Is 1 John 2:2 Really a defence of Universal Atonement?

[Brother Bob]

Well that's what you have got Him doing from one end of your doctrine to the other. To think God is going to cast to hell those who He loves & sent Christ to save. But He loves them.

This is a false statement!!!

 

[LeBuick]

Well that's what you have got Him doing from one end of your doctrine to the other. To think God is going to cast to hell those who He loves & sent Christ to save. But He loves them.

God's not sending anyone to hell, if one goes to hell he goes on his own. God is offfering a gift, and his gift is eternal life to all that will accept his gift.

 

[Jarthur001]

For the life of me I can not believe God spoke out of both sides of His mouth James.

1 Timothy,
chapter5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I agree.....

AND VERY GOOD POINT............

Now...

We have seen that the word all can mean "all mankind."

You do not believe the verses you posted carry that meaning

But... the word CAN mean all mankind.


Now lets look at these..


Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mark 10:45
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Is there any way in the world that these verses can mean ALL THE WORLD?


REVIEW.....

For the life of me I can not believe God spoke out of both sides of His mouth James.

Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mark 10:45
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Can they mean all the world?

the others could...but you do not think they do.

Can these verse in matt and mark mean all the world?

 

[jne1611]

This is a false statement!!!

Well you say He loves them now. He will cast them to hell later!

 

[Jarthur001]

I see the Bible how it was written. It's all I have to go by when understanding my God. He sent his son to die for the sin's of the World (Jn 3:16). I take this act of giving at face value.

Is the goal of God to save all mankind? I can't tell if you are saying yes...or no

 

[Brother Bob]

Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mark 10:45
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Sadly James; All did not believe.

 

[jne1611]

God's not sending anyone to hell, if one goes to hell he goes on his own. God is offfering a gift, and his gift is eternal life to all that will accept his gift.

I guess sinners will jump into the lake of fire on judgment day. No they will be cast there & they don't cast themselves there. And Satan don't cast them there. He is already there by the time they get there.
Psa 73:18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.

 

[Brother Bob]

Is the goal of God to save all mankind? I can't tell if you are saying yes...or no

His Will is that all be saved.

His did not set out to make it His goal for He gave man a choice in the matter. If it were His goal then all would be saved. God can do anything He wants and He did do what He wanted by making man subject to vanity.

Tell me something James; Do you draw flies or what. First there was Dale and now you got another just like him.

 

[Brother Bob]

I guess sinners will jump into the lake of fire on judgment day. No they will be cast there & they don't cast themselves there. And Satan don't cast them there. He is already there by the time they get there.
Psa 73:18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.

God never hated His creation until they did evil. You got that!

 

[Jarthur001]

Sadly James; All did not believe.

That is right...

However these verses are talking about the Christ Life that He gave.

This is all about the WORK OF CHRIST on the cross.

It is not about who believes.

This is His death...right? Who did Christ die for?

For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

So....did Christ give his life for ALL or many?

 

[LeBuick]

I guess sinners will jump into the lake of fire on judgment day. No they will be cast there & they don't cast themselves there. And Satan don't cast them there. He is already there by the time they get there.
Psa 73:18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.

Naw, they wouldn't dive on in so they may need a push. I say they go on their own because one must work to go to hell. For the wages of sin is death. One works for wages so if you earned the wage of death then you worked for it. God gives gifts, no worky for a gift, they are freely given.

The problem is the gift was rejected. All those who reject the gift will earn the wage of death and unfortunately, become eternal fuel for the fire... Can you imagine a fire hit enough to consume hell? :BangHead:

 

[Allan]

Allan,

The following was left off of my last post:

Spurgeon argued against interpreting the word "World" and "All" the sameway in every passage:

"Now, that looks like a very, very great argument indeed on the other side of the question. For instance, look here. "The whole world is gone after Him." Did all the world go after Christ? "Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children," and "the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does "the whole world" there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were "of God?" The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile."
taken from: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0181.htm

First, "World" means the whole world where contexts dictates, just like "All".
And I used a portion of Spurgeons sermon stating if it says what it says, then it is what it is. I admit I probably used to broad a statement and should have narrowed it. Now let us see again what one of those rarely's are:

1 Tim 2:3-6

1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Pertaining to my posting of #144

Spurgeon did not HOLD to the doctrince that Christ died for All - However He WOULD NOT try to rephase or redefine the words of scripture where it was explict what those words ment. So he said these "ALL's" in 1 Timothy mean just what they say. He goes on to say in his sermon: "I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God...

I agree Christ has redeemed some of all sorts.
Redeemed - (dictionary) To save from a state of sinfulness and its consequences.

But He atoned for All that whosoever would beleive, may be saved (redeemed).

 

[Allan]

Hello there brother Jauthor,
At it again I see... :laugh:

Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mark 10:45
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Let us start with Matthew 20: 28 and deal with the context rather than just a portion of the scripture.

Just prior to these words was the altercation of those who would be greatest in thy Kingdom. (KEY: IN THY KINGDOM) So we see this is in regard to future tense. Then Jesus says if one will be great he must be the others servant. (Another KEY: Who is Jesus speaking to. Disciples/saved- well almost :thumbs: )
And then Jesus says this is what His purpose is and to give His life as ransom for many. To stay consistant with the dialog Christ was simply stating what they will have to do to be considered Great in the future Kingdom - where Many were ransomed. Those the atonement was applied to, since it is the atoning blood that was the ransom.

Now let us deal with Mark 10:45 - Oh wait, we did :thumbs:

 

[Allan]

>>>deleted<<<

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan,

Hello there brother Jauthor,
At it again I see... :laugh:

Yes i seem to have this habit of believeing the Bible.

Just prior to these words was the altercation of those who would be greatest in thy Kingdom. (KEY: IN THY KINGDOM) So we see this is in regard to future tense. Then Jesus says if one will be great he must be the others servant. (Another KEY: Who is Jesus speaking to. Disciples/saved- well almost :thumbs: )
And then Jesus says this is what His purpose is and to give His life as ransom for many. To stay consistant with the dialog Christ was simply stating what they will have to do to be considered Great in the future Kingdom - where Many were ransomed. Those the atonement was applied to, since it is the atoning blood that was the ransom.

Lets try again on this one Allan...

I thought in the future Kingdom ALL within the Kingdom were ransom. Are you now saying some that go into the future Kingdom will not be ransomed? Just how do they get there?

Allan, do me a big favor and tell us what the word ransom means. (lutron)

Also the worded applied. You use this word a lot. Just what did Christ work on the cross do? Did it pay for sins THEN or later?

 

[Brother Bob]

I couldn't get back on last night so I couldn't answer you James so I saved it and posted it this morning.

That is right...

However these verses are talking about the Christ Life that He gave.

This is all about the WORK OF CHRIST on the cross.

It is not about who believes.

This is His death...right? Who did Christ die for?

For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

So....did Christ give his life for ALL or many?

Yes, and I told you before that the atonement was made for all and presented unto the Father but we must believe in order to

receive that atonement and make it complete.

So you can see "ransom for all" and also "ransom for many". You can see that can't you James:?

So the ransom for all is "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that Whosoever believeth on should not

perish, but have eternal life".

The ransom for many is After you have heard the word of truth the Gospel of your Salvation, and after you have BELIEVED,

then are you sealed with the Spirit of the Holy Promise. The many is a number that no man can number James but they did

something "special", they BELIEVED.

 

[2BHizown]

Got any Scripture that says that John 3:16 is not really the "whole" world? Or preach the Gospel to ever creature and he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved?
Why preach to every creature is they don't even have a chance?

Hey, dont stop reading with that verse but continue on the next few verses for clarification where it clearly says that 'he that believeth not is condemned already'. Those who do not respond to the word are either not elect or they are elect and will be brought to faith in Christ at a later time, determined only by God, or, of course they may not be of the elect at all and totally reject Him, choosing their own damnation!
Why preach to every creature?
1) Because we are commanded to do so.
2) Because no one but God knows who the elect are and when we preach to all inclusively we are preaching to elect and non elect, being used by God to reach His chosen ones! What could be better? We are the means God uses to reach those He brings to faith in Himself!

 

[Blammo]

Hey, dont stop reading with that verse but continue on the next few verses for clarification where it clearly says that 'he that believeth not is condemned already'. Those who do not respond to the word are either not elect or they are elect and will be brought to faith in Christ at a later time, determined only by God, or, of course they may not be of the elect at all and totally reject Him, choosing their own damnation!
Why preach to every creature?
1) Because we are commanded to do so.
2) Because no one but God knows who the elect are and when we preach to all inclusively we are preaching to elect and non elect, being used by God to reach His chosen ones! What could be better? We are the means God uses to reach those He brings to faith in Himself!

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Don't we all start out "condemned already"? You were not saved before you believed, right?

 

[Brother Bob]

Hey, dont stop reading with that verse but continue on the next few verses for clarification where it clearly says that 'he that believeth not is condemned already'

This supposed to be a secret that the unbeliever is condemned?

 

[Jarthur001]

I couldn't get back on last night so I couldn't answer you James so I saved it and posted it this morning.



Yes, and I told you before that the atonement was made for all and presented unto the Father but we must believe in order to

receive that atonement and make it complete.

So you can see "ransom for all" and also "ransom for many". You can see that can't you James:?

So the ransom for all is "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that Whosoever believeth on should not

perish, but have eternal life".

The ransom for many is After you have heard the word of truth the Gospel of your Salvation, and after you have BELIEVED,

then are you sealed with the Spirit of the Holy Promise. The many is a number that no man can number James but they did

something "special", they BELIEVED.

Believeing must happen...indeed. But I think you fail to see my point. Believeing is aside from Christ work on the cross. What you are saying is Christ work was done on the cross....and then we must believe in order for it to be applied.

Notice the part in red above is apart from the work of Christ in the cross.

The part in blue is what the text is talking about. Christ GAVE his life. This is apart from the believeing. Now lets look at the verse again..

For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

When Christ gave his life..was it for all or many?