.

Prove to me from scripture anything other than that took place.

 

[webdog]

Hear is a thought that just came to me.

In the classical sense of Baptist thought. Was Paul going down the Roman Road unto salvation?

Did Paul think he was a sinner? Was Paul seeking God. Was Paul worried about if he died that night where his soul would be the next day?

Paul wasn't on the Roman Road, Paul was on the road to Damascus to put Christians in prison or to have them put to death.

God the Father through his Son Jesus the Christ called, saved, and gave him the Holy Spirit of promise.

Period. Paul through no exercise of his own went from being ignorant in unbelief unto belief.

Prove to me from scripture anything other than that took place.

Paul thought he was doing the work OF God! When he was thrown from the horse and blinded he was told to go into the city to wait. Was he unable to respond to that? Did he obey...and did he have a choice to obey? Did he receive the Holy Spirit at that moment...or three days later? What took place from the road until Ananais visited him?

Was he saved by grace through faith or not?

 

[webdog]

The very reason I do not concern myself with infants and I do not believe in age of accountability Jesus said except a man be born again/from above he can not enter the kingdom of God.

I am going to let God worry about the birth of those infants and my own also being a man has naught to do with his own birth.

Do you maintain a human can be justified apart from faith? You say you do not concern yourself with it, but isn't that a pretty important thing to not be concerned about?

 

[convicted1]

Do you maintain a human can be justified apart from faith? You say you do not concern yourself with it, but isn't that a pretty important thing to not be concerned about?

If faith came from man, babies dying in infancy would die helpless and hopeless. If faith is a gift of God, then God has the ability to give them this faith, regenerate them, and take them to heaven. I hold to the latter, and not the former....

 

[convicted1]

That is simply wrong and not scriptural. To be "quickened" means to be made spiritually alive, which cannot happen until your sins are forgiven.

But don't take my word for it, read this in scripture for yourself.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Here Paul explains what to be quickened means, it means to be forgiven all your trespasses or sins. And no man is forgiven his sins until he first believes on Jesus, we are justified by faith.

This verse shows that being quickened or regenerated follows faith.

God doesn't quicken you so that you can believe and be justified. God provides the gospel which enables a man to believe, and when the man believes his sins are forgiven and he is then quickened or regenerated.

You used to know the truth, but somewhere you went off the tracks.

This that I sized up was totally uncalled for and also unnecessary. :tear: