Irresistible Grace, John 6:37

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
If Jesus Christ died for ALL men why is it that ALL mankind is not saved?



Are you now restricting Salvation to those who actually saw the physical person of Jesus Christ?

Not exactly.

I am just trying to understand if you believe that seeing the physical Jesus Christ is necessary for Salvation. Your response below seems to indicate you don't!

Ever hear the song about keeping your eyes on Jesus. We look on Jesus when we believe in Him. This happens with the mind's eye not physcial eyes.

So now you are waxing metaphorical!

You do keep your eyes on Jesus don't you?

Is that another metaphorical question? Most often I bow my head and keep my eyes closed. We once had an associational missionary who wanted folks to look at him when he led in prayer????

You do look to Jesus when you worship or pray. You look to Jesus when trouble comes we all do that.

Most certainly MB! I always look to God when I worship or trouble comes. I have found that relying on free will is not too swift!

So why do you question it?, Or try to make it seem like a physcial action.
MB

I was simply trying to understand if you believe one must see the physical Jesus Christ in order to be saved. I thought you attempted to put the matter to rest above but you apparently think not! After all it was you who made the following claim:

Of course not and the Bible and myself never make such claims. You quote right up to the good part of the chapter and neglect one of the most important parts. Like most calvinist you only see the part you can use to support your mistaken theology. Why not quote this too;
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

It says clearly that everyone that looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
So! either Jesus Christ did not die for ALL mankind; or the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ was not effective for ALL mankind; or the free will of man is Sovereign? Which one is correct FAL?

Your refusing to look at the truth of it and that's the truth. It's sort of like not being able to see the forest for the trees.

I thought we were talking about Salvation here, not forests and trees. We got to get on the same page!

You are so convinced that you are absolutely right it's almost a conceded thought.

Does that mean you are not convinced you are right?

Christ died for the whole world, the Bible says so and you say that ain't so.

Then why is it that not all are saved. Was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ ineffective?

You're in denial of the truth. You keep telling your self to redefine even the words of scripture to make it fit the nonsense you accept.

And just where did you get your degree in Psychiatry or Psychology?

Originally Posted by OldRegular
If neither is correct why do some believe and some do not? What makes your free will better than that of others?

Some believe and some don't because of individual acceptance of Christ. There is nothing special about either one.

That clears everything up MB. That is a most profound statement. Some believe and some don't because "Some believe and some don't".

God is no respector of persons. We either believe or die in hell.
MB

I hold a very high view of FAITH. We are justified by FAITH!

 

[Yeshua1]

Because all do not choose to be saved. It is called free will.

Which we no longer have since the fall!

 

[Luke2427]

Ah yes!! More corporate "double speak". Look, Calvinism is continually seeking to reinvent the wheel. When the term "Irresistible Grace" was shot down, the term "effectual calling" came to the forefront. Then when "Limited Atonement" was blown to pieces, then they ushered in the term "Particular Redemption". They speak outta both sides of their mouth, if'n you ask me.

You know, Willis, this is VERY TRASHY unless you can provide substantial proof of what you claim here.

Show where a reputable Calvinist EVER taught that irresistable grace meant that sinners could never resist the grace or Spirit of God.

No reputable Calvinist has EVER claimed that to my knowledge.

The idea is that when God intends to save by grace, at that moment, it is irresistable.


This is further proof that people like you resist something that you know very little about.

This is why seminaries exist. Not because everybody must have them to be knowledgeable about theology. No. There are some very bright, very studious people out there who can get by without them.

But because there are so many people like you, Winman and Van who DO NEED THEM DESPERATELY.

This accusation of double-speak without substantiation is pure trash and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

I don't care if you accuse us of double-speak if you provide evidence of it- but for you to just make such a claim totally without warrant is very trashy.

 

[Yeshua1]

If Jesus Christ died for ALL men why is it that ALL mankind is not saved?



Are you now restricting Salvation to those who actually saw the physical person of Jesus Christ?

actually, doesn't ONLY calvinism , in regards to salvation, teach that Jesus death really did secure salvation for at least some?

Doesn't non cal ststae that His deatj meant any could be saved, but since up to us to accept/reject, not really securing any to get saved?

 

[Winman]

This is why seminaries exist. Not because everybody must have them to be knowledgeable about theology. No. There are some very bright, very studious people out there who can get by without them.

But because there are so many people like you, Winman and Van who DO NEED THEM DESPERATELY.

See, there's your problem Willis, you are stupid. This is why you cannot understand contradictions and illogical fallacies.

You need a good education at a Reformed seminary, then you will be able to believe all sorts of nonsensical stuff.

 

[Yeshua1]

See, there's your problem Willis, you are stupid. This is why you cannot understand contradictions and illogical fallacies.

You need a good education at a Reformed seminary, then you will be able to believe all sorts of nonsensical stuff.

Many who hold to DoG went to places like Dallas theological Seminary... When did that place become reformed?

 

[Yeshua1]

You know, Willis, this is VERY TRASHY unless you can provide substantial proof of what you claim here.

Show where a reputable Calvinist EVER taught that irresistable grace meant that sinners could never resist the grace or Spirit of God.

No reputable Calvinist has EVER claimed that to my knowledge.

The idea is that when God intends to save by grace, at that moment, it is irresistable.


This is further proof that people like you resist something that you know very little about.

This is why seminaries exist. Not because everybody must have them to be knowledgeable about theology. No. There are some very bright, very studious people out there who can get by without them.

But because there are so many people like you, Winman and Van who DO NEED THEM DESPERATELY.

This accusation of double-speak without substantiation is pure trash and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

I don't care if you accuse us of double-speak if you provide evidence of it- but for you to just make such a claim totally without warrant is very trashy.

Think that MANY of us here know that we heard about jesus quite awhile, and then in Gods sovereign time, right place/time, everything "clicked", and made sense to trust in jesus, believe in him and got saved!

 

[Van]

The point I was making from the verse is that God works all things according to the purpose of his will not just somethings, but all things, hence all things that happen, happen because they are worked by him, and they are worked by him according to the purpose of his will.

Yes, this is exactly my point. If God's will is to allow us to make autonomous choices, life or death, then this verse does not support exhaustive determinism, but rather supports the non-Calvinism view.

What your citations proved were the innumerated points which I did not challenge. Therefore, you proved "a" the innumerated points, then claimed you proved "b" exhaustive determinism.

Calvinism teaches salvation is by compulsion, irresistible grace ring a bell. Folks with no ability to seek God and trust in Christ are altered such that they willingly seek God and trust in Christ.

Is it a "conclusion" that the inheritance was predestined based on Ephesians 1:11? Nope, just read it, it says it plain as day. But lets review. When a person is placed in Christ, they are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. I assume you agree with that fundamental truth. The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge of our inheritance. I assume you agree with that fundamental truth. And just what is our inheritance which God pledges, our redemption as God's own people. Now I will type this very slowly, because God gives His pledge of our inheritance, our inheritance is predestined by God. Now I just know you will find some way to deny this oh so obvious truth.

Words have meaning. Scripture say God sets before us the "choice" of life or death. If we can only choose death because of total spiritual inability, then choice must be redefined as meaning non-choice. Not what scripture says. Do you really not know where scripture says God sets before us the choice of life or death. And you are unable to Google it? Not credible.

In summary, Calvinism teaches God predestines all things, including sin, making Him the author of sin. However, they then say, God is not the author of the sin He predestines. This is an illogical absurdity and reveals Calvinism false bottom. It is a house build on sand in a wadi.

 

[MB]

I thought we were talking about Salvation here, not forests and trees. We got to get on the same page!

Does that mean you are not convinced you are right?

No it means I'm convinced you are wrong.

Then why is it that not all are saved. Was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ ineffective?

No it did what it was meant to do and that was to make Salvation avaliable to everyone.

And just where did you get your degree in Psychiatry or Psychology?

The Word of God is sufficent for every problem. Just ask the Word and see.

That clears everything up MB. That is a most profound statement. Some believe and some don't because "Some believe and some don't".



I hold a very high view of FAITH. We are justified by FAITH!

I can agree with this though it is not our faith but that of Jesus Christ even though we our selves believe that we might be saved by the faith of Christ.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

MB

 

[MB]

What your citations proved were the innumerated points which I did not challenge. Therefore, you proved "a" the innumerated points, then claimed you proved "b" exhaustive determinism.

Calvinism teaches salvation is by compulsion, irresistible grace ring a bell. Folks with no ability to seek God and trust in Christ are altered such that they willingly seek God and trust in Christ.

Is it a "conclusion" that the inheritance was predestined based on Ephesians 1:11? Nope, just read it, it says it plain as day. But lets review. When a person is placed in Christ, they are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. I assume you agree with that fundamental truth. The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge of our inheritance. I assume you agree with that fundamental truth. And just what is our inheritance which God pledges, our redemption as God's own people. Now I will type this very slowly, because God gives His pledge of our inheritance, our inheritance is predestined by God. Now I just know you will find some way to deny this oh so obvious truth.

Words have meaning. Scripture say God sets before us the "choice" of life or death. If we can only choose death because of total spiritual inability, then choice must be redefined as meaning non-choice. Not what scripture says. Do you really not know where scripture says God sets before us the choice of life or death. And you are unable to Google it? Not credible.

In summary, Calvinism teaches God predestines all things, including sin, making Him the author of sin. However, they then say, God is not the author of the sin He predestines. This is an illogical absurdity and reveals Calvinism false bottom. It is a house build on sand in a wadi.

Yes, this is exactly my point. If God's will is to allow us to make autonomous choices, life or death, then this verse does not support exhaustive determinism, but rather supports the non-Calvinism view.

Hi Van. RB should know that man is not a thing.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

Well, of course.

Iconoclast is confronted with scripture, and he....sleeps.

the weak article offers scripture that has been refuted,many times already, so i can....:sleeping_2:

reformed baptist just listed dozens of verses you cannot begin to grasp...

You have lost all credibility

 

[Iconoclast]

Because all do not choose to be saved. It is called free will.

If you want to continue with this false idea.....Then Jesus does not actually save.

 

[freeatlast]

If you want to continue with this false idea.....Then Jesus does not actually save.

Of course He saves, but He has to be permitted to do it. He does not save against a persons will. God's election and man's free will choice unto salvation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Of course He saves, but He has to be permitted to do it. He does not save against a persons will. God's election and man's free will choice unto salvation.

permitted????? no wonder we cannot agree

 

[OldRegular]

Of course He saves, but He has to be permitted to do it. He does not save against a persons will. God's election and man's free will choice unto salvation.

You correctly state [for a change] that God does not save against a persons will. The will of the unregenerate man is in bondage to sin and Satan; you mistakenly believe you have free will. God must change that will and He does.

 

[OldRegular]

permitted????? no wonder we cannot agree

It is embarrassing sometimes Icon to read that people put their so-called free will on the same level as the will of Sovereign God.

 

[OldRegular]

Which we no longer have since the fall!

That is the truth.

 

[Skandelon]

It is embarrassing sometimes Icon to read that people put their so-called free will on the same level as the will of Sovereign God.

:laugh: That is one of the funniest things I've read hear in quite sometime. Thanks for the laugh!

 

[OldRegular]

actually, doesn't ONLY calvinism , in regards to salvation, teach that Jesus death really did secure salvation for at least some?

Doesn't non cal ststae that His deatj meant any could be saved, but since up to us to accept/reject, not really securing any to get saved?

I believe you have hit the nail [or should I say "freewill"] on the head!