Irressistible Grace #2

[atpollard]

It just so happens that most often the elect ' are saved.

"Just so happens"? "Most often"?
The word translated "elect" is [G1588] ἐκλεκτός eklektós, ek-lek-tos'; select; by implication, favorite:—chosen, elect.

Here is EVERY verse containing the word [G1588]. Please point out the "elect" that was not "saved" or the "saved" that is not "elect":

• [Mat 22:14 NASB] 14 "For many are called, but few [are] chosen."[G1588]
• [Mat 24:22, 24, 31 NASB] 22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect[G1588] those days will be cut short. ... 24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.[G1588] ... 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[G1588] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
• [Mar 13:20, 22, 27 NASB] 20 "Unless the Lord had shortened [those] days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect,[G1588] whom He chose, He shortened the days. ... 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.[G1588] ... 27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect[G1588] from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
• [Luk 18:7 NASB] 7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect[G1588] who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
• [Luk 23:35 NASB] 35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen[G1588] One."[G1588]
• [Rom 8:33 NASB] 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect?[G1588] God is the one who justifies;
• [Rom 16:13 NASB] 13 Greet Rufus, a choice[G1588] man[G1588] in the Lord, also his mother and mine.
• [Col 3:12 NASB] 12 So, as those who have been chosen[G1588] of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
• [1Ti 5:21 NASB] 21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of [His] chosen[G1588] angels, to maintain these [principles] without bias, doing nothing in a [spirit of] partiality.
• [2Ti 2:10 NASB] 10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen,[G1588] so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus [and] with [it] eternal glory.
• [Tit 1:1 NASB] 1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen[G1588] of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
• [1Pe 1:1 NASB] 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen[G1588]
• [1Pe 2:4, 6, 9 NASB] 4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice[G1588] and precious in the sight of God, ... 6 For [this] is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE[G1588] STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER [stone,] AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." ... 9 But you are A CHOSEN[G1588] RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR [God's] OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
• [2Jo 1:1, 13 NASB] 1 The elder to the chosen[G1588] lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, ... 13 The children of your chosen[G1588] sister greet you.
• [Rev 17:14 NASB] 14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him [are the] called and chosen[G1588] and faithful."

 

[atpollard]

Try looking in the mirror on the bad fruit thing.
MB

Without a doubt.
However in this case I am more guilty of expressing myself badly rather than "malice".

I said "Feel free to continue to bare bad fruit even grafted into the True Vine if you think that you can", but the emphasis was not intended to be on "Feel free to continue to bare bad fruit even grafted into the True Vine if you think that you can", rather I intended to place the emphasis on "Feel free to continue to bare bad fruit even grafted into the True Vine if you think that you can". My point was not that YOU bear bad fruit (I do not think that you do), rather my point was that unsaved men bare bad fruit before they are saved (grafted into the True Vine of Jesus) and cannot bare bad fruit after they are grafted into Jesus (even if they wanted to, which they will not desire to).

It was meant more theoretical "one" and I mis-expressed it as far too personal "you".
I apologize for the unintended insult.
I ask your forgiveness.

 

[atpollard]

You can be chosen and elect to scoop horse droppings.

Please provide the Scripture on someone being chosen/elect ([G1588] ἐκλεκτός) to scoop horse droppings.

 

[atpollard]

That is why every time scriptures mentions chosen or ELECT we ask CHOSEN for what? Elect for WHAT?

You must be answering that question incorrectly. I posted every verse that mentions "chosen/elect" and it does NOT mean what you claim "chosen" means. Feel free to review them.

 

[MB]

Without a doubt.
However in this case I am more guilty of expressing myself badly rather than "malice".

I said "Feel free to continue to bare bad fruit even grafted into the True Vine if you think that you can", but the emphasis was not intended to be on "Feel free to continue to bare bad fruit even grafted into the True Vine if you think that you can", rather I intended to place the emphasis on "Feel free to continue to bare bad fruit even grafted into the True Vine if you think that you can". My point was not that YOU bear bad fruit (I do not think that you do), rather my point was that unsaved men bare bad fruit before they are saved (grafted into the True Vine of Jesus) and cannot bare bad fruit after they are grafted into Jesus (even if they wanted to, which they will not desire to).

It was meant more theoretical "one" and I mis-expressed it as far too personal "you".
I apologize for the unintended insult.
I ask your forgiveness.

You were forgiven before you asked
MB

 

[atpollard]

Why? From the Calvinist perspective Why would God have to Blindfold a Dead Man? If God has to use delusion are they not capable? If you are totally incapable of believing the truth why would delusion be necessary?

God affirms that God gives and takes in Matthew:

• [Mat 13:12 NASB] 12 "For whoever has, to him [more] shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
• [Mat 25:29 NASB] 29 "For to everyone who has, [more] shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.

God explains why in Romans 1:

• [Rom 1:18, 24, 26, 28 NASB]
  
• 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, ...
  
• 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. ...
  
• 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, ...
  
• 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

 

[Scott Downey]

"So God sends delusions on the wicked to make them believe the LIE to bring about their complete destruction. They will die without mercy."

Why? From the Calvinist perspective Why would God have to Blindfold a Dead Man? If God has to use delusion are they not capable? If you are totally incapable of believing the truth why would delusion be necessary?

No. We read clearly why. The delusion is a punishment ON the one capable. "because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

They did not love the truth. What is the TRUTH? ---->THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. The sanctification comes in the truth--->through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.


This again points that THE TRUTH was meant to SAVE THEM and God had their salvation in mind.

What is the LIE? Look at it. --->they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

That is a heavy implication that it was offered. That is a heavy implication that "THEY MIGHT BE SAVED" Is what they chose not to believe.

Well, the LIE is the DEVIL, if you read the whole chapter, the devil has setup some kind of authority on the earth at that time. So they believe and prefer the LIE of the DEVIL, instead of what Christ's gospel says. God has no plans to save those people, God sends a strong DELUSION so they do believe the Devil's lies because they enjoy their wicked ways. You saying of God blinding the dead just makes them live out in themselves their own evil ways and doings. This is like God giving people over to a reprobate mind to do evil things. God is not going to intervene and stop them from destruction, no intention of saving them who are the reprobate.

You know that unless God gives you eyes to see and ears to hear, you will remain as your born, blind and deaf to spiritual truths. And your going to have a reprobate mind. It is why there are so many false religions. The spiritually blind and deaf are that way by nature of being born as a creature of the flesh, and not born as a new creation of the Spirit.

 

[Barry Johnson]

The jews are the chosen . Not before the foundation mind . But a nation elected for a purpose .

 

[Barry Johnson]

"Just so happens"? "Most often"?
The word translated "elect" is [G1588] ἐκλεκτός eklektós, ek-lek-tos'; select; by implication, favorite:—chosen, elect.

Here is EVERY verse containing the word [G1588]. Please point out the "elect" that was not "saved" or the "saved" that is not "elect":

• [Mat 22:14 NASB] 14 "For many are called, but few [are] chosen."[G1588]
• [Mat 24:22, 24, 31 NASB] 22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect[G1588] those days will be cut short. ... 24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.[G1588] ... 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[G1588] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
• [Mar 13:20, 22, 27 NASB] 20 "Unless the Lord had shortened [those] days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect,[G1588] whom He chose, He shortened the days. ... 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.[G1588] ... 27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect[G1588] from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
• [Luk 18:7 NASB] 7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect[G1588] who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
• [Luk 23:35 NASB] 35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen[G1588] One."[G1588]
• [Rom 8:33 NASB] 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect?[G1588] God is the one who justifies;
• [Rom 16:13 NASB] 13 Greet Rufus, a choice[G1588] man[G1588] in the Lord, also his mother and mine.
• [Col 3:12 NASB] 12 So, as those who have been chosen[G1588] of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
• [1Ti 5:21 NASB] 21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of [His] chosen[G1588] angels, to maintain these [principles] without bias, doing nothing in a [spirit of] partiality.
• [2Ti 2:10 NASB] 10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen,[G1588] so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus [and] with [it] eternal glory.
• [Tit 1:1 NASB] 1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen[G1588] of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
• [1Pe 1:1 NASB] 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen[G1588]
• [1Pe 2:4, 6, 9 NASB] 4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice[G1588] and precious in the sight of God, ... 6 For [this] is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE[G1588] STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER [stone,] AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." ... 9 But you are A CHOSEN[G1588] RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR [God's] OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
• [2Jo 1:1, 13 NASB] 1 The elder to the chosen[G1588] lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, ... 13 The children of your chosen[G1588] sister greet you.
• [Rev 17:14 NASB] 14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him [are the] called and chosen[G1588] and faithful."

Mainly the elect ( Jews ) are currently not believing . These are God's elect ,who are in unbelief.

 

[atpollard]

Mainly the elect ( Jews ) are currently not believing . These are God's elect ,who are in unbelief.

Since you have so carefully ignored EVERY New Testament Scripture on the "chosen/elect" [G1588], I will give your non-scriptural opinion all the consideration it deserves.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Since you have so carefully ignored EVERY New Testament Scripture on the "chosen/elect" [G1588], I will give your non-scriptural opinion all the consideration it deserves.

Nope. Think ' chosen for what? or ' Elected to do what ? Notice most verses immediately follow what they are chosen for. They will literally include ' servant ' or service in the same passage . Context does not fit your doctrine. Sure the isolated buzz word ' chosen ' matches your doctrine.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Since you have so carefully ignored EVERY New Testament Scripture on the "chosen/elect" [G1588], I will give your non-scriptural opinion all the consideration it deserves.

You are throwing a doctrine into a word. Elect , Election , chosen, predestination, ect are words not doctrines.

 

[utilyan]

Well, the LIE is the DEVIL, if you read the whole chapter, the devil has setup some kind of authority on the earth at that time. So they believe and prefer the LIE of the DEVIL, instead of what Christ's gospel says. God has no plans to save those people, God sends a strong DELUSION so they do believe the Devil's lies because they enjoy their wicked ways. You saying of God blinding the dead just makes them live out in themselves their own evil ways and doings. This is like God giving people over to a reprobate mind to do evil things. God is not going to intervene and stop them from destruction, no intention of saving them who are the reprobate.

You know that unless God gives you eyes to see and ears to hear, you will remain as your born, blind and deaf to spiritual truths. And your going to have a reprobate mind. It is why there are so many false religions. The spiritually blind and deaf are that way by nature of being born as a creature of the flesh, and not born as a new creation of the Spirit.

"You know that unless God gives you eyes to see and ears to hear, you will remain as your born, blind and deaf to spiritual truths. And your going to have a reprobate mind. "

Right so what does sending strong delusion accomplish? utter nonsense.. blindfold a blindman.

What is the lie of the Devil? Lets see what Scripture says:

2 Thessalonians 2

8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.


10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.


Its sounds quite obvious the truth would save them if they believed.

Because they did not believe God sends delusion

11For this reason God will send


because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.<----11For this reason God will send



8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish,

WHY? <<<-----because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.



It doesn't say they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved--> BECAUSE--> God sent them delusion->because they were chosen reprobates from the foundation of the world.


Heres the challenge I given in other threads ARE THEY TELLING THE TRUTH or LIE?

The unbeliever says No God will not save me. "the truth so as to be saved."


Imagine everyone believed it. Everyone loved and accept the truth. What happens? They all get saved.

In a world where everyone believes the TRUTH, there it is. ALL ARE SAVED.

Imagine a world where NNE believes the truth. None get saved.

What is the LIE? the Lie is THE TRUTH WONT SAVE YOU. He doesn't believe the truth. he gets the punishment of delusion.

So ask yourself is the Reprobate a Liar or is he honest?

IF a "reprobate" asks Can I receive the love of the truth so as to be saved? No he gets a different "truth" Jesus did not die for him?

12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

"judged who did not believe the truth"

The guy who is damned is so for not believing a "LIE" that Jesus died for him?
Here Calvinist and NON are divided. NON believe Jesus did die for even the damned fellah.

Answer this question Is The guy who is damned, is so, for not believing a "LIE" that Jesus died for him?

The Calvinist can't call it the "TRUTH" because then that would admit Jesus died for him. Because it is a TRUTH that would have saved him "the truth so as to be saved."

 

[atpollard]

I said ...

Here is EVERY verse containing the word [G1588]. Please point out the "elect" that was not "saved" or the "saved" that is not "elect":

You responded ...

Mainly the elect ( Jews ) are currently not believing . These are God's elect ,who are in unbelief.

Nope. Think ' chosen for what? or ' Elected to do what ? Notice most verses immediately follow what they are chosen for. They will literally include ' servant ' or service in the same passage . Context does not fit your doctrine. Sure the isolated buzz word ' chosen ' matches your doctrine.

You are throwing a doctrine into a word. Elect , Election , chosen, predestination, ect are words not doctrines.

... [crickets chirp]
Still waiting for you to point out ONE VERSE from EVERY VERSE containing [G1588] “elect” where the "elect" was not "saved" or the "saved" is not "elect".

I am reading the scripture that you are ignoring for your talking points.

 

[atpollard]

Right so what does sending strong delusion accomplish? utter nonsense.. blindfold a blindman.

How sad that you reject what scripture says because it “does not make sense to you”.
I hope God will open your eyes, because nothing else can.

 

[atpollard]

IF a "reprobate" asks Can I receive the love of the truth so as to be saved? No he gets a different "truth" Jesus did not die for him?

A reprobate will not ask that question. That is the part that you fail to grasp.

• [John 3:19-20 NASB] "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.”
• [John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
  
• [John 10:26 NASB] 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
• [1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB] But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
  
• [2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB] And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

The reprobate is content in his sin and would not ask a “foolish” question about something that he could never “understand” and would want no part of the Light even if he did understand.

God says so, so do not believe me, but please, believe God.

 

[Salty]

Six hour hour warining
This thread will be closed no sooner than 400 am edt / 100 am pst

 

[Sai]

Elect as in the redeemed.


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[Barry Johnson]

I said ...


You responded ...






... [crickets chirp]
Still waiting for you to point out ONE VERSE from EVERY VERSE containing [G1588] “elect” where the "elect" was not "saved" or the "saved" is not "elect".

I am reading the scripture that you are ignoring for your talking points.

You missed my point election happens in time not before the foundation of the world .

 

[Salty]

Six hour hour warining
This thread will be closed no sooner than 400 am edt / 100 am pst

This thread is closed